Can I (legally) sell my video?

[44echo]

I video tape bands at music festivals and public performances. I put them on DVD for my own personal use, just like I would put my home videos on DVD. Some people have expressed an interest in my video and I would like to know if I can legally sell it.

Actually, a better question would be do I owe any royalties to the bands? I pay admission to get into the event and most events are under a "beer tent." I'd say it's akin to a Church's summer picnic. It's not a rock concert. There are no "No video cameras allowed" signs. It's an informal "family event" where there is always someone with a video camera. I don't have to get permission to tape ahead of time, so I think I can do what I wish with the video.

I live in the US. Does anyone have any comments?

Thank you.

[NewHomebrew]

You would do best to ask your question here:

http://taperssection.com/index.php

[Red96TA]

Short story...no

Unless you have signed releases for both their likenesses and music, then there's just no way.

[GullyFoyle]

Christ I thought it was Tom Sizemore and his sex tapes.

[44echo]

Christ I thought it was Tom Sizemore and his sex tapes.

Sorry to disappoint you.

[rgs_uk]

You would be infringing music copyright. Not only would you owe royalties but you should get permission to use the music before you sell anything because the band/record company is entitled to say 'no' to your use of the music. It is actually 'worse' than file sharing, because you would be profiting financially.

Even if you put up a video on the web for people to watch for free, and it includes music faintly in the background, there are issues of copyright and you could be taken to court for infringement.

[Mister Flonk-Flonk]

If people walking around in the background of movies being filmed can take you to court and be compensated for your unauthorized use of their likeness, I don't see how it would be any different for a band. What you're talking about sounds like selling bootleg video. I'm fairly certain that would be a slam-dunk case if somebody took you to court over it. More than just the artist themselves, you'll have to deal with anyone they are under contract with to get permission. Good luck with all that.

[thecoalman]

Most likely it's cover tunes as well, you can't sell nything or even make available for free for that matter anything with cover tunes EVEN if you have the bands permission. That would require the permission of the original artist/composer.

On a side note I do a lot of work for local band. If the bands you are taping are doing originals and have a small following they may even be interested in allowing you sell some copies for a small cut of the profit, maybe even a full blown DVD if your work is good enough. No harm trying..... don't "steal" then sell their work though. Many small bands work very hard with little compensation.

[44echo]

WOW! Very enlightening. Not as simple as I thought.

Does anyone have any links on where to read up on the laws regarding this? I've Googled it but came up empty. While I can see the usefulness of the laws, it's also kind of a shame how it all works.

Thanks all. Very good info.

[thecoalman]

Does anyone have any links on where to read up on the laws regarding this?

http://www.copyright.gov/

Basically it's pretty cut and dried, if you don't own the copyright you can't use it in anyway. There are some exceptions such as if your taping a wedding reception, outdoor event etc. and the band is playing a copyrighted tune and the music is inadvertently recorded in the background.... Not exactly sure about the specifics but if you do a search on this forum you'll turn up something as this topic and simialar topics have been gone over many times.

While I can see the usefulness of the laws, it's also kind of a shame how it all works.

What's so shameful about protecting the integrity of someones work, it's theirs not yours. If they wish to allow you to use it for your gain than so be it. If not that's why they have copyright laws so you can't exploit the work of others for your own purposes.

[GullyFoyle]

WOW! Very enlightening. Not as simple as I thought.

Does anyone have any links on where to read up on the laws regarding this? I've Googled it but came up empty. While I can see the usefulness of the laws, it's also kind of a shame how it all works.

Thanks all. Very good info.

You need everyone to sign a waiver.
Where are all the corporate attorneys who readily explain why copy protection acts are so good, but seem to disappear on any other legal topic?

[GullyFoyle]

Does anyone have any links on where to read up on the laws regarding this?

http://www.copyright.gov/

Basically it's pretty cut and dried, if you don't own the copyright you can't use it in anyway. There are some exceptions such as if your taping a wedding reception, outdoor event etc. and the band is playing a copyrighted tune and the music is inadvertently recorded in the background.... Not exactly sure about the specifics but if you do a search on this forum you'll turn up something as this topic and simialar topics have been gone over many times.

While I can see the usefulness of the laws, it's also kind of a shame how it all works.

What's so shameful about protecting the integrity of someones work, it's theirs not yours. If they wish to allow you to use it for your gain than so be it. If not that's why they have copyright laws so you can't exploit the work of others for your own purposes.

Interesting. If the band owns the copyright to their own material then you would be in legal trouble.
If the band is playing someone elses music then the owner is entitled to royalties.
I imagine you could make a little blackmail money by threatening to track down the original owners and providing evidence the music was played without being paid for.
Springsteen caught a bar band playing his music. he made them either pay royalties or stop playing his songs. This was a number of years ago.
I would think most garage bands have NOT copyrighted their music. If they are playing a FREE venue then it is possible they are in the public domain. Probably take some type of legal battle to work out.
Easier to get them to sign a release, and share a percentage of the profits.

[thecoalman]

If the band is playing someone elses music then the owner is entitled to royalties.

Don't know what the specific legalities is for that but most bands do cover songs, perhaps it's something the bands they are covering overlook? I vaguely remeber something about the Springsteen thing, Wasn't that one of those tribute bands? Which brings up something else.... there's even tribute bands, some of them national acts and as far as I know they pay no royalties to the original bands.

I would think most garage bands have NOT copyrighted their music.

Again that's possible but the copyright laws in the US lean heavily towards the creator. To claim copyright you simply have to have an original work and claim the copyright to it. Writing it down on a piece of paper and claiming copyright is for all intents and purposes just as legal as something that was published. I believe it would be the responsibility of whomever recoreded the material to find out if it was copyrighted in this case. I'd imagine it would be in there best interest because they could be setting themselves up for a lawsuit.

If they are playing a FREE venue then it is possible they are in the public domain.

I don't think that applies, there's many acts that put on free shows including national acts.

[PMorton]

I would think most garage bands have NOT copyrighted their music.

At least in the United States, a work is automatically copyrighted (without even registering it) as soon as it is "written" to a tangible medium, be it paper, computer disc, CD... anything that can prove the authorship. It is automatic. So a garage band's music is copyrighted if they are playing from music that someone has scored, or if they have recorded their jam session.

[e404pnf]

I would think most garage bands have NOT copyrighted their music.

Copyright is an automatic right - you not need to do anything or even use the (c) symbol to protect your work . That said you can chose to register a copyright. While this is not essential it does help to establish ownership and I believe that it is a requirement to claim compensation for infringement in the US (as opposed to just preventing subsequent infringements).

If they are playing a FREE venue then it is possible they are in the public domain

Being in the public domain isn't an issue for current copyright law, it is however a big issue for Patent law. (I say 'current' becuase I'm not an IP lawyer. Being an old law there have been some quite major revisions thoughout history so I'd rather not be too absolute).

As suggested in a previous post, if you want to make money from what essentially a hobby of yours, a good approach would be to contact the bands, establish that they do own the copyright to the music and sell the DVDs together.

- e404pnf

EDIT: Sorry PMorton, got distract mid-post and submitted after you (the cheek of expecting me to answer the phone during office hours 8) ). I can confirm though that automatic copyright is not just a US system. Its the same in Europe.

[GullyFoyle]

I would think most garage bands have NOT copyrighted their music.

Again that's possible but the copyright laws in the US lean heavily towards the creator. To claim copyright you simply have to have an original work and claim the copyright to it. Writing it down on a piece of paper and claiming copyright is for all intents and purposes just as legal as something that was published. I believe it would be the responsibility of whomever recoreded the material to find out if it was copyrighted in this case. I'd imagine it would be in there best interest because they could be setting themselves up for a lawsuit.

If they are playing a FREE venue then it is possible they are in the public domain.

I don't think that applies, there's many acts that put on free shows including national acts.

I would think you need someway to prove you wrote it first. If not everyone would be scribbling lyrics on the back of napkins and claiming them as original.
That is where registering for the copyright comes in. Without legal verification it would need to be settled in court with enough evidence on your side to prove it is yours.

[e404pnf]

I would think you need someway to prove you wrote it first. If not everyone would be scribbling lyrics on the back of napkins and claiming them as original.
That is where registering for the copyright comes in. Without legal verification it would need to be settled in court with enough evidence on your side to prove it is yours.

Right - but not really an issue here. 44echo is filming someone else perform. This doesn't prove the band own the copyright to the music (but could help prove a date it was created), it does go some way to prove 44echo doesn't own it though which was the original question. (assuming s/he didn't write the music & lyrics then pass it onto the band to sing :P )

[thecoalman]

I would think you need someway to prove you wrote it first. If not everyone would be scribbling lyrics on the back of napkins and claiming them as original.
That is where registering for the copyright comes in. Without legal verification it would need to be settled in court with enough evidence on your side to prove it is yours.

Yes, I made the same argument myself in a previous thread. Nevertheless registation doesn't provide more or less protection under US copyright law. Proving when you created it is another matter, obviously registering it would give you a firm date but you could argue that most material is not registered and registering something that someone else has already copyrighted isn't going to make you the winner in a lawsuit necessarily.

Just for example newspaper articles are not registered....

[adam]

Actually newspaper articles typically are registered but they qualify as serials so you only have to register it maybe once per year, and only deposit one paper per year. But the registration covers all of the articles in every paper. And registration really does provide additional copyright protection because it allows you to get attorneys fees and statutory damages. Without those a lawsuit is basically unprofitable. It also creates a number of legal presumptions in your favor, and then of course its a prerequisite to filing an infringement suit.

Since copyright is automatic, even if it hasn't vested in tangible form previously (author never recorded it) the second you record it YOU vest the copyright on behalf of the creator. They own it, not you. This owner may be the band playing or the band they are covering, but either way you have to have permission from them to sell it. It doesn't matter whether they are playing in a major venue or in you backyard, the copyright is in the underlying music. The performance could be protected by its own copy as well...

The fact that the event or the performance are done for free means nothing. It takes an express dedication to put something into the public domain. So unless you get authorization to sell these performances in writing, you are taking a big risk.

[Sillyname]

Christ I thought it was Tom Sizemore and his sex tapes.

I don't think I could stomach that...

[dvdguy4]

Christ I thought it was Tom Sizemore and his sex tapes.

I don't think I could stomach that...

LOL

[PMorton]

An effective way of giving yourself proof of date of authorship is to mail a copy to yourself, and store the received package unopened in a safe place. The postmark gives an official date that the government processed the package.

[ozymango]

I video tape bands at music festivals and public performances. I put them on DVD for my own personal use, just like I would put my home videos on DVD. Some people have expressed an interest in my video and I would like to know if I can legally sell it.

As pretty much everybody else has already mentioned, in a word, no. BUT!!! I've videotaped a certain musical performer a few times (headline act! World famous! Awesome musician!) and been given permission by him and his agent to record said shows for my own private use and, to a limited extent, clearance to share this work with certain people under certain situations if no money changes hands. The last part there, the "no money" clause, may make this automatically moot to you but if your goal is to share some of these shows, and possibly promote your work at the same time (with cool credits or whatever), that may be an option.

It depends a great deal on the artist, what you mean by "sell," and a bunch of other stuff of course. In my particular case, this musician has made it explicitly OK to share "bootleg" audio recordings of his shows rather freely (it's okay to recover your actual expenses for postage and blanks but that's it), but the video portion is more of a sticky wicket, he'd like to keep more of that "protected" simply because he's got some of his own video projects in the works. That being said, it's been okay in some situations to share the video as long as I clear it beforehand.

I really think it's worth it to contact the performer or performer's agent about any of the recording you're doing, keep things out in the open, agree to abide by any rules or conditions they set, and if they know that you respect them, care about being open and honest, they'll often treat you much differently than if you're sneaking around with a camera (not that I'm saying you're sneaking around with a camera!!!) But it can often help to check with them first and see what limitations they have, they might be willing to work with you.

Oh, and then you always make sure to send them a copy of the show so they know you're on the level and they look and sound good!

Good luck!

[44echo]

What's so shameful about protecting the integrity of someones work, it's theirs not yours. If they wish to allow you to use it for your gain than so be it. If not that's why they have copyright laws so you can't exploit the work of others for your own purposes.

First off, thanks for the link, coalman.

Protecting the integrity of someone's work is the part that I understand. According to the experts here, if my friend plays in a band and I tape them, put it on DVD and send it to my brother in Germany to see it (because the garage band hasn't yet scheduled their European tour), I would owe royalties to Bob Seger because the band played Old Time Rock and Roll. But I'd really be a criminal if I charged him $20 (not that I would) for my time, materials, and postage. That, to me, seems a little petty, but I understand it's the law.

To call it "bootleg" conjures up images of someone hiding a tape recorder in their jacket and heading into a rock concert. Or someone with a hidden video recording device attached to their lapel. Nothing could be more noticeable than me in the middle of the dance floor standing on a 3 step ladder so I can tape over everyone's head.

I wasn't looking at going into business with this. My original thought was that I'm making the DVDs for myself anyway. If someone else was interested in it, and I could get some cash for another 3-pack of DV tapes, or another spindle of DVDs, or to help pay for the new battery charger that I just bought, or to somewhat compensate me for my time...then why not? Nothing wrong with making a little money on my hobby, right? That's what I was thinking. Selling cheaper videos (the band doesn't even sell videos) out in the parking lot to get rich was never my intention. I know no one here said that I was, I'm just making a statement.

On the last DVDs that I made, I put a statement at the end that said "Filmed and edited by My Name, © 2005. Although it was for my own personal use, I did this for one reason...it looked cool. Did I have any right to do this? Along with transitions and subtitles , I created my own intro and "slideshow" feature at the end. Can I claim rights to anything on this DVD? If so, what is the proper way to do it?

I understand the law is the law. This reply is not meant to disagree with anyone or argue that I have the right to do what I want. I just wanted to follow up on a few comments. The obvious answer here is to get permission from the band, if I decide it's worthwhile to persue this. At this point, it doesn't seem like it is.

Thank you all for your replies.

[Mister Flonk-Flonk]

I wasn't looking at going into business with this. My original thought was that I'm making the DVDs for myself anyway. If someone else was interested in it, and I could get some cash for another 3-pack of DV tapes, or another spindle of DVDs, or to help pay for the new battery charger that I just bought, or to somewhat compensate me for my time...then why not? Nothing wrong with making a little money on my hobby, right? That's what I was thinking.

Aside from possibly being illegal copyright infringement, it was a great idea.
Cover your bases first. Selling unauthorized copies might get you in trouble.
Wanting to pass on the expense of your "hobby" isn't a very good reason.

[GullyFoyle]

As pretty much everybody else has already mentioned, in a word, no. BUT!!! I've videotaped a certain musical performer a few times (headline act! World famous! Awesome musician!) and been given permission by him and his agent to record said shows for my own private use and, to a limited extent, clearance to share this work with certain people under certain situations if no money changes hands. The last part there, the "no money" clause, may make this automatically moot to you but if your goal is to share some of these shows, and possibly promote your work at the same time (with cool credits or whatever), that may be an option.

You aren't Robert Frank are you?

********** Blues
********** Blues is an unreleased film directed by Robert Frank chronicling the Rolling Stones' North American tour in 1972 in support of their album Exile on Main Street.

There was much anticipation for the Stones' arrival. The band had not visited the United States since the 1969 disaster at Altamont, in which a fan was stabbed and beaten to death by Hell's Angels. The tour fulfilled its promise of tremendous rock and roll performances on stage. Behind the scenes, the tour embodied debauchery, lewdness and hedonism.

The film was shot cinema verite, with plenty of film and cameras lying around for anyone in the entourage to pick up and start shooting. This allowed the film's audience to witness backstage parties, drug use, roadie antics, fay artists, and the Stones with their defenses down.

"********** Blues" was the title of a song Mick Jagger wrote to be the Stones' final single for Decca Records, as per their contract. Its context and language was chosen specifically to anger Decca executives. The track was refused by Decca and only released later on a West German compilation in 1983.

The film itself is under a court order which forbids it from being shown unless the director is physically present, most likely due to the various illegal activities depicted taking place around the band. However, bootleg copies of the film are available.

[thecoalman]

On the last DVDs that I made, I put a statement at the end that said "Filmed and edited by My Name, © 2005. Although it was for my own personal use, I did this for one reason...it looked cool. Did I have any right to do this? Along with transitions and subtitles , I created my own intro and "slideshow" feature at the end. Can I claim rights to anything on this DVD? If so, what is the proper way to do it?

Anything original is copyrightable, simply putting the copyrightmark on it is more than sufficient in a legal sense. That's as long as the material you created doesn't contain any previously copyrighted material.

Your getting into specifics that I'm not fully capable of answering but for another example (hopefully this one is correct :P ) the subtitles would not be copyrightable and an infringement on the artist/composers copyright if they contain the lyrics to the song.

[44echo]

the subtitles would not be copyrightable and an infringement on the artist/composers copyright if they contain the lyrics to the song.

coalman,

You're shooting me down left and right here! The subtitles are the songs titles.

[adam]

If this is a concert DVD like the ones you are asking about, then even original additions and features on it are probably not copyrightable by you. If the underlying work is infringing, then your work becaumes an unauthorized derivative work. If you want to claim copyright in these items you will have to make a non-infringing work with them. And if they are primarily related to these performances then there's just no way around it, you need the permission of the artists to even create your work.

[TheUnknownComic]

Interesting. If the band owns the copyright to their own material then you would be in legal trouble.
If the band is playing someone elses music then the owner is entitled to royalties.
I imagine you could make a little blackmail money by threatening to track down the original owners and providing evidence the music was played without being paid for.
Springsteen caught a bar band playing his music. he made them either pay royalties or stop playing his songs. This was a number of years ago.
I would think most garage bands have NOT copyrighted their music. If they are playing a FREE venue then it is possible they are in the public domain. Probably take some type of legal battle to work out.
Easier to get them to sign a release, and share a percentage of the profits.

As for the blackmail angle, I think that sometimes gets covered by ASCAP and BMI fees. Some bands pay directly into it to be legally covered. Some clubs pay, too. You might have seen ASCAP stickers of some bar doors, etc. I have a friend in a band that has mentioned paying ASCAP fees before.

There's some info on that at:

http://www.musicbootcamp.com/performance_rights.shtml