tv tuner cards for pvr

[exiled350]

i need to get a new tuner card for my computer, as my pixleview is nolonger functioning properly. im not sure wether to get a hauppage 2/350 or the ati tv wonder elite. ive seen that the ati card is very good but ive also see it said to be not so great.

what i have is:
AMD Athlon xp 1700+ @ 1750mhz
Abit KR7A-raid
512mb pc2400 2-2-2-6-1
1x160gb ATA100 (system)
2x120gb ATA133 RAID0
Windows XP Pro SP2
ATI Radeon 7000 32mb agp

as for software im not too sure yet what to use, but im sure that the MPEG2 encodes will be edited and transcoded to MPEG4 on the A64 box im on now. so basicaly im looking for the best picture quality from analouge cable without going over $150.

[edDV]

PVR 250/350 is well proven and well supported by PVR software.

The ATI Elite has impressive new hardware (including a 3D comb filter and a hardware MPeg2 encoder) but has little software support and few useful reviews.

I'm waiting to decide between the two as I continue to cap ATI-AIW using BeyondTV3 software and direct cap cable box S-Video with my Canopus ADVC-100.

[yoda313]

I love my pvr250. Realtime hardware mpeg capturing (1 and 2). It takes up little resources and makes a perfect burnable mpg file ready for authoring. A worthy choice. Though if you want to fool around with avi files this won't work since the wintv series is MPEG only. ATI will capture in avi.

[exiled350]

what software would be good to cap straight to avi? i was using showshifter with the old card and caping to mjpeg, quality 19 640x480, and recompressing. that gave pretty good results, but would caping to mpeg2 -> recomp to mpeg 4 give better results, im sure going from a $40 tv card to a $150 card should prove noticable plus with a stronger computer. (tbird 1000/384mb sdr-> oc'ed xp1700/512mb ddr)

[edDV]

Why invest all this computer time for PVR timeshifting when you can get realtime MPeg2?

Why are you capping this video?

If you want to move it to DVD for later viewing on a DVD player then MPeg2 is your only choice. Unless you are using a custom MPeg4 (dvix, etc.) player. In which case you should have said so.

[exiled350]

hrmm... yes i guess i should have said why. i am using this not for time shifting, nor am i going to watch tv with this system. i want it to capture/record/archive television programs. most will be cartoon/anime from adult swim, but occasionaly a documentry or sitcom to watch at a later date. space is the biggest issue, but i also edit for time and run through a few filters, ivtc and deinterlace for computer viewing along with typical denoisers. i also have a phillips 642 so portability is also a concern.

[edDV]

Then the PVR 250/350 won't work.

Are you trying to find a card that real time encodes divx? It not just get a basic brooktree card.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.asp?Description=S-Video&MinPrice=&MaxPrice=&...SubCategory=47

[junkmalle]

From what I've seen, hardware MPEG4 capture devices like the Plextor ConverteX don't look very good at high compression rates (might as well stick with MPEG2). The ConvertX also always uses a blend deinterlace when as MPEG4. Ugly.

The PVR-250 (which I have) is pretty flexible (proc amp controls, temporal and spacial noise filtering, various resolutions and bitrates) but you can really only get MPEG2 compressed video out of it and your choice of capturing programs is limited.

You can capture at 15,000 kbps to get pretty clean MPEG2 for conversion to MPEG4 later. The best thing about the PVR-250 is that it will never drop a frame (well, it will if you try very hard). You can continue using your computer for just about anything while capturing -- especially if you disable display of the video. I often capture at 15,000 kbps, IVTC, and save as XVID AVI.

There are a lot of third party utilities and tweaks for the PVR-250:

http://www.cask-of-amontillado.com/htpc.html
http://www.shspvr.com/

Regarding capture quality, I don't see much difference between a decent $40 raw YUY2 capture card and a PVR-250. I think all the capture chips have pretty much maxxed out what you can get from a composite or s-video signal. Some of the poorly designed cards (which doesn't necessarily correspond to price) are susceptible to noise (lots of stray RF in the typical computer). With the PVR-250 you are paying for the hardware MPEG2 chips and an old expensive-to-manufacture design. The PVR-150 is much cheaper but there are still lots of bugs associated with it -- especially regarding PAL.

Quality of drivers can also be an issue. Most capture cards are pretty much based on the chipset manufacturer's reference design so many people toss out the drivers that come with various cards and use generic drivers from the chipset supplier (Philips, BrookTree, Conextant). As far as I know you can only use Hauppauge's drivers with the 250.

[FulciLives]

Just make sure you stay away from the Hauppauge WinTV PVR 150 as this model is JUNK ... but the 250/350 models appear to be A-OK.

Another consideration is the ADS Instant TV Deluxe USB which is an external USB 2.0 device that is a hardware MPEG encoder that has composite and s-video as well as a RF TV tuner input. It works with BeyondTV and when using the ADS capture software (might also be possible with BeyondTV) you can do a 15,000kbps CBR "I" frame only capture which is nice if you later intend to "downsize" to DivX or XviD.

Only problem is the unit can "act up" due to heat issues but putting the external box on legs (to raise it up off the desk/table surface) and putting a small fan on it seems to solve that problem.

I tested the ADS Instant DVD 2.0 (some guts as the ADS Instant TV Deluxe USB) as well as a Hauppauge WinTV PVR 150 and the ADS was much superior.

Another note ... if you will be editing MPEG-2 captures then you will want to try either MPEG-VCR or VideoRedo ... I've always used MPEG-VCR without fault but some seem to think VideoRedo is better.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[junkmalle]

Just make sure you stay away from the Hauppauge WinTV PVR 150 as this model is JUNK

Heheh... Your computer profile still lists the PVR-150 as your capture device!

the ADS Instant TV Deluxe USB... you can do a 15,000kbps CBR "I" frame only capture which is nice if you later intend to "downsize" to DivX or XviD

Does that give noticeably better picture quality? Or do you do it only for editability? With my PVR-250 I don't see much difference in picture quality between I, B, and P frames at 15,000 kbps CBR.

Consider this: an all I frame capture must encode each and every frame in it's entirety and each frame will be get 500 kbits (30 fps at 15,000 kbps). But an I/B/P capture can use motion vectors and use its 500 kbits to encode only the differences between frames. This could result in superior image quality! Of course, it's all implementation dependent...

[exiled350]

ive looked into the cards that claim to do real-time mpeg4 capture and dont really like what ive seen. what i really want is a card that will give the best tv captures, i dont really see myself using this for composite/s-vid caps anytime soon. the main reason i wanted to transcode to mpeg4 was for the archiveabilty(?). i was also thinking of trying out h.264 to see if i could get even better results than with xvid with the same size files ~500mb/hr. but im open to all suggestions as far as card and software along with method. but i think ultimatly an mpeg2 card would be the best bet, all the software out there seems to almost require it and showshifter kindof pisses me off sometimes.

[edDV]

I for one vote for realtime encoding.

[FulciLives]

Just make sure you stay away from the Hauppauge WinTV PVR 150 as this model is JUNK

Heheh... Your computer profile still lists the PVR-150 as your capture device!

Oh No !!!
Me bad LOL

Although right now I have NO capture device on the computer. My old BT based PCI capture card does not want to co-operate with my new computer (can't keep A/V sync) so I gave up on that. I got a Pioneer DVR 531H-s (a stand alone DVD recorder with a built-in 80GB HDD) and it does a good job but although I've done a few videotapes with it I bought it mostly for cable TV. I will be getting a DataVideo DAC-100 for those stubborn videotape captures that need AVI capture with AviSynth filters.

the ADS Instant TV Deluxe USB... you can do a 15,000kbps CBR "I" frame only capture which is nice if you later intend to "downsize" to DivX or XviD

Does that give noticeably better picture quality? Or do you do it only for editability? With my PVR-250 I don't see much difference in picture quality between I, B, and P frames at 15,000 kbps CBR.

Consider this: an all I frame capture must encode each and every frame in it's entirety and each frame will be get 500 kbits (30 fps at 15,000 kbps). But an I/B/P capture can use motion vectors and use its 500 kbits to encode only the differences between frames. This could result in superior image quality! Of course, it's all implementation dependent...[/quote]
Yeah I have thought of that ... I'm not sure if it actually works that way (like you say) or not but my understanding is that "I" frame capture is "better" PQ wise if you intend to re-encode that is.

I was "toying" with the idea of MPEG-2 as a "master" capture ala AVI format (with DV or HuffyUV or PICVideo etc.) with the "best" MPEG-2 can do (with consumer grade stuff) a 15,000kbps CBR "I" frame only capture. I'm starting to think a DV capture with something like the DataVideo DAC-100 is a better option even with the "dreaded" NTSC DV 4:1:1 issue.

I guess the question for me is which do I do:

1.) MPEG-2 capture at 15,000kbps CBR with "I" frames only
2.) DV capture with the DataVideo DAC-100 or Canopus ADVC-110

I tried 1 and the quality CAN be good but sometimes I saw TOO MUCH compression artifacts if the source was not ultra clean (which rules out VHS).

I've seen samples of DV captures ... I think edDV has posted some nice still images (I think he has a Canopus ADVC-100) and I've seen both still images and actual DV AVI video samples from vhelp (who also has a Canopus ADVC-100).

Those have made me think that DV might be better despite the 4:1:1 issue which I am starting to think is a bit "overblown" especially since an AviSynth filter exists for "correcting" it.

As far as I am concerned the "standard" PCI type TV TUNER capture card (that can do HuffyUV or PICVideo MJPEG etc.) is not a good option as A/V sync is too much of a nightmare. I had it solved on my old computer (mostly) but the new one just won't take to it even though it is much faster. Even on the old computer I would get strange FPS and have to adjust the video and audio and blah blah blah. Too much work and too much uncertaintly not knowing if the next capture would be in sync or need fixed or be un-fixable.

I don't understand why someone can't make a capture card that allows for different formats (like HuffyUV or PICVideo MJPEG or uncompressed even) that includes audio inputs that actually work without the sound card and have built-in locked audio. Why does no such beast exist? It would be the perfect capture device. In other words a "simple" PCI TV tuner type capture card but with built-in locked audio.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[The_Doman]

As far as I am concerned the "standard" PCI type TV TUNER capture card (that can do HuffyUV or PICVideo MJPEG etc.) is not a good option as A/V sync is too much of a nightmare. I had it solved on my old computer (mostly) but the new one just won't take to it even though it is much faster.

I see you still did not try the AVI_IO program then. :P
It will always keep a perfect A/V sync...

[FulciLives]

As far as I am concerned the "standard" PCI type TV TUNER capture card (that can do HuffyUV or PICVideo MJPEG etc.) is not a good option as A/V sync is too much of a nightmare. I had it solved on my old computer (mostly) but the new one just won't take to it even though it is much faster.

I see you still did not try the AVI_IO program then. :P
It will always keep a perfect A/V sync...

I haven't forgotten this TIP of yours but my old BT based PCI capture card is ... around somewhere ... but not in the computer.

I'll have to pop it in and give it a try.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[exiled350]

ok, so a mpeg2 card seems to be the answer. should i go with the ati and hope that it unseats the pvr 250, or play it safe and get the 250

[reboot]

FYI, there's nothing wrong with the newer PVR-150's with the latest set of drivers. Issues such as audio noise and video overblown whites, are pretty much resolved.
I would purchase one of each, and set up a dual tuner PVR

[exiled350]

i got the ati, mainly because it has a digital(silicon) tuner instead of an analouge(rf trap) tuner. sometimes the channels come in really crappy and this should help out.

[FulciLives]

FYI, there's nothing wrong with the newer PVR-150's with the latest set of drivers. Issues such as audio noise and video overblown whites, are pretty much resolved.
I would purchase one of each, and set up a dual tuner PVR

Well I bought one and test it and this was about 6 weeks ago ... had it for almost 2 weeks ... had the problems mentioned above. Otherwise it was nice but those two problems are BIG problems!

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[reboot]

Admittedly, there are/were problems.
If you check the number printed on the PCB, there are two distinct versions of the 150 (I got this info from HTPCNews).
Just because you bought it 6 weeks ago, doesn't mean it's a newer version
It's getting hard to find 250's too, which would be my first choice anyhow (for a single tuner).
The PVR-500 has none of the issues that the 150's had/have, which is totally strange, because the encoder and tuner chips are exactly the same as the 150's.

[edDV]

Admittedly, there are/were problems.
If you check the number printed on the PCB, there are two distinct versions of the 150 (I got this info from HTPCNews).
Just because you bought it 6 weeks ago, doesn't mean it's a newer version
It's getting hard to find 250's too, which would be my first choice anyhow (for a single tuner).
The PVR-500 has none of the issues that the 150's had/have, which is totally strange, because the encoder and tuner chips are exactly the same as the 150's.

I hope somebody can document the "issues" and fixes for the PVR-150 before ATI gets its act together and produces working encoding support software for the ATI TV Wonder Elite. Until then, my money remains in the bank.

Hauppage could score a marketing coup with a new extra high performance PVR-200 series product. I talked to these guys at NAB and they were in total denial mode about any problem with the PVR-150.