HD-DVD Officially HDMI Only?

[The Stinger]

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/article/ds22406.html


At a recent Toshiba road show in the US they demonstrated their upcoming HD-DVD specification and a few more details became available as to what we can expect from the format when it launches in the US late November.It will launch with 89 titles available in HD. The audience reaction was very positive to the comparable images shown in both standard DVD and HD-DVD.

The most interesting thing for people buying TVs at the moment is that Toshiba have stated that their HD-DVD Player will ONLY output high Def on the player's HDMI output ,the analogue output will be downrezed to 480 lines. The Toshiba player will also have a USB interface to allow connection to computers for enhanced content and interactive options direct off the disk. In addition mastering of the underlying DVD content will be based on 1080p - but there was no discussion on the resolution of the MPEG4 images.

The HD-DVD disk will come in 3 sizes when first launched. There will be 15Gb / 30Gb / 45Gb disks,and there will also be a fourth variety which will have a SD-DVD version on the reverse side of the disk, allowing retailers to have a single version of new films on the shelves and allow consumers to build a library before they have the equipment.

As you can see Toshiba will be trying to ensure that studios are confident in the security that they are offering with HD output only being available on the secure digital outputs (HDMI and IEEE1394). So once again if you are thinking about buying a HD capable screen make sure it has HDMI.

So does this mean that those of us that adopted the HDTV early are screwed? Cause if this is the case, I am not a happy camper!

[lumis]

hasnt HDMI already been cracked?

[akrako1]

Is it even possible for somebody to come out with a HDMI->Component Video adaptor?

[waheed]

What about DVI output?

This is really screwed. Im now leaning more towards Blu Ray.

[Heff]

I have read where you can convert DVI to HDMI. Those with older sets and only component may be out of luck.

[RottenFoxBreath]

more like the companies and studios will be out of luckfor a while.
cant see joe street just picking up another hdtv/and or system/adaptor to convert the signals,when they just purchased a tv within the last 12-18 months.

also just read an article regarding the loss of tens of billions of dollars in lost sales due to hd-dvd,and blu-ray deadlocks in not deciding about what format to back.

here it is in full as you have to sign up to read it:
----------------------------------------------
new york times...

A DVD Standoff in Hollywood
By KEN BELSON
Published: July 11, 2005

LOS ANGELES - The Hollywood studio executives who gathered here late last month at an annual home entertainment conference in Century City were all chuckles and backslaps. In front of several hundred industry managers, analysts and reporters, they talked breezily about hit movies, DVD sales and prospects for the holiday season.
Then, with a few minutes left in the session, the moderator asked the question everyone was waiting for: Can the studios break the deadlock between the rival camps developing the next generation of digital video discs, players and recorders?

The question was not academic. Hollywood has not been able to unite around one of the two new formats, called Blu-ray and HD DVD. As a result, tens of billions of dollars in potential sales hang in the balance.
Before anyone could answer, Thomas Lesinski, president of home entertainment at Paramount Pictures, jumped in and said it would not benefit the studios to discuss the issue in public while behind-the-scenes negotiations were going on.

Stunned by the curt response, the audience offered nervous laughter and the other executives fell silent.

Mr. Lesinski's testy reaction was a sign of how touchy the debate over the competing formats has become. To everyone's regret, the studios are split over which group to support. Sony's studio and Disney, with 39 percent of the DVD market, back the Blu-ray group that includes Sony, Panasonic, Hewlett-Packard and others. Warner, Universal and Paramount, with 43 percent of the market, support the HD-DVD standard developed by Toshiba and NEC.

Fox, MGM, Lions Gate and others, which control the remaining 18 percent of the market, have yet to declare their allegiance definitively.

Yet the result is the same: Hollywood has been unable to throw its weight behind one format, and because the rival discs are largely incompatible, the studios have been unable to persuade the manufacturers to reach a compromise or to get one side to withdraw.

Compounding matters, many Hollywood executives have staked their reputations - both corporate and personal - on one technology or the other, making it politically difficult for them to switch sides.

Yet the studios, retailers and makers of electronics, computers and video games are still gearing up for a format war over the new technology, which promises high-definition video, enhanced audio and a slew of interactive features.

Starting this Christmas, consumers will start seeing high-definition DVD players and movies in stores. But because there is no foreseeable end to the format fight, shoppers are expected to shy away from buying the machines and discs. After all, the equipment could quickly become obsolete, just as the Sony Betamax home machines faded in the 1980's after losing out to VHS.

With no great pleasure, Mr. Lesinski said in an interview that if both sides release competing discs and machines, the companies involved will probably generate half the revenue they would with only one format. Other industry analysts are even more pessimistic.

"Both sides have so much vested in their technology that no one wants to blink, given the potential upside," said Mr. Lesinski, whose studio, Paramount, is a division of Viacom. Paramount, along with Warner Home Video and Universal Studios Home Video, will release 89 movies this year in the HD-DVD format.

The three studios have backed the HD-DVD format because the technology is essentially an upgrade of existing DVD technology, so it requires less investment and time to produce. Toshiba says it can make the discs now for a few pennies more than the current generation of discs.

Yet, as Blu-ray advocates love to point out, their discs hold more data, and thus can offer better-quality video. The technology also gives the studios and game makers room to develop new, interactive features. These extra goodies, they say, will make Blu-ray more attractive to consumers, who will have to pay about $1,000 for the first machines.

"The way to do it is to have discs chock full of benefits," said Bob Chapek, the president of the home entertainment division of Buena Vista, a unit of Disney. "Some of these things chew up a lot of capacity."

But to get all that, the Blu-ray group companies are creating entirely new production techniques that require a lot more money and time. Though Sony, Panasonic and others now sell Blu-ray recorders and rewriteable discs in Japan, they are still testing the read-only discs that the Hollywood studios need.

Indeed, 20 miles south of Hollywood, in Torrance, Calif., Panasonic, a division of Matsushita, has built a pilot production line to show that Blu-ray read-only discs can be made cheaply and quickly. To do this, Panasonic is developing a new way of coating discs with their all-important protective layer.
The test line in a clean room at the factory now spits out a disc every 4.5 seconds, and Shinya Abe, who runs Panasonic's replication task force for producing read-only Blu-ray discs, said he expected that rate to fall to one every 3.5 seconds.
We want to show Hollywood we can make read-only discs," he said.

Yet Mr. Abe and other Panasonic executives sidestepped questions about how many of the discs were usable for commercial purposes, saying it was up to the mass-market manufacturers to determine.

The issues of cost and time to market would matter less if sales of the current generation of DVD equipment were booming. But there are plenty of signs that they are not.

The studios know that the percentage of American homes with a DVD player is nearing 80 percent, or the saturation point, and that the latest converts typically buy fewer discs.

Indeed, while sales of discs are expected to rise 13 percent this year in the United States, the salad days of 20 to 30 percent annual growth are a memory. Most movie libraries are now out on DVD, and stores like Wal-Mart are slashing disc prices, which means less profit for studios.

To jump-start growth, the studios are turning to their television archives for new material. But those sales are expected to slow, too.

This is particularly bad news for studios, which rely more and more heavily on DVD sales as the video rental business shrinks and income from theaters flattens. For example, Americans spent $9.1 billion on feature movies on DVD last year, 47.9 percent of the money studios made from those films.

That's up from 28.7 percent in 1996, when videotapes still dominated.

The power of DVD sales was also apparent earlier this month, when shares of Pixar Animation Studios Inc. tumbled after the company said it expected fewer DVD sales of its film "The Incredibles."

Hollywood studio chiefs who are responsible for making five-year plans see the writing on the wall for the current generation of DVD's, and know they need something new to sell consumers. Most Hollywood executives who attended the conference here remained optimistic that ultimately they could reach a consensus and use their collective weight to persuade hardware makers to devise a hybrid solution.

"We're at the worst part of the storm now," said Mike Dunn, president of 20th Century Fox Home Entertainment. But "this will get worked out in the back room."
------------------------------------------------

so,bugger this,bring on HVD.

[Shocker Milwaukee]

I have read where you can convert DVI to HDMI. Those with older sets and only component may be out of luck.

My cable box outputs DVI & my tv has HDMI, so I bought this adapter cord:
http://www.monoprice.com/products/search.asp?keyword=1915

It works just fine. However, people with component-only inputs may be SOL, since the adoption of HDMI as the exclusive connection for HD-DVD is based in large part on the digital encryption capabilities.

[junkmalle]

The reason for HDMI only is to support encrypted digital video (HDCP) all the way from the HD-DVD player to the TV. This closes the analog hole and is the whole reason HDMI was developed. This has been the plan all along. Of course, someone will soon figure out a way around HDCP.

[ebenton]

HDMI is also supposed to contain audio. It could be difficult to connect an AV receiver *and* your HDTV to the HDMI cable. I have an HD DVR that has HDMI output. When I connect an HDMI cable to my HDTV and switch to that video input of my HDTV, the HD DVR detects that the HDMI output is being consumed, and *switches off* its optical audio output, which is connected to my AV receiver. Therefore I get no Dolby Digital or DTS when using the HDMI connector. Therefore, I don't use it. Hopefully, future HD DVD or Blu Ray players will not have this behavior. I think this whole thing needs some thinking through before implementing.

[jetfan]

Heff wrote:
I have read where you can convert DVI to HDMI. Those with older sets and only component may be out of luck.


I have a HD TIVO that only has a HDMI output, but luckily they include a converter for DVI. It works fine, I don't see any difference, my last receiver was DVI out.

Any prices set yet for the movies?

[limpy]

How do I find out if my TV has HDMI?

I have a Hitachi 57F500.

[ebenton]

See this web page here: http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/audioprinciples/interconnects/DVIHDMI.php

I don't think I have ever seen a picture of an HDMI connector on the back of an HDTV, but there are links and pictures of cables on the above web site. A picture of the cable connector should give you an idea of what the connector on the TV looks like. They sort of look like oversized USB connectors.

[ebenton]

According to what I have seen with a quick Google search, the Hitachi 57F500 has DVI input, but no HDMI. This means you would need a DVI to HDMI adapter cable, and you would need to handle the audio with separate cables, because DVI does not carry any audio signal, whereas HDMI does carry audio.

[junkmalle]

I have a HD TIVO that only has a HDMI output, but luckily they include a converter for DVI. It works fine, I don't see any difference, my last receiver was DVI out.

It works because the TIVO is sending an unecrypted digital stream to your TV. It won't work once the stream is encrypted -- which is the ONLY thing HD-DVD will output.

[waheed]

How do I find out if my TV has HDMI?

If you have this:

[waheed]

I have a HD TIVO that only has a HDMI output, but luckily they include a converter for DVI. It works fine, I don't see any difference, my last receiver was DVI out.

It works because the TIVO is sending an unecrypted digital stream to your TV. It won't work once the stream is encrypted -- which is the ONLY thing HD-DVD will output.

But, DVI also support HDCP, so I dont think it will be a problem viewing encrypted streams using DVI.

[limpy]

No such luck...

Thanks for the help.

[Bob W]

So does all this mean that you can't back up a HD movie?

[waheed]

So does all this mean that you can't back up a HD movie?

Uncertain to say. I believe sooner or later, it will be cracked. Just a matter of time.

Look at DVD Audio. which uses a high level of encyption (128 bit CPRM). Theres been a way around using windvd.

[The Stinger]

This really pisses me off! I spent $2500 for my tv 3 years ago. All I have are the componet outs. If this turns out to be true that the only way to use this next media, then there is going to be a lot of pissed off consumers.

[MOVIEGEEK]

This really pisses me off! I spent $2500 for my tv 3 years ago. All I have are the componet outs. If this turns out to be true that the only way to use this next media, then there is going to be a lot of pissed off consumers.

From all the articles I have read you will still be able to use component cables but you will be limited to 720x480p.

[The Stinger]

This really pisses me off! I spent $2500 for my tv 3 years ago. All I have are the componet outs. If this turns out to be true that the only way to use this next media, then there is going to be a lot of pissed off consumers.

From all the articles I have read you will still be able to use component cables but you will be limited to 720x480p.

Is 720X480p a HD resolution?

[waheed]

Is 720X480p a HD resolution?

No. That is standard definiton. 720x480 is the resolution current dvds use. (NTSC dvds).

[edDV]

According to what I have seen with a quick Google search, the Hitachi 57F500 has DVI input, but no HDMI. This means you would need a DVI to HDMI adapter cable, and you would need to handle the audio with separate cables, because DVI does not carry any audio signal, whereas HDMI does carry audio.

First the DVI input must support HDCP ecryption, second their may or may not be system issues with HDMI to DVI audio extraction depending on whether the AC-3 outputs come on in encrypted HD output modes. Never assume.

I have a HD TIVO that only has a HDMI output, but luckily they include a converter for DVI. It works fine, I don't see any difference, my last receiver was DVI out.

It works because the TIVO is sending an unecrypted digital stream to your TV. It won't work once the stream is encrypted -- which is the ONLY thing HD-DVD will output.

Yep, if Hollywood gets its way the HD DVD players will be a closed encrypted system using HDCP over HDMI when playing commercial HD DVD (HD or Blu-Ray standard). Analog outputs will be limited to 480p.

What hasn't been made clear is how these HD players will work with unencypted home made HD DVDRs (HDTV timeshift, MPeg4 and HDV source material). I have asked this at demos and get no response as to whether component analog outputs will support 1080i or 720p from unencrypted HD DVDR material. Current chipsets can be programmed for HD output over component analog.

Also not clear is how HD DVD will work as part of a HTPC (Home Theater PC). In this case it is Hollywood in one corner wanting no computer decryption and Microsoft wanting a HD HTPC with HD DVD playback. I expect the solution will be some closed hardware card that takes the encrypted HD DVD stream in and outputs only encrypted HDMI.


PS: This is one case where I would be in support of a class action suit in behalf of early adopter "HD Ready" TV set owners who have been left adrift without a solution for HD DVD and the "Broadcast Flag" if implemented.

The problem with class action suits is the lawyers get the millions and the individual gets a $50 coupon for a new HDTV if anything at all.

[BJ_M]

hasnt HDMI already been cracked?

no - and unlikely .. it keeps changing keys

[waheed]

second their may or may not be system issues with HDMI to DVI audio extraction depending on whether the AC-3 outputs come on in encrypted HD output modes. Never assume.

DVI does not support audio. It is Video ONLY output unlike HDMI which supports both audio and video.

[edDV]

second their may or may not be system issues with HDMI to DVI audio extraction depending on whether the AC-3 outputs come on in encrypted HD output modes. Never assume.

DVI does not support audio. It is Video ONLY output unlike HDMI which supports both audio and video.

Yes I know. HDMI to DVI (with HDCP) is for video. If encryption results in the muting of the optical and coax digital audio outputs then audio may need to be extracted from the HDMI as well.

Since they are allowing 480p component analog video, lets hope the Dolby AC-3 outputs stay on.

[waheed]

I understand what you mean. Judging by current formats, the high definition audio on dvd audio and sacd, the copy protections are strict. For example, dvd audio cannot be played back via digital output, this has been prevented to analog output only.

Dont know what the situation would be for HD DVD/Blu Ray, but they could prevent playback of HD audio via HDMI only.

But, then again, what about those whom want to watch HD on their PCs.

Audio output on HD would probably been allowed on analog as well as HDMI, but maybe prevented via other digital means (optical, coaxial etc.)

[The Stinger]

Is 720X480p a HD resolution?

No. That is standard definiton. 720x480 is the resolution current dvds use. (NTSC dvds).

Than if it turns out only with that res, I will be doing something about that. Talk to a laywer or whatever. That is such BS, I bought a HDTV for HD resolutions, not to be screwed from behind cause the movie industry wants to stop piracy! This blows, and I hope they can come up with a solution for us little guys.

[junkmalle]

But, then again, what about those whom want to watch HD on their PCs.

Microsoft is taking care of their buddies in Hollywood:

https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=274204

"NEW WIndows to Require Monitor-Based DRM"

Ah, but found this:

boxes that’ll take that HDCP DVI signal... and convert it to good ol’ non-DRMed analog RGB or even back to non-DRMed DVI

http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000230050640/

http://www.spatz-tech.de/spatz/dvi_magic.htm