crt vs. lcd

[lordmajax]

Hello,

I need to get a new tv within the next two weeks. I've been doing some research on lcd tvs. I have a few questions for people that own LCD tvs. First, I've been reading that LCD tvs have a problem with fast moving images and may leave streaks behind and that there is a problem with the color black. Is this true, if so how badly? Second, I like to watch tv while on the pc and that would require an adjustment of either a tv stand or the tv about 45 degrees. I've heard that LCD's cannot be viewed at an angle. Third, can I use any tv stand for an LCD? I would like one that swivels and needs to be about 4 ft in height so that it's level with my bed. Last, I can't make up my mind if I should buy an LCD or stick with the traditional CRT. Are CRT's pictures better than LCD? Thanks.

[ZippyP.]

It depends on how much you want to spend. A cheap LCD will have all of the problems that you describe, but a better quality/more expensive one will not. An LCD that matches the quality of a CRT will be cost a lot more, at the bottom of the price range you're better off with a CRT.

[lordmajax]

I am willing to spend between $1000-$3000 on a tv if it lcd. I like the screen size of a 27-inch crt. What would be the equivalent in lcd? Also, what is can a dvi and hdmi connection be used for?

[trhouse]

I have owned a Panasonic TC-17LA1 lcd TV for nearly two years but have never noticed the issues you mentioned. I wonder if you might be confusing plasma with lcd. I was looking at larger plasma and lcd TV's and noticed in a store the black streaks you mentioned in plasmas. It was a HD video feed of a baseball game. When the pitcher threw the ball, the path of his throwing hand had the black streak but when I looked at the lcd TV's none of them had it.

[lordmajax]

I have a 27 inch tv now, so would a 30 inch be equivalent? Do they have swivel stands for lcd tvs?

[neomaine]

lordmajax,

Actually, LCD dimensions are accurate to their advertised size. CRT TVs and computer monitors are not. They 'hide' part of their advertised lenght behind the edging around the them. That is, a 19" LCD like I have (monitor) really is 19" diagonally. A comparable monitor or TV would be 21" or 22" with only 19" viewable. Most CRT tv/monitor will have both the diagonal and viewable numbers available.

Its difficult to compare a CRT with an LCD...in terms of size anyway. The CRT is almost certainly a fullscreen (4:3) and the LCD will be a widescreen (16:9). So, if you were looking for something with a comparable screen hight, and assuming 16:9, I'd say you be close to 27" crt with a 32"-24" lcd.

As far as ghosting (the 'bleeding' effect you spoke of) what you look for in the specs is refresh rate. That is, how fast a pixel (really a set of R-G-B ones) can change from one color to the next. Anyone that plays computer games on lcd can tell you the 16ms is the absolute minimum for decent fluidness. The one I have is 12ms and I think is wonderful. These days, with prices coming down as they are, I'd make sure you get nothing less than 8ms.

(My monitor -Sceptr X9 Gamer- even has composite input. I hooked up both cable and satelite through it and was pleasantly surprised. Though crappy signal cable looked like any regular TV and the Satelite signal looked just fine. The upscaling to 1024x768 wasn't so great, but an LCD tv should have better electronics to compensate for this.)

Then you mentioned viewing angle. I find mine at 140 degrees both horizontal and vertical to be adequate. I'd find something higher if possible and use 140/140 as a minimum. Of course a good swivel may help as well....



With up to $3000 to spend, you should be able to do pretty good for yourself.

[junkmalle]

Actually, LCD dimensions are accurate to their advertised size. CRT TVs and computer monitors are not.

In the USA CRT television size refers to the viewable area not the tube size. CRT computer monitor size refers to the tube size, not the viewable area. The viewable area of a CRT computer monitor is usually about 1 inch less than the tube size.

The time for LCDs to transition from one color/brightness to another is called latency or response time. You can't trust anything manufactures say about latency -- there is no standard method of measuring it. Different manufacturers use different techniques. Look for independent reviews which standardize their measurementes. And go see the display(s) you're considering for yourself.

Latency/response time is actually quite complex. TomsHardware has some interesting information regarding it in this review:

http://graphics.tomshardware.com/display/20050526/index.html

Anandtech often discusses it in their reviews:

http://www.anandtech.com/displays/showdoc.aspx?i=2289

[ebenton]

I own a Sony 42" LCD-Projection High-Definition TV. It cost about $2100 at Circuit City back in December. I think they're cheaper now. I have not noticed any problems with shadows, blurring or ghosting of fast-moving images.

[cpotoso]

Actually, LCD dimensions are accurate to their advertised size. CRT TVs and computer monitors are not.

In the USA CRT television size refers to the viewable area not the tube size. CRT computer monitor size refers to the tube size, not the viewable area. The viewable area of a CRT computer monitor is usually about 1 inch less than the tube size.

This WAS the case until the early to mid 1990's (as my old Toshiba 19" can testify). Since then you are not correct (as you may check by taking a tape measure to any store...). CRT vendors specify the TUBE SIZE, not the viewable size (although many include this second, more informative number, in either parenthesis or a small footnote...)

[edDV]

Black level remains a problem with LCD.

Display gamma is very different for a video optimized LCD vs a computer model. The former are much more expensive currently.

The biggest problem with LCD and plasma is that interlace NTSC or PAL must be deinterlaced for progressive display. This is a severe compromise especially for the cheaper sets that do a poor decode and deinterlace. Film original DVDs will play nice from a progressive DVD player but live analog TV will have deinterlacing and scaling artifacts.

Today, most of what you watch will still be NTSC/PAL. For this reason, I like the HDTV CRT which handles both progressive and interlace sources. You will still see some scaling artifacts (native resolution is usually ~ 800-1000x1080) but you are not forced to deinterlace.

I recommend the strategy of a $600-1200 widescreen CRT now and save your money for a big screen in 12-24 mo. Prices will be much lower and quality higher (both LCD display and deinterlacing chipset technology). The CRT can then be moved to the bedroom or other secondary application.

[lordmajax]

actually, this tv is for my bedroom. The largest I could go for would be 30-inch. Are there any crt's out there that are flatter than the current 27-inch Sony kv-27fs320 that I have now? Thanks for all the information. I really appreciate the time you took to respond to my question.

[edDV]

actually, this tv is for my bedroom. The largest I could go for would be 30-inch. Are there any crt's out there that are flatter than the current 27-inch Sony kv-27fs320 that I have now? Thanks for all the information. I really appreciate the time you took to respond to my question.

Most people seem willing to trade picture quality for flat screen packaging. Style over substance always wins.

[trhouse]

My lower back pain made the move to light weight LCD from CRT no contest.

[learner1]

My friend just bought a 32-inch LCD HD-ready TV from Best Buy this last weekend for $1400.00. The spec claims to have contrast ratio of 1000. It stood next to a Samsung of the same size screen that claims a contrast ratio of 3000 but costs $600 more. The color on the Samsung is slightly prettier but the cheaper model is still pretty good. I purposely stood off to the side to watch the screen. There was no problem in viewing as in the old days when LCD had a very limited viewing angle restriction. The whole TV is only about 4 inch deep and can be placed on top of a short bookshelf. The whole thing only weighs about 30lb. I think the LCD TV has come a long way.

[hsugawar]

Last October, I bought a Sony 50" LCD RPTV and my family an I are pretty happy with it. I had been researching various brands and almost opted to buy something else by mail order, but I thank myself for not doing so without seeing the actual product. There are a variety of factors that you never see in or that are hard to tell from product specifications, like screen glare, real (perceptual) brightness, etc.

I would strongly recommend seeing the real product(s) before making a decision to spend a large amount of money.

hiro

[fritzi93]

My lower back pain made the move to light weight LCD from CRT no contest.

No joke. But I got a 32" CRT anyway, all 200 pounds of it. [oof!] It just looks better in all light conditions for a lot less money. (And considering our usual viewing distance of 10 feet or so, I wouldn't want anything bigger. YMMV.) DVDs look terrific on it, even though it's really only displaying as EDTV. And yes, progressive or interlaced input. Good luck to the OP with whatever you get.

[edDV]

My lower back pain made the move to light weight LCD from CRT no contest.

DVDs look terrific on it, even though it's really only displaying as EDTV. And yes, progressive or interlaced input. Good luck to the OP with whatever you get.

Today's DVD standard is EDTV (720x480) so there is no loss of native resolution except a small amount due to 480p delivery over analog component at 60 frames per second. For a medium size screen (under 42") there is little or no advantage to a digital connection. I'm saving my second HDMI for a true HD DVD player.

As for CRT, they have an additional advantage for DVD 480p playback and that could be called variable native display for vertical scan. Good HDTV CRT sets will change vertical scan to 480p (480 active scan lines) making a line for line progressive correspondence to the DVD output without upscaling. Horizontal resolution can easily handle a DVD's 720 horizontal pixels. This gives a 1:1 pixel correspondence to the DVD output and no scan lines are wasted on letterbox borders.

Many CRT sets also give the option to upscale although some only do this for a 480i connection. LCD and Plasma sets always need to upscale DVD 480p unless they are EDTV resolution native meaning that all 480p playback is interpolated in H and V.

The bottom line is always how they look to you side by side because other factors are at play. For example, CRT sets often get delivered with poor linearity calibration. I had mine sent back for factory service center calibration.

[hsugawar]

Yeah, there's a fundamental difference between CRT and other "modern" technologies like LCD: The CRT is flexible implementing various vertical resolutions (i.e. number of vertical scans) whereas all others have fixed resolutions. So for the latter technologies, scaling is mandatory for different resolutions from the device's native resolution. This involves A-to-D conversion as well as digital signal processing.

Another interesting things is color convergence. Those direct-panel technologies such as plasma and direct-LCD cannot avoid three separate color (RGB) "dots" visble at a very close look, but rear-projection technologies using either a color wheel with a single light source or a prism with three light sources can easily avoid this. This is somewhat visible with large TVs that have large dot pitches.

hiro

[Webster]

actually, this tv is for my bedroom. The largest I could go for would be 30-inch. Are there any crt's out there that are flatter than the current 27-inch Sony kv-27fs320 that I have now? Thanks for all the information. I really appreciate the time you took to respond to my question.

You might want to check out this 32" LCD from wally world.
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.gsp?product_id=3649951&cat=3996&type=19&dept=39...A133276%3A3996

The LCD panel is made by LG. The analog tuner is pretty good. It's pull in stations which I couldn't received on my JVC CRT TV. The HDTV display is about the same as those of projection TV (but is much better than that of the Olevia, Westinghouse, Norwood Micro etc...LCD sets) . Not quite as good as CRT. So far, I have not notice any ghost effects on fast action scenes. It also have DVI/RGB input for hooking up your computer (mind you, the best you can get is a little bit better than SVGA as a computer display.) And best of all, it only around 50 pounds. I have one of this, and so far, it worth the price. The only thing I didn't like about it is that the speaker is only 10W. The sound is acceptable, but nothing to write home about. Cost of shipping is $16.00 + tax. And if you don't like it, you could alway return it to your local Walmart less the cost of shipping. You could get a 3 years extend warranty for around 84 buck online if you wanted. I did quite a bit of research before buying this TV. It's all came down with between the 32" samsung and the Hyundai. The Hyundai win because of the price.
Hope this is of some help.

[fritzi93]

Today's DVD standard is EDTV (720x480) so there is no loss of native resolution except a small amount due to 480p delivery over analog component at 60 frames per second.

Thanks, I was unclear there, I'm afraid. Actually, I got the HDTV monitor specifically to view DVDs, and tried looking for EDTVs. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's tough to find one. But there are lots of HDTVs available now. The improvement is astonishing when playing DVDs, much better than over an analog set. And, again, one of the reasons for getting the CRT is because it accepts progressive and interlaced. The old DVD player I use with it does not have progressive output.

Oh, and surprisingly, analog cable looks better as well. Haven't even checked to see if digital cable is available here. Don't want to pay for an ATSC tuner right now either. I suspect they'll be giving them away in a couple years.

[edDV]

You might want to check out this 32" LCD from wally world.
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.gsp?product_id=3649951&cat=3996&type=19&dept=39...A133276%3A3996

Looks good from specs vs. price

"Resolution: 1366 x 768"
Excellent at the price point. Often you will see only 1024x768 or even 800x600. 1280 x 768 (~720p) or better is a good target native resolution except for very small screens.

"Contrast (CR): 500 : 1"
Here you see the compromise for LCD. If blacks were good, you could live with it, but blacks usually aren't good at this price point.

"Interfaces: 1- S-video in, 1- PC In (D-SUB 15Pin), 1- Component in, 2- Composit A/V in, 1- NTSC RF in (Antenna or cable input), 1- DVI in"

DVI in indicates this set is a bit old. New designs use HDMI.

[SatStorm]

The new LCD TVs on those sizes (>32 inch) are excellent. You won't notice the problems you mention. The problems do exist, but at the current state they are almost unoticable

The only problem is interlacing. Use a HCPC (if possible) to feed your screen and the quality boost!
Your VCD/SVCDs and low bitrate DVDs (including your DVD Shrink back ups), gonna look bad on the LCD screen. CRT screens with the lower resolution tend to cover much of the digital noise mpeg overall has

[edDV]

Today's DVD standard is EDTV (720x480) so there is no loss of native resolution except a small amount due to 480p delivery over analog component at 60 frames per second.

Thanks, I was unclear there, I'm afraid. Actually, I got the HDTV monitor specifically to view DVDs, and tried looking for EDTVs. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's tough to find one. But there are lots of HDTVs available now.

HD CRT's usually surpass EDTV (but most fall below 720p at 800-1050x1080) so most are listed as HD Ready and usually accept 480p, 1080i and for the best ones, 720p. In most cases 720p will be downscaled to something like 1000x1080 and 1080i is actually displayed at 800-1000x1080. Most of these "HD-Ready" CRTs can handle 480i/480p DVDs but cheaper ones may limit horizontal resolution on the analog component "wideband" inputs by using cheap bandpass filters.

"EDTV" mainly applies to LCD and plasmas that are limited by a fixed "native resolution". EDTV by broadcast and DVD definition is 720x480 but today's EDTV LCD and plasma native resolution is usually around 852 x 480. The "HD Ready" designation seems to indicate a native resolution higher than 852x480 but it is unclear to me where the line is drawn. I would define 800x720 as the lower limit. Some might argue 1280x720 should be the lower limit since this matches the ATSC specification.

The improvement is astonishing when playing DVDs, much better than over an analog set. And, again, one of the reasons for getting the CRT is because it accepts progressive and interlaced. The old DVD player I use with it does not have progressive output.

You are seeing the increased resolution now. A good "cinema" quality progressive DVD player would be the next step up. It would need to be connected to your "wideband" component analog HDTV inputs and the TV and DVD player would need to be set to 480p.

ref
http://www.dvdfile.com/news/special_report/production_a_z/3_2_pulldown.htm

[hhhhbk]

would get a massive crt
can get 50" + widescreen ones on sale for same price as a tiny LCD

LCD needs to improve in quality and come dramatically down in price before id even consider one

am impressed by some of the dell monitors and would be up for one on the cheap
but still a little pricy for my liking
will see whats happening in a couple of years if my crt packs in

[Epicurus8a]

Personally, I'm in the market fort a DLP unit. Right now Samsung is my choice, but that could change.

http://www.dlp.com/Default.asp?bhcp=1

[Webster]

The only problem is interlacing. Use a HCPC (if possible) to feed your screen and the quality boost!

Interlace doesn't come in to play with me. My video source is from either HD STB (via components input), or from my HTPC (via DVI input) playing uncompressed ISO files of my movies. The composite input is reserve for the X-box. So far I'm happy with it.

As a bonus, if you use WindowXP with this TV, you don't even have to use Powerstrip to compensate for the overscan. It is automatically detected and compensated for it.

[sullen]

The Wal-Mart LCD listed above has very similar specs to the Syntax over at Fry's/Outpost:

http://shop4.outpost.com/product/4431536?site=sr:SEARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG

They Syntax appears to have a little bit on the Hyundai such as price, but most everything else is the same.