NTSC film -> PAL conversion problems

[stokefan]

Hi guys,

I'v tried KingJohn's guide for this, but to no avail, and I haev looked through the forums so I think i have a specific problem with this.

When simply converted from a 23.976 fps divx file with TMPGenc to the same framerate but a VCD MPEG file, upon playback on my Toshiba 220E DVD player I get jerky playback, can anyone help please?

[mats.hogberg]

In theory, my DVD player ought to play NTSC VCD, but I've found that I get all kinds of jerkiness when I try.
So, what I do is basically this:

• Extract audio stream using direct stream copy.
  Decode extracted audio track to WAV.
  Use wavworks (or Goldwave time warp) to shorten the audiotrack. (compress/speed up...)
  Change the frame rate in original AVI with AVIFrate.
  Use the compressed wav as audio source and 25 fps AVI as video source.
  Encode to standard PAL (S)VCD using TMPGEnc.

Works every time.

/Mats

[2man]

i think that to make the VCD NTSC you need to add a 3:2 pulldown in TMPEG because the NTSC tv signal need 29.97 fps instead 23.97fps
my system is PAL so ....

[adam]

I notice that everyone in this thread is in a PAL region, and that is the problem. All VCD compatible NTSC DVD players are required to be able to autotelecine an NTSCfilm encoded VCD to 29.97fps as it plays. When playing such a VCD on a PAL tv, however, the DVD player would first have to autotelecine the movie to 29.97fps and then it would have to modify the signal to PAL 60Hz. Even though the second step isn't a full blown conversion, its still an added step that must all be done in real time. The point is that some PAL DVD players will do it flawlessly and some won't.

If you live in a PAL region and you have an ntscfilm source, than you will most likely have to manually convert to PAL. Simply speed up both audio and video playback by 4%.

@2man, If you are referring to the 3:2 pulldown flag (enabled on video tab) than this is incorrect. Mpeg1 does not support such flags, this is only applicable to mpeg2 ie: DVD, SVCD. If you are referring to the 3:2 pulldown filter (enabled on advanced tab) than this will certainly work but will result in an extreme loss in quality. The proper way to convert ntscfilm to PAL is to simply speed it up. If you run a true 3:2 telecine than 20% more frames are created from existing fields, all of which need bitrate.

[stokefan]

is there an easier way to speed up the ntscfilm than the incredibly complicated KingJohn's giude adam?

[Bookmd]

stokefan...sorry if I sound like a noob...but you're saying that any ntsc dvd will autoconvert pal on the fly and I don't have to worry about it?...if so, does this work with all formats? ie SVCD?

[adam]

Well, I haven't read that guide but its not difficult or complicated. For any encoder other than TMPGenc just set the resolution to the PAL equivalent, in this case 352x288, and set the output fps to 25. For TMPGenc you also have to click the "do not framerate conversion" filter on the advanced tab. Then, just encode the video stream only.

As for the audio, just use BeSweet. I'd decompress the audio to wav first though by using Vdub. Load the mpg and hit file/save wav. Then load the wav in BeSweet and select the NTSCfilm->PAL option on the bottom left and then encode to mp2.

Finally, using something like TMPGenc to multiplex your audio and video streams into a VCD compliant mpg program stream.

[DRP]

In theory, my DVD player ought to play NTSC VCD, but I've found that I get all kinds of jerkiness when I try.
So, what I do is basically this:

• Extract audio stream using direct stream copy.
  Decode extracted audio track to WAV.
  Use wavworks (or Goldwave time warp) to shorten the audiotrack. (compress/speed up...)
  Change the frame rate in original AVI with AVIFrate.
  Use the compressed wav as audio source and 25 fps AVI as video source.
  Encode to standard PAL (S)VCD using TMPGEnc.

Works every time.

/Mats

Mats, I'd love to be able to do exactly as you advise here but I can't get AVIFrate to work. Why do I get this whenever I try to run it?

[mats.hogberg]

No idea why (as it works as intended on my system), but it seems to me like you're running AVIFrate right out of the zip?
If so, make a directory for it (with a name that contains no spaces anywhere in its path), and unzip all files in AVIFRATE.ZIP into it. Then run avifrate.exe from this location.

HTH!
/Mats

[DRP]

(with a name that contains no spaces anywhere in its path)

Yep. This was the problem. I wasn't running it within the ZIP - I'm not *that* new to computers

This is the only program I've come across that can't handle spaces in the directory path. Anyway... solved the problem by moving it to the root directory and running from there - not neat, but necessary to get around the author's limitations I guess.

Thanks

[the * dude]

ok guv, I'm form the Uk too and this is the thing when you get an avi at 23.97 fps either in divx, or xvid format the avi isn't actually in a 23.97 fps, it's kinda set to a variable frame frate sorta shit (well with divx that is!!)

So if u got a divx file in most cases all you need to do is to load up your pal vcd template in tmpeg, set as you please & encode...

in all other cases ( if its still jerky usally xvid) you need to also tick the inverse telecine box under the advanced tab.. things should be OK.....

I assume you wana pal vcd cause it is a better format than NTSC vcd (higher res!!!)

But if you wana Ntsc vcd then all you do is load up the NTSC 29.99 template,,, yes 29.99 fps don't worry tmpeg willl do the frame rate conversion..

I just recently discovered how to do this since my tv since fixed decide it didn't want to play NTSC video properly....

anyway,, try/test it out on a 10min bit of vid to see whats best!!!!


later

[Mrsash]

Well, I haven't read that guide but its not difficult or complicated. For any encoder other than TMPGenc just set the resolution to the PAL equivalent, in this case 352x288, and set the output fps to 25. For TMPGenc you also have to click the "do not framerate conversion" filter on the advanced tab. Then, just encode the video stream only.

As for the audio, just use BeSweet. I'd decompress the audio to wav first though by using Vdub. Load the mpg and hit file/save wav. Then load the wav in BeSweet and select the NTSCfilm->PAL option on the bottom left and then encode to mp2.

Finally, using something like TMPGenc to multiplex your audio and video streams into a VCD compliant mpg program stream.

Hmm adam i needed more info on this

I have posting this before but i was trying to convert ntsc 29 fps dvd to pal vcd. Now i was successful in converting the ntsc 23.XX fps to pal vcd by simply using dvd2avi and using the force film option on it save project and then running this d2v file in tmpeg with default pal vcd settings. Now i tried the same with ntsc but force film not chosen and resulting file was good, i even got the audio in perfect sinc even though i did the same method audio and video. The only prob was that in fast motion scenes the video would break horizontally(looks like interlace issue) at even breaks. Becoz i did not have a guide anywhere which was good i used the odd field deinterlance which cut down this effect which worked to an extent but did not get rid of it completely. Adam i am asking you becoz i have exhausted all options including searching this site. I know there is vast info on this site but i need a simple do this and this awnser or a link which spefically relates to ntsc 29 fps dvd conversion to pal vcd. I am just asking no pressure.

thanks for any help

[adam]

First off, there is probably no reason to do this conversion. As long as your PAL tv isn't a dinosaur, it should play NTSC just fine and even if it doesn't, your dvd player can probably convert the signal to PAL 60Hz, which your tv can almost surely play. PAL hardware is just much more universal, you can play all our stuff we just can't play yours.

Now if you do still want to do this conversion there is something very fundamental you must understand, and its usually hard to grasp by someone in a PAL region who is so damned spoiled by a near perfect regional format As I'm sure you probably know, film is shot at 24fps. PAL is really no different than film, it just plays slightly faster. The conversion is simple, take those same frames you shot, and just speed them up a little. NTSC is an entirely different issue. ~30fps is way to much faster than 24fps, so if you sped it up it would move too fast and everyone would sound like chipmunks. So the only way to make the conversion is to duplicate frames, but this causes choppyness. So the solution is to break the frames into fields (series of alternating scan lines) and then repeat certain fields in a specific patter so that new intermitten frames are created to fill in the gaps between existing frames. These new frames increase the fps to 29.97fps and you don't notice them, or the fact that the video is now interlaced.

So, understanding that, you can see why you have interlacing when you slowed your NTSC footage down to PAL. Since you say your sync and playback speed were ok, that means you used frame decimation (TMPGenc default.) This just randomly decimated frames to decrease the framerate (never a good idea) but since it was random, it left many of the interlaced frames and now those are noticable when you watch the movie.

So, if you want to convert NTSC to PAL you MUST first remove those specific frames which were originally created during the telecine to NTSC in the first place. To do this you perform what is called an inverse telecine (IVTC.) If you look in TMPGenc's filters you will see such an option, and there are many other programs and filters with similar filters. My preferred method of IVTC'ing is to use decomb.dll through avisynth. Anyway, these filters specifically decimate those fields which were repeated, and then they are able to reconstruct the progressive whole frames that the movie originated as. This gives you progressive 24fps film which you can just speed up to PAL.

One last thing to realize is that an inverse telecine only works if the film was telecined in the first place, and the pattern of interlaced frames to progressive ones hasn't been destroyed. Footage such as NTSC DVD is pure interlaced and filmed at 29.97fps and therefore cannot be IVTC'ed, or converted to PAL very easily.

[FOO]

Hey Adam,
You seem to be up on Telecine issues.
Are you aware of any editors that will
edit IVTC MPEG2 video without screwing it up ?
By edit I mean remove a section in the middle.

I mean 24 fps Film video with pulldown flags
rather than actual generated 5th frames

[adam]

If you want to edit video stored internally at ~24fps then just ensure that your editor is not parsing the pulldown flags, or better yet just remove or bypass the pulldown flags.

You could remove the pulldown flags using pulldown.exe or you could bypass them by frameserving your video via dvd2avi with forced film enabled. Do your editing, which will be done progressively at 23.976fps, then add new pulldown flags when your done.

[FOO]

I suspect removing pulldwn flags and editing would
cause audio sync problems, but i'll try it.

If i was willing to encode, I wouldn't need to edit MpEG2

[adam]

It won't affect the audio sync at all. Both NTSCfilm and NTSC run at the same physical speed. The increased fps is created by creating new frames each second not by speeding up playback, so the movie still has the same number of mins, secs, etc... Adding or removing pulldown flags doesn't change anything about the file itself, it just gives or removes the instructions to the decoder to perform the telecine. You can edit the file any way you want, as long as you edit audio and video together, and it won't affect how the decoder does the telecine. its still just applying the same pattern when repeating fields. As long as your original (24fps) video is in sync with your audio, then the telecined video (29.97fps) will be too.

If you just want to cut a section out of the middle than the only decent tool I know that will do it with mpeg2 is M2 Edit and its very expensive. Womble mpeg2vcd might be able to handle it well, but past versions created desync.

Probably the easiest way is to just cut at your edit points using either TMPGenc or BBmpeg (I strongly recommend using bbmpeg over TMPGenc) and then to join the files using TMPGenc if you are making a SVCD, or keep them as separate files and simply link them seamlessly if making a DVD.

[FOO]

Thanks, that makes sense. I was afraid the editor might think
the frame rate was still 30 after removing flags and incorrectly
calculate audio. I'll have to make sure the headers say 24 fps
Maybe pulldown does that too.

Womble works perfectly on all MPEG2 files I have tried that
aren't IVTCed. Note that it has to re-encode one GOP around
the splice. It may not be setting pulldown flags in the new section.
It also may be messing up the pulldown sequence depending on
where the cut occurs.
In any case running pulldown after the edit may fix it.

I have the M2-Edit demo but it's too crippled to really check out.

[Mrsash]

So, if you want to convert NTSC to PAL you MUST first remove those specific frames which were originally created during the telecine to NTSC in the first place. To do this you perform what is called an inverse telecine (IVTC.) If you look in TMPGenc's filters you will see such an option, and there are many other programs and filters with similar filters. My preferred method of IVTC'ing is to use decomb.dll through avisynth. Anyway, these filters specifically decimate those fields which were repeated, and then they are able to reconstruct the progressive whole frames that the movie originated as. This gives you progressive 24fps film which you can just speed up to PAL.

This makes so much sense now thank adam
I have a further question about this process. Last time i installed avisynth my computer would not boot up i dont know why. so i will be using tmpeg. Now does the process go this way if i wanna convert the ntsc dvd to pal vcd? dvd2avi>normal settings for pal save project and run this through tmpeg settings pal vcd and click inverse telecine. And if yes? does it remove those duplicate frames and turn it into pal on the fly. If not can you give me detailed instructions pleeeeese. Also

One last thing to realize is that an inverse telecine only works if the film was telecined in the first place, and the pattern of interlaced frames to progressive ones hasn't been destroyed. Footage such as NTSC DVD is pure interlaced and filmed at 29.97fps and therefore cannot be IVTC'ed, or converted to PAL very easily.

If i come across a dvd like this how will i be notified by tmpeg about this if it can do it? And you said it is difficult to convert this sort of movie, still how is possible to convert this movie?

thanks
[/quote]

[adam]

IF you have a DVD source than it makes things so much easier. The vast majority or commercial NTSC DVDs actually store the movie as progressive film at 24fps and then use pulldown flags to instruct the DVD decoder to telecine the movie to 29.976fps on the fly. When you back these DVDs up, either to PAL or NTSC, all you have to do is bypass the pulldown flags and access the original 24fps material, and from there any type of conversion is simple. And remember, whether you are dealing with the 24fps (23.976) material or the 29.97fps telecined output, the audio still syncs so you don't have to worry about that.

So anytime you are using an NTSC DVD as a source, here's the first thing you do. Load it in dvd2avi and scroll a little ways into the movie and set the start point. You basically want to skip the opening credits because these are usually NTSC (hard encoded at 29.97fps.) Hit F5 to preview the movie and in the statistics window that pops up, you are looking for it to say FILM. If it does, and almost all commercial NTSC DVDs do, then the movie is 23.976fps and you should enable forced film in the video tab. When you make your d2v project file it will bypass the pulldown flags and frameserve your movie as 23.976fps progressive. Basically, rather than doing an IVTC later, you simply skip the telecine altoghether. Now that you have 23.976fps progressive frames, it should be very easy to convert it to PAL.

Now if dvd2avi reports NTSC or only reports a % Film (ie: %20 FILM) than forced film will not work. This means the video is at least partly hard encoded at 29.97fps. In this case you must disable forced film and perform an IVTC, in your case in TMPGenc. Yes, TMPGenc can do the IVTC and then convert to PAL all in one step. So, you'd of course set your output resolution to a PAL compatible res and set your output framerate to 25fps. On the advanced tab you MUST enable the "do not framerate conversion" filter and than you would need to double click on the inverse telecine filter, set output fps to 24 and then hit Auto-Setting. During encoding, TMPGenc will remove the duplicate fields and reconstruct the 24fps whole frames, then it will speed the playback of these frames up to 25fps, giving you PAL output.

Don't forget to also speed your audio up to match by using BeSweet.

Footage such as NTSC DVD is pure interlaced and filmed at 29.97fps and therefore cannot be IVTC'ed, or converted to PAL very easily.

That was a typo in my last post. I meant to say NTSC DV, not DVD. I'm not sure how you would convert pure interlaced NTSC material to PAL. I'm not sure its possible to do it without extreme jerkiness. The best way to do the conversion is to simply modify the signal to run at 50Hz as is by outputting PAL 60Hz, which again, any modern dvd player sold in a PAL region can do.

As for other footage which has been hard encoded to NTSC, ie: forced film won't work, you can test whether it has undergone a typical 2:3 telecine (what the pulldown flags would do if it had used them.) As stated above, you are going to have to disable forced film when processing the movie in dvd2avi. But, load the d2v file into TMPGenc and click on source range in the advanced tab to preview the movie. Scroll through it frame by frame. If you see 2 interlaced frames for every 3 progressive ones, then its undergone a 2:3 telecine and is a perfect candidate for IVTC. If the # of progressive to interlaced follows another pattern, than its possible it can be IVTC'ed but there are no guarantees. Something like decomb.dll through avisynth has very good pattern guidance and can usually handle such footage. In my experience, TMPGenc does a very poor job of IVTC'ing footage that doesn't use a 2:3 pattern.

Then of course there is some footage where there are several telecining patterns throughout the movie. Once again decomb can usually handle this stuff. If using TMPGenc you'd probably have to use its manual IVTC mode and go through and try to find the patterns yourself.

[Mrsash]

Thanks man that makes my like so much better. I wonder why there is no guide to show this conversion

[Mrsash]

Adam one more thing. What if my source is a ntsc.avi or a ntsc.mpg

thanks 8)

[adam]

If its an avi that you downloaded its almost surely progressive, interlaced is possible but not likely. So load it in VirtualDub and hit file/file information and look at its framerate. If its 23.976fps than its a simple speed up to PAL. If its 29.97fps, then there is not much you can do. You can use avisynth to interlace it and then use the changefps command to decimate fields, which will minimize the jerkiness because you are throwing out fields rather than frames, but it will probably never be perfect. All of the same goes for mpeg1, though it is always progressive. If its 23.976fps, then you're good. If its 29.97fps than your screwed.

If its an avi you captured from an NTSC source, then load it in TMPGenc and follow my previous advice to see if it follows a 2:3 pattern or any pattern at all. You can always try an IVTC on it, but there is no guarantee it will work. If the source did not originate as film then you are pretty much stuck with NTSC.

As for mpeg2 follow the same procedure as you do for DVD. Load it in dvd2avi and preview it to see if it is stored as FILM with pulldown flags. If so just use forced film and you will get the 23.976fps source, which again is easily converted to PAL. If its not film, then you can try an inverse telecine

Basically, for all sources...if its progressive 23.976fps then you can just speed it up to PAL. If its 29.97fps interlaced than you may be able to IVTC and then speed up to PAL. If its 29.97fps progressive then your stuck with NTSC.

[Teleport]

I was wondering if Adam could give me some advice.

I've read all your posts (several times). Will this work?

I have a Divx Avi which is 29.976 fps which I need to convert to PAL XVCD.

Would I be better off just leaving the output fps at 29.97?
Would this still encode as a PAL VCD correctly and play on my DVD player or would I need change the fps to 25 and then try to fix any jerky playback using inverse telecine and "do not do framerate conversion" in TMPGenc and then speeding up the audio in BeSweet (by how much)?

[adam]

There is rarely ever a need to convert NTSC to PAL, because the PAL format is so much more versatile and the hardware support is much better. Virtually any tv/dvd player combination sold in a PAL region can either play NTSC directly, or can play PAL 60Hz which is just a modified NTSC signal which your dvd player will export. If you just create an NTSC XVCD than it should play just fine on your PAL setop.

If you do run into playback problems, then yes you would need to do an inverse telecine, if its even possible, and then enable the do not framerate conversion option in TMPGenc and set the output fps to 25.

As for audio, if you are using BeSweet then you can just use the built in regional format options by enabling the NTSC->PAL option. If you are using a 3rd party program than you would want to increase the playback speed by about 4%.

[duhmez]

Do what Adam says, he knows whathe is talking about. the "do not frame rate conversion" coupled with the besweet ntscfilm>Pal is the key to haveing everything right.

If using cce or other mpeg encoder, then first put the avi in vdub. then direct stream copy. under video tab>frame rate "Change to 25 fps"
(Ignore the warning about av sync issues, besweet will take care of that.

[Teleport]

Thanks for the reply Adam.

I have sucessfully encoded a PAL XVCD with 30fps.

I had Detect Scene Change and Motion search both turned off.

This all added up to give smooth video from the disc inserted in my standalone DVD player.

The original was actually 29.976 fps but 30fps seemed to play fine on my TV (not sure if it would accept any other non PAL framerate).

Thanks again.

[duhmez]

To convert a true 29.97 source to Pal would be a noghtmare. There is no good proper way to do it, only by chopping out massive quantities of frames. Fortunately, Pal deivces can play anything usually.

[duhmez]

To convert a true 29.97 source to Pal would be a noghtmare. There is no good proper way to do it, only by chopping out massive quantities of frames. Fortunately, Pal deivces can play anything usually.

[adam]

If the source of the NTSC footage originated as FILM, (24fps) and its integrity has not been altered (has only undergone a typical telecine) then converting it to PAL is not difficult at all. You just have to run an inverse telecine filter which removes the duplicate frames and recombines the existing fields into progressive frames. From there you can speed it up slightly to PAL. The result is no different than if you started with a 24fps source, in other words nothing is lost.

If you have pure NTSC or improperly telecined NTSC material, then yes its nightmare to re-encode it to PAL.