For digital, any real diff. b/t Video8 and Digital8

[ColKurtz]

I have a Sony TRV-350. I've had it over a year, but only started using it recently after we had our first kid. I've quickly run through the 2 HI8/Digital8 tapes that I picked up with the camera and have started to look around for deals on new tapes.

While doing so, I have run across a few sites that claim there's really not much difference between Video8 and Hi8/Digital8 for digital recording purposes. Some claim that there will be less dropped frames on the Digital8 tapes, and that the higher quality D8 media can survive repeated play/dubbing better.

Just wanted to run it by this forum, since it's more active than many other. Is there really that much of a difference (again, for digital recording -- I know there are difference for analog).

TIA.

[ofbarea]

With 8mm tapes you only will be able to record in SP mode. This means that a 120 min 8mm tape will allow you to record 60 minuets of D8 video but the recording may not be compatible with other cameras.

If you use Hi8 tapes you will be able to record in LP mode. This way a 120 min Hi8 tape will allow you to record 90 minutes of D8 video. For SP recording in Hi8 tapes, playback compatibility is ensured. For LP recording the video may not play in other machines.

Because of the 8mm compatibility problem if your camera breaks, you may not be able to recover your movies.

On the other hand if you create DVDs after shooting your videos , the compatibility problem should not be an issue.

[edDV]

Here is a quick overview of the issues.

basics here: http://www.mediacollege.com/video/format/Mini-DV-D8.html

MiniDV and Digital8 record digital to tape using an analog modulation process. Hi8 tape (SP mode) allows a higher analog signal to noise (stronger signal) thus is less subject to stream dropouts and effects of minor tape path misallignment. In simpler words, it will record a more robust signal than normal 8mm blanks.

That isn't to say a 8mm blank won't work well, it just means the 8mm media is more prone to playback errors especially if the tape is played back on a different camcorder or one that has "gone out of alignment" after a few years of use.

For these reasons, Hi8 should be used for important recordings that you want to keep for the future (e.g. family or travel tapes).

Hi8 LP mode* uses closer track spacing to record 90min instead of 60min of material on a Hi8 120 blank. This also is risky for future playback since it assumes a more precise mechanical transport allignment. Your recorder will drift out of alignment over the years and other camcorders are likely to track slightly differently. Also, many Digital8 camcorders won't play LP mode at all.

For all of the above reasons, I would recommend using Hi8 SP mode for long term family-travel type recordings. If you use LP mode, I suggest you backup important scenes to tape or HDD.

I find 8mm blanks work OK for routine recordings that will be played back on the same camcorder.

Prices have dropped. Sam's and Costco sell Hi8 for less than $4/tape now. 8mm blanks will run $2-3/tape. There is not that much difference now if you shop.

*PS: These same issues apply to use of LP mode on MiniDV tapes. The pro DVCAM standard spaces tracks even wider and records wider tracks to tape to improve tape interchange between transports. The tradeoff is 40 min recording to a "60min" blank tape. Pros also use higher quality blank tape that records a stronger signal and is less subject to stretch and edge damage from heavy use.

[stiltman]

I bought some old IBM 8mm backup tapes at a computer swap for .50 a peice. Drilled out the second hole and made them into Hi8 tapes. Never had any problems at all with them.

[ColKurtz]

Thanks for the replies. I hadn't tried Sam's/Costco. I found several places that offered the tapes for ~$3.50, but usually it was a minimum of 10 and after shipping it was like $5/tape. I'll check Sam's.

As an aside, and I'll probably make a seperate post on this but ask anyway...

Originally I had planned to copy everything to DVD-R. I coud burn many hours of WMV files to a DVD. But the more I read, it seems like that's not a good idea for storing long-term, family recordings -- becuase CD/DVD media ages over time.

For long-term storge, is tape a better option than CD/DVD?

Thanks again.

[edDV]

Thanks for the replies. I hadn't tried Sam's/Costco. I found several places that offered the tapes for ~$3.50, but usually it was a minimum of 10 and after shipping it was like $5/tape. I'll check Sam's.

As an aside, and I'll probably make a seperate post on this but ask anyway...

Originally I had planned to copy everything to DVD-R. I coud burn many hours of WMV files to a DVD. But the more I read, it seems like that's not a good idea for storing long-term, family recordings -- becuase CD/DVD media ages over time.

For long-term storge, is tape a better option than CD/DVD?

Thanks again.

DVD/CD media aging isn't the problem. The problem would be retaining adequate video quality for the future. In the future, your kids and their kids will have TV displays far better than even today's HDTV and will look at DV as barely adequate much like we view VHS today.

You can edit down the DV material to the best stuff and $3/hr. doesn't look bad in the context of the effort put in. *

Next best is high bitrate MPEG2 in DVD format (e.g. 8Mb/s CBR, $0.40/hr.) will get good results but not as good as the original. Higher compression may look very poor on future TV sets. Just think ahead, you as gramps trying to show the grand kids this stuff on the 3D holographic display and the kids saying "I can't watch this stuff".

MPeg4 formats (including WMV) are good at higher bitrates and will get better standardized around next gen HD DVD players but may be at risk today for future longevity.

* btw, when HD DVDR arrives with ~25GB per layer, you will be dubbing these tapes to HD DVDR for long term archiving. In 30 years, nobody will have a functioning DV camcorder.

[thecoalman]

But the more I read, it seems like that's not a good idea for storing long-term, family recordings -- becuase CD/DVD media ages over time.

For long-term storge, is tape a better option than CD/DVD?

Thanks again.

I think the juries out on that one yet. On the other hand I've heard that some of the earliest released CD's are now becoming unplayable, same with laserdiscs. This is after many years., but then again if you look at VHS tape they as well are losing there quality slowly over time.

If you want a good quality master storing on DVD using WMV is not the format to use. For archiving purposes I'd suggest DV-AVI which is an exact copy of what's on tape. It requires about 1 DVD per 20 minutes. At the very least use a high bitrate MPEG which will give you 1 hour per DVD. In the end I don't trust any of them, all of my important material is on two backups, tape and DVD. As soon as the next generation of storage comes along the'll be getting transferred to that as well.

That is why I suggest using a higher quality format, if you don't at some point in time in the future your probably going to wish you had. Always save your tapes.

[Richard_G]

Going back to tapes. If you buy a Sony Hi-8 HMP tape, it is absolutely identical to a Sony Digital 8 tape excpet for the packaging. Decent quality Hi-8 tapes will work perfectly with a Digital 8 camcorder, standard Video 8 tapes are lesser quality so may give dropouts.

For archiving, I'll echo what has already been said. Transfer the footage from camcorder as DV AVI, do your editing and save as DV AVI, transfer back to tape and store that. The archived version will then be the best quality that it can be and not compressed and will be stored on a known reliable media.

[thewdawg]

For archiving purposes, is there any problem w/ transferring from MiniDV to HDD, editing and then copying back to original MiniDV tape? Also, on a MiniDv, I'm assuming the bitrate is much lower on LP, so that should not be an option?
Thanks!

[thecoalman]

For archiving purposes, is there any problem w/ transferring from MiniDV to HDD, editing and then copying back to original MiniDV tape?

AFAIK as long as you transfer, edit, and encode using DV-AVI there's no quality loss whatsoever.

Also, on a MiniDv, I'm assuming the bitrate is much lower on LP, so that should not be an option?

The bitrate is the same, the tape moves slower. The drawback to this is that it can become unplayable becuase it has less tolerance to read errors. It can possibly be unplayble right from the start if you try and play it back in another machine.

Stick with SP unless you really need to get more than 1 hour on tape, I'd only suggest it for material that is replaceable.

[edDV]

Also, on a MiniDv, I'm assuming the bitrate is much lower on LP, so that should not be an option?

The bitrate is the same, the tape moves slower. The drawback to this is that it can become unplayable becuase it has less tolerance to read errors. It can possibly be unplayble right from the start if you try and play it back in another machine.

Stick with SP unless you really need to get more than 1 hour on tape, I'd only suggest it for material that is replaceable.

I agree LP mode should not be used. If you need the longer record time for a shoot, consider the data fragile and transfer it to HDD, DVDR or MiniDV SP tapes without delay.

LP records the same data rate to extremely narrow tracks. As the camcorder looses mechanical tolerance over time, the same camcorder that recorded the LP tape may not be able to play it. Other camcorders are likely to have difficulty playing LP tapes due to track alignment variations.

DVCAM track width = 15 microns - very good interchange
MiniDV SP track width = 10 microns - good interchange
MiniDV LP track width = 6.7 microns - poor interchange

All record the same DV data stream (25Mb/s video + PCM audio + metadata)