Capture cards hardware(and some software) questions

[Z-C]

Hi everyone.
After being around for approx 2 weeks and after doing some reading, I think that it's time that I raise up some questions that were unclear to me.

First of all I'll state my purpose of this - I'm looking to buy a capture card(obviously) that will be mainly used to capture home movies(some of them are quite old), edit them, and eventually store them in some digital format(probably DVD).

Along the way of reading articles and threads I've come up with several questions, I'll try to focus on capture cards hardware questions on this thread:

1. VFM/WDM - what's the difference between the card's type. Why do each one suit for different capturing program(one is better off with VirtualDUB and the other with iuVCR).

2. I see many controversial thoughts about the ATI AIW cards. digitalfaq.com praises those cards, while many others go against them. Are they that good/bad? also I've read that they don't handle well with bad source unless I get a TBC.

3. external cards/capture devices - only do DV captures? can I get some thoughts about those, because I didn't find much info regarding them.

4. I've read that the Brook'/Conex' chipsets are low-quality. Is that true? then what are the good chipsets? I thought most/all cards are based on those chipsets.

5. I have an AMD Athlon XP 1700+ with 512 RAM and an MSI GF4 MX 440. I'm thinking of buying a card that only does AVI because as far as I've seen it's cheaper, better quality, and editable. Am I correct here? Will my system be able to handle such software encoding? By the way, can anyone give me an estimated time difference between capturing semi-hardware/software mpeg and pure software AVI(huffyUV or MJPEG).

6. one last question - software. I've seen that VirtualDub is very popular. Is that the best program? as far as I've read on digitalfaq.com, I'm better off using the default program that came with the card. Furthermore, digitalfaq.com does recommend doing on-the-fly mpeg captures with the right card(ATI AIW to their opinion), while other forums(like doom9) goes completely against that thought. Isn't that a small contradiction?

Sorry about the length of this message. I did my best to sum it all up in order to get better answers.

Thanks in advance for any help given.

Guy.

[pfh]

By home movies, are you refering to vhs, Hi8, Reel, etc.?
ATI makes good products and they do have some nice AIW's and sometimes it's just right for those looking for the all-in-one solution. If you are content with the video card you have then look at the other pure capture cards for getting you vids into the computer. But like a lot of people, they need to upgrade the graphics adapter so why not get one that has input and output.
As for VirtualDub- I'd recommend gettin your feet wet with OEM s/w. Figure out what's what 1st before looking at VDub. Besides- Vdub may not work with whatever you end up buying. It's a bit complicated for novice.
Your system- hmmm... it's at the low end as far as CPU but what about the rest? Drive space? Dvd burner? Input/output?
New External solutions are popping up all the time as of late. Some capture mpeg AND avi some just do one or the other.
Also, stand-alone dvd recorders are at very tempting prices and might be good choice. Drawback is the limited editing.
Give a few more details about computer and give us an idea of the material you have and what you'd like to do with it in terms of editing like cuts, fades, dissolves, transistions, etc.

[Z-C]

Hi again.

Thanks for your reply.

I'll try to be more specific: Computer specs as as mentioned above. HD size is 120GB and I don't disqualify the option of purchasing another separate HD just for capturing. I do have a NEC DVD burner(16x speed as far as I know). as far as I've checked it supported DVD-R/W and DVD+R/W.

About the source - mainly VHS tapes(or "small VHS" tapes from a camcorder). There are some old 8mm films too that need to be captured. Some of the movies are quite old I guess(10-30 years).
I do need to edit. By edit I mean cutting, joining, adding transitions and effects and also adding music. Nothing fancy - just some nice style effects.

Thanks again! Hope to hear some more suggestions and help.

[redwudz]

IMO, capture cards give a generally better quality video file. But with a lot of work, both for you and the computer to get to the final DVD product. Best quality is probably with the huffy codec, but you will have large file sizes. Then you edit, encode, author and burn.

You should consider using a TBC with VCR tapes. They rarely seem to have a stable picture, especially older ones.

I use a ADVC-100 and convert the VHS videos to DV. Maybe not as good of quality as a capture card, but a whole lot simpler and faster. Doesn't require a super fast CPU or hard drive. DV is easy to edit.

I can encode the DV easily to MPEG-2 for DVD. VHS is not that great of quality (At least mine) in the first place, so I doubt I'm losing much in the DV conversion process.

VirtualDub is kind of the Swiss Army Knife for video. Great for filtering. You can edit with it, but there are better editors. Frameserves to an encoder, does a whole lot of things. Captures well with the right video card. Good for conversion to XVID, also.

[mats.hogberg]

Seems like I'm banging the Hauppage drum really loud lately, but as my experiences with it are nothing but good, I can't resist. PVR250/350 is really simple to use, demands nothing of your computer resources while capturing (continue to play Doom3 all you like while capturing - neither your capture nor your game will suffer) and captures to a format ready for authoring to Video DVD. If you're going to edit, mpeg is not the best of formats, so in this case, an AVI card might be better suited to your needs. But then, you really need a bigger HDD.
DV "captures" aren't captures, and as such don't need a capture card at all, just a FireWire port (and obviously good HDD transfer rate to keep up with the data flow from DV source to computer).

/Mats

[edDV]

I like to approach the problem as a process optimization. There are many paths to a DVD, if that is your goal. This is a broad area of interest.

The most basic problems most people are trying to solve are:

- Conversion of VHS, 8mm, Hi8, laserdisc libraries to DVD (or CD) for either preservation or accessability. Includes backing up commercial media and may include restoration.

- Recording broadcast material for personal storage and use. Also the optimization of a display environment from PDA to home theater.

- Creation of original content from camcorder or computer generated sources. This can include serious semi-pro editing and effects work.

- Others may forcus on an area of technology as a personal interest.

Equipment selection depends on a good definition of the goal and the level of expendature and hands on tweaking one will invest for the desired quality.

Everything is a trade off of skillset, time and money.

For the quickest path from a VHS tape or TV broadcast to a DVD, its hard to beat a standalone DVD recorder. If you want to add simple edits and assert more control, then maybe a PVR-250 Mpeg capture card and simple MPeg2 editing/authoring will get the job done. For higher quality and more intensive editing/effects, then DV format may be the best capture and intermediate editing format. If one desires to strip the video down to the pixels and rebuild with complex filtering for restoration, then uncompressed capture may be the best path.

[winifreid]

I capture my home movies just as you describe and use a leadtek 2000XP (they are cheap, now). I use the bundled Ulead Video studio to edit. Since I add transitions and such, I capture to picvideo avi (a little more compressed than huffyuv) with bundled winfast pvr. My final DVDs look as good as the original. I only have an 80 gig drive, but I delete the captures after I edit them.

[Z-C]

Hi again.

I appreciate all of your answers, and the share of information.

However(and I don't mean to be rude), I didn't really get any of my questions answers. I realize that my original post is long, but it shows that most of the facts that you presented I already know.

If some of you could please take a look at my specific questions and try to answer them(or some of them) specifically, I'd be very grateful.

Have a good day everyone.

Guy.

[pfh]

How about this then-
I recommend the PVR250/350 for now and use it to convert your vhs. Considering your system and entry level into video work this would be a wise choice.
I think if you did this then come back and read edDV's very well written post the "light bulb" would go off.
Your 8mm films are beyond your ability at this point.

[reboot]

1.) I have only used WDM on BT878 cards, with computer speed, hard drive speed/size, codec/compression, and dropped frames issues.
Not real high on my list of purchases...

2.) Great if you want to upgrade your video at the same time. Not great if you want to upgrade your video later, and lose capture ability, unless you again upgrade to an ATI.

3.) Firewire does DV-AVI, USB can do (in most cases) avi and mpg (with the right software). USB has speed issues capturing full D1 mpeg.

4.) They're not low quality, they're just cheap. They rely on your computer's CPU to do all the work. A hardware card like the Hauppauge PVR-250/350/500 does not. (Notice I did NOT mention the 150. Personally, I think the 150 is a mistake, and releasing it with drivers that don't work is another mistake. Then upgrading the drivers later caused other issues, which is yet another mistake).

5.) Your system might handle a "soft" card, providing you have a separate drive for capture, and don't do anything else on the computer at all, turn off the screen saver, etc., during captures.

6.) Everyone has an opinion. Here's mine.
digitalfaq has some valid points, Doom 9 has some valid points. Mostly it depends on what your source is, and what you want the end product to be.
If you're going to do a ton of editing, and want the utmost in quality, capture to avi, edit, encode, author, burn. Time consuming to say the least, whether you use a TBC type of device like the Canopus ADVC-110 or a "soft" card.
If you want to capture VHS to DVD, with little or no editing, and some speed, get a hardware card.
The Doom9 bunch think that their way is the ONLY way, and everyone else should get a life or fall in line like good little soldiers.
In the real world, only YOU can decide how much to spend, how much time you're willing to dedicate to the project(s), and how good the quality you expect from the end result.

[Z-C]

Reboot wow, great answers!

thanks

About my first question - I asked what WDM/VFM are? from your answer I guess you misunderstood my question... I don't even know what they are but I still hear those terms all the time.

I'm tending more to get a normal AVI capturing card. That way I go for quality and editing possibilities(editing is very important). Further more, I will be able to spend the spare cash on a new HD and stuff like that.

However, I'd like to be sure that my system is capable of this. There's no problem with dedicating my system for captures when I make them, but even if I close all programs, reboot, defrag and don't touch my computer will my machine still be able to handle the processing without dropping every second frame?

Could you give me an estimated time for capturing with my machine AVI uncompressed and an ETA for capturing semi hardware semi software MPEG? I'd like to know how much more 'time consuming' AVI will be.

One last note - For my needs Matrox/Haupagge(maybe Canopus too?) cards are unnecessary. I guess ATI AIW isn't good for me too because I don't want to upgrade my video card. So what other options do I have? what are good quality cards that only do software AVI? or is there no such thing because all of them are actually cheap 'cause they lean on my PC.

Thanks again.

[edDV]

Reboot wow, great answers!

thanks

About my first question - I asked what WDM/VFM are? from your answer I guess you misunderstood my question... I don't even know what they are but I still hear those terms all the time.

I'm tending more to get a normal AVI capturing card. That way I go for quality and editing possibilities(editing is very important). Further more, I will be able to spend the spare cash on a new HD and stuff like that.

However, I'd like to be sure that my system is capable of this. There's no problem with dedicating my system for captures when I make them, but even if I close all programs, reboot, defrag and don't touch my computer will my machine still be able to handle the processing without dropping every second frame?

Could you give me an estimated time for capturing with my machine AVI uncompressed and an ETA for capturing semi hardware semi software MPEG? I'd like to know how much more 'time consuming' AVI will be.

One last note - For my needs Matrox/Haupagge(maybe Canopus too?) cards are unnecessary. I guess ATI AIW isn't good for me too because I don't want to upgrade my video card. So what other options do I have? what are good quality cards that only do software AVI? or is there no such thing because all of them are actually cheap 'cause they lean on my PC.

Thanks again.

WDM vs VFW is well covered with Google FAQ but here is a quick summary to get you started. VFW is the old Microsoft standard (pre XP, pre advanced DirectShow). In practical terms, VFW requires specific device drivers to carry the load. That means you are at the mercy of the hardware manufacturer's driver support or those from 3rd party providers (e.g. the Brooktree class cards and it's cult of driver/filter writers). I will skip the history and sociology of this movement for now and just summarize this as a heavy geek path.

Old VFW hardware (e.g. the older Pinancle-Miro DC series) is risky because manufaturer driver support is frozen back around Y2K with only a few maintenance releases since. You are at the mercy of 3rd parties for ongoing driver development.

The consumer and professional world have moved on to Direct X, Direct Show and WDM where Microsoft is carrying the driver load at the API level. Most devices are written to the Direct Show API and variations of the DV standard generally targeted at DVD Mpeg2 as the goal. The benefit is a much more standardized environment and format compatibility from home camcorders to broadcast environments.

The side shows include the competition of the various home theater environments (ATI,Showshifter-BeyondTV, Microsoft Media Center 2005, Tivo, cable-satt boxes,et.al.) and the intense competition for future ultracompression standards (wmv,rc1,h.264,Divx, etc) including HDTV.

I think you should try the uncompressed route as a learning experience. Get a cheap VFW card and a large HDD first, then play. Learn VirtualDub, huffyuv, etc. Get some appreciation of the problems at the base level.

After your experience increases, you will be able to define your next step. You may then see the benefits of direct compression to MPeg or DV and how they can solve your particular problem.

[reboot]

However, I'd like to be sure that my system is capable of this. There's no problem with dedicating my system for captures when I make them, but even if I close all programs, reboot, defrag and don't touch my computer will my machine still be able to handle the processing without dropping every second frame?

All you can do is try it. A high quality capture using Huffyuv at 352x240 is far better than one at 720x480 with dropped frames.
If you keep the aspect down, and use a separate drive for captures, they should be OK. Some software is much better than others at maintaining sync too. VirtualVCR seems to work best for some, others have no trouble with virtualdub, Mainconcept mpeg encoder (also captures avi!), and a few others.

Could you give me an estimated time for capturing with my machine AVI uncompressed and an ETA for capturing semi hardware semi software MPEG? I'd like to know how much more 'time consuming' AVI will be.

Capture happens in real time. If you have a 2 hour tape, it'll take 2 hours to capture. A 1 hour TV show takes 1 hour.

One last note - For my needs Matrox/Haupagge(maybe Canopus too?) cards are unnecessary. I guess ATI AIW isn't good for me too because I don't want to upgrade my video card. So what other options do I have? what are good quality cards that only do software AVI? or is there no such thing because all of them are actually cheap 'cause they lean on my PC.

Although there are about 5000 different cards, there's only 3 or 4 chip makers. Each card uses one of those chips, or combination of, for video. Audio is directly routed through your sound card.
Conexant BT878 is the (sort of) industry standard, and here's where you would use the WDM drivers. Plenty of support, and about every free capture software around will work.
Phillips also makes a chipset, and I haven't heard much about them yet, but others probably have.
The others aren't worth mentioning AFAIC.

[Z-C]

Thanks again for the both of you. you're making things much clearer for me.

So basically, the best chipset for capturing without a hardware encoding is BT878? and it also uses WDM which is much more supported. Am I right so far?

So if I go for this chipset, does it really matter what card I get? can you suggest some manufactors that are good quality? and by the way, I don't mind spending more money if theres a better chipset/card for AVI captures.

One last thing - you said that I might need to do half D1 captures(352x240), because of my system specs. Will that have better quality then a hardware encoder capturing and encoding MPEG/DV? then I might achieve Full D1 res easily - 720x480. Or am I wrong here?

One last note - I don't want to buy a cheap card to experiment. I'd like to do some research now and buy a quality card and start working. I'm sure it will take me some time to get quality captures made, but I still want to buy good hardware now. No point in getting crap.

Good day everyone

[mats.hogberg]

I still argue for the Hauppage card. What's "better" in software encoding is that it's not necessarily made in real time, and can be done in several passes. Of course, when doing realtime captures, it's just one pass. Regardless of system specs, you can do full D1 captures @>10000 kbps mpeg2 with a hardware encoder. Only bottle neck is HDD space.

/Mats

[reboot]

So basically, the best chipset for capturing without a hardware encoding is BT878? and it also uses WDM which is much more supported. Am I right so far?

The BT878 is but one of a few "soft" capture chips.
WDM is a set of drivers to work with those chips in Windows.

So if I go for this chipset, does it really matter what card I get? can you suggest some manufactors that are good quality? and by the way, I don't mind spending more money if theres a better chipset/card for AVI captures.

Pretty much anything will do. All of them come with some kind of software which usually sucks, but the hardware is almost identical.

One last thing - you said that I might need to do half D1 captures(352x240), because of my system specs. Will that have better quality then a hardware encoder capturing and encoding MPEG/DV? then I might achieve Full D1 res easily - 720x480. Or am I wrong here?

"Better quality" is a subjective thing. A cheap avi card, with your system, could be prone to all sorts of capture problems. Taking a smaller aspect capture in 352x240 and then encoding it to 720x480 mpeg-2 can be good, or it can be bad. Too many variables.

One last note - I don't want to buy a cheap card to experiment. I'd like to do some research now and buy a quality card and start working. I'm sure it will take me some time to get quality captures made, but I still want to buy good hardware now. No point in getting crap.

Then get the Hauppauge. Capture in Full D1 720x480 mpeg-2 at high bitrate, and you don't have to worry about quality, encoding time, or any of that crap.
The card does quite good at VHS and TV captures, and can produce some stunning video at the right settings (bitrate/filtering), which can be changed easily. Because the card's hardware is controlled by software, a few tweaks, and you can change brightness, contrast, sharpness, and quite a few other things.
Undocumented, it will also capture at up to 15mbps (although the software only says 12mbps), or as low as you want.
It will capture in SVCD format (480x480 @ 2500kbps) or even a non-standard VCD (mpeg 2, not mpeg 1) @ 352x240.
If you don't want to purchase "crap", don't by a cheap avi card at all. IMHO they're ALL CRAP!

[thrasimacus]

Not sure if you got a card yet so I’ll add my 2 cents.

I have an AIW and had a 250. A lot of people say that AIW is junk and that the 250 is much better. I was somewhat not 100% satisfied with the AIW so I bought a 250.

For what it is worth, and in my own opinion based on my own experience, there is nothing that the 250 can do that the AIW doesn't do better. The AIW
8500 and the 9600's give a much nicer capture. In fact it may shock you just how good. The 250 lacks in this department. Though I must add that the 250 is not bad, not bad at all. However, the quality difference is something that is obvious right away.

Another thing that is much better in the AIW cards compared to the 250 is the software. The AIW software actually is quite sweet. Actually it is the best capture software period in this budget. Very flexible. Can capture almost any codec, Huffyuv, MPEG2 right away in very very good quality.

The main problems with the AIW are that 1 they are very aggressive in MACROPROTECTION issues and in fact it seems so aggressive that they even destroy non protected video (your own hi8, VHS cam movies) if they are not in tip top shape. So yes, if you plan to capture things other than 1st rate non protected sources, you need a TBC. Sucks yeah I know.

Another problem with the AIW is that their AGC is too aggressive. This is mainly the same problem as above. I'm not sure a TBC would fix all the problems like White spots in light areas. I found the 250 wasn't much better in this regard either so I returned it.

If you do get a TBC, I would think you would be happy with an AIW but if you think you are going to start making studio releases... you'll find that you need more equipment and perhaps a better card.

I am looking into the canopus line. It sounds like an excellent line and i like what certain things about it... but its something you just don't know until you try. I have an AIW and I am contemplating getting a canopus also. Keep both but we'll see. The AIW has some things i just wouln't want to lose.

My recommendation to you would be to go with an AIW. That is something you can try (buy it at BestBuy or something) and if you don't like it, return it. The canopus is expensive, it is not flexible (only caps DV) and is a special order that no store fill take back. You can only return it for an exchange or store credit...

VirtualDub is not what you think and I wouldn't want to discourage you from it. It is not hard to use, you may as well learn to use the right tool right off the bat and not waste your time. It is not timeline edit tool. It is more like a render, filter, fix-it tool. For time line functions, you can use WinMovie maker (free), or something like Pinacle (cheap...but good), or Premiere or Vegas. Chances are Pinnacle and Vdub will be what you'll use. If you get an AIW, you'll save yourself $100-150 and not have to buy the pinnacle software, it comes with the retail edition of the AIW cards. It is not some cheap junk software that normally comes bundled with hardware. It is good and will do all that you mentioned. I almost threw it out and decided to try it one day. I was shocked. It is a great piece of software and in some ways kicks Vegas and Premiere's ass. Then i found out it won all kinds of awards and is actually very respected. I don't use it myself (I already own other software that I learned to use), but I'm sure you'll like it.

[mats.hogberg]

there is nothing that the 250 can do that the AIW doesn't do better.

There is one thing: Work exactly the same, regardless of computer specs or computer load. That's the big difference between pure hardware and "hardware assisted" encoders - the latter rely on the CPU to do (part of) the work.

/Mats

[alebertaz]

I confirm: I tried many capture cards...conclusion: AIW series with Theater chip are the best

[Z-C]

Hello again.

I think that we're missing the target here guys.

I need the card in order to capture home movies. Some of them are extremely old and their quality was severely damaged during the years. I don't mind spending some money, but I want to get good quality. and one more very important issue to keep in mind - I want to edit. Not just to cut & paste - I mean all kinds of editing job.

So I guess that AIW and Hauppauge that you suggested aren't right for me. AIW - is also a video card which I don't need, and it is known for having problems with bad sources(unless I get a TBC which I won't get atleast for now).
Hauppauge only captures into MPEG which is not right for extensive editing.

So what else can I go for to get both quality and editing possibilities when capturing from possibily bad source?

[junkmalle]

You'll probably want something like the Canopus ADVC 300 to capture:

http://www.canopus.us/US/products/ADVC300/pm_advc300.asp

This is a DV capture box that connects to your computer via firewire. It has a built in line TBC, proc amp and filtering.

[razorbackjedi]

My vote is definitely for the Canopus ADVC products, I use the ADVC 100 Firewire box. I capture with ScenAlyzer Live (NEVER DROPS FRAMES!!) and have guaranteed A/V lock no matter of clip length. Editing is done with Premiere Pro, If Im going to DVD I encode with TMPGEnc then author with TMPGEnc DvD Author. If Im going to stay with avi format I use either AutoGKNOT or Dr DivX to encode. This seems like a alot of work, but I get the best quality files period!

[SatStorm]

- Any cheap BT8xxx based card (with btwincap drivers) can do miracles THE HARD WAY

- ATI are good mostly for "true" NTSC. PAL users may look elsewhere (latest models are far better the previous ones, but still issues pop up). TBC is a must for those cards

- Canopus / DVin cards, are the best choice for the PAL users and among the good choices for the NTSC users. You "capture" (transfer that is...) easy and with great quality. Beyond that, the way is "hard", like the bt8xxx cards

- Cheap PVR cards with embedded mpeg encoders like Hauppauge PVRs are "mediocre" solutions. In the case of 350/250, you have a so / so picture (like capturing 352 x 480/576 on a bt8xxx card without any sharpness on...) with good encoding (you can encode 1/2 D1 at 2700kb/s and have very few macroblocks, almost unoticable) "out of the box"... This is enough for most users thats why they love those cards... Personally I use my PVR250 only for "fast and dirty" captures, because I can't accept the low picture quality it offers, compared my bt8xxx cards (I have more than one!) and the State Of The Art old trusty Asus 7700 (TOP picture quality, for the "hardway" fans like myself)....


IMHO: If Mainconcept 1.4.2 didn't have that "problem" with the 1/2 D1 Captures (when you encode realtime to 1/2 D1 mpeg 2 using MC1.4.2, you have a kind of "statering" on the bottom of the screen - It is a bug I hope the next version gonna fix it...), then I would recomend ONLY bt8xxx cards (or older nvidia ones) with Mainconcept... Far better and detailed picture any Hauppauge PVR or other cheap built in hardware mpeg 2 encoder cards...

[ozymango]

I need the card in order to capture home movies. Some of them are extremely old and their quality was severely damaged during the years. I don't mind spending some money, but I want to get good quality. and one more very important issue to keep in mind - I want to edit. Not just to cut & paste - I mean all kinds of editing job.

So what else can I go for to get both quality and editing possibilities when capturing from possibily bad source?

I think what you want is The Ultimate Perfect Video Capture Card, and when you find it, please let me know!

Seriously, first, I hope the quality of the responses so far is as helpful and interesting to you as it is to me. Second, I really don't think there's a single solution that will give you everything you want, you may be mildly SOL here. Or, rather, in order to tweak one thing you want in one way, you'll either have to give up something else or pay $$$.

Howeve, based only on your specific and immediate needs, I would personally recommend:

* A card or external device that does AVI captures, not MPEG, because for editing (assuming anything more than cut n' paste), AVI will keep your quality up. Unless you want to spend more money for an MPEG editor. Again, you can pretty much have it all, if you spend $$$$.

* Your old movies are the wild-card here -- this 8mm or Super 8mm film that you're looking to transfer? If so, we have to factor in some kind of transfer mechanism for this, or send you out to a company that does this kind of work (a whole 'nother ball game).

* "Damaged" videotape and/or film is also another issue -- is this actual physical damage that needs physical restoration, or are we just talking about getting the best possible picture out of physically okay tapes/films that are faded/color problems/warped picture/funky playback issues?

And that's just for starters, and while some of these issues overlap, some of these issues require additional hardware/software and then it's more $$$$$$.

I agree with those who say that you really are probably best served by just playing with stuff for starters. You need to get your "chops" down and find what satisfies you -- and from your posts it sounds like you have very particular needs and desires that differ from any other person (as we all have). So ultimately you need to be happy, and while we can be of some help, there's a lot of subjective stuff that only you can figure out.

Based on that as a starting point, I recommend buying yourself a basic AVI capture card, like the Hauppauge WinTV Go card (about $50, cheaper on sale, seen them as low as $25). They're simple, the capture quality is excellent, and it will give you both good service and a good idea of what to expect in terms of result quality. You may find that the time it takes to encode avi to mpg is just too long for your needs, and then an mpeg capture card becomes necessary. But you can figure that out as you go.

Good luck and, more importantly, have fun!

[red lion]

I not long ago bought the Hauppage pvr250 to capture my old vhs home movies and have had exellent results..
First i went from small video cassette to vhs then to mpeg2 then dvd...
This is also a hardware encoder which is a bonus..

[dreamking12]

I'm using the ATI 8500 and am getting terific results using it with the Macrovision driver hack, without a TBC.

[tluxon]

They way I understand it, one of the keys to your dilemma is that you have home movies, some of which are quite old, that you want to digitize effectively and be able to edit beyond the scope of cut-and-paste.

When it comes to old home videos, I agree that you'll need something for time base correction. They're not cheap, but I might lean toward something like the JVC-HR-S9911U S-VHS VCR for playback.

When it comes to editing, what works best for you may hinge on how much beyond cut-and-paste editing you wish to do. I'd like to suggest that you take advantage of the free 30-day trial (full function) of Mpeg Video Wizard (http://www.womble.com/) to see if it might do most of what you're looking for. It's an extremely fast and surprisingly robust mpeg editor. It has a number of transitional effects and allows you to add in your own audio. Also, some DVD authoring programs provide additional opportunities to add in transitions and audio.

I don't think anyone questions the speed and ease-of-use of Mpeg Video Wizard, and if it looks like it'll give you enough control in the editing process, you might want to give more consideration to the mpeg-2 route.

From what I've seen, a DVD recorder is capable of as nice a quality mpeg-2 as any capture card available, so you might want to look in that direction. You can use the DVD recorder to capture in highest quality to a rewriteable DVD and copy the resulting VOBs from the rewriteable DVD to your PC for mpeg-2 editing.

If you're like me, time is more valuable than money and you want a solution that gives you the best quality:time ratio. This is definitely not the cheapest solution, but it may very well be one of the quickest and easiest ways to get you where you want to go without sacrificing a lot of quality.

All success to you,

Tim

[thrasimacus]

I'm using the ATI 8500 and am getting terific results using it with the Macrovision driver hack, without a TBC.

what wdm?
what MMC?
What exact driver driver hack 'patch'?

What have you ben doing? VHS to MPEG2 or something else... like, cable TV to MPEG2, or DVD to MPEG2?

[thrasimacus]

I think what you want is The Ultimate Perfect Video Capture Card, and when you find it, please let me know! biggrin.gif

Yeah. But It is good his doing his homework before buying. Something most people don't. We should have started out with there is no such card. ..

If your sources are indeed old and VHS.

You will need (in order of importance);
- a top quality VCR. Top quality doesn't mean most expensive. ~$400ish
can get you something OK. Mkae sure you test it, "quality" is very relative. Don't buy this online unles you know what you are getting and that it indeed is good for your eyes.
- a good quality cap card.
- a full frame TBC for the times the VCR doesn't cut it.
- an external proc amp for very old and damaged tapes


This what you need for what you want to do, and you need all these things. Since money is an issue, you will make sacrifices and hence sacrifices in quality. You'll have more success with some sources than others... such is reality for everyone and that’s OK.

My advice to you is this. Spend what you budget is and don't stress yourself too much. It's not worth it.

Old tapes and especially B&W old tapes are the most difficult to restore. If you are making backups of color store bought films a (like kickboxer, or bloodsport LOL) ... that is less work, and much less hassle. Though frankly you can pick those up for $2.99 on DVD almost every place you go these days.

A top quality VCR and a good cap card will let you back up most of your collection, unless they are all in bad shape. Then you may have lot's of probs unless you get the full range of equipment for what you want to do.


As for hardware capture of the H cards... ATI is also hardware for MPEG2 and MPEG1. H cards can only do MPEG. If they could also do AVI, DIVX, and almost an unlimited list of codec captures like the ati, the H cards wouldn't be 100% hardware either. The h cards fix this problem by not supporting anything other than MPEG at all (hence stay full hardware MPEG2). An ati MPEG2 capture at DVD resolution only utilizes like 3% of my CPU... This isn't an issue.

The H cards ARE good cards. Just nothing I would consider keeping for myself. Having said this, I do think that the AIW cards are better, 8500DV and up, but I don't think they are great.

- they support avi and almost all codecs (not something I value to be honest).

- better software (something I do value).

- slightly (but surely)better quality captures.

The canopus may be the best cap card out there... dun know. That is something i would have to try and see. There are H fans that say the same for H cards but my eyes, my monitors, and TV's don't agree.

[dreamking12]

Hi thrasimacus I am using the standard Catalyst drivers and VDub to capture. The MV patch I d/l'd had 3 different patches in it, I couldn't find the exact one on the web. I can email it if anyone wants.
Doom9 has a patch here:
http://www.doom9.org/index.html?/software2.htm
I am capturing VHS.
Also let me ask, the picture and sound are great, however the resulting DVD's don't quite take up the full screen. Maybe a 1/4 border around the edge when played on TV.
I'm NTSC capturing at 720 x 576 and encoding in CCE without any cropping in either prog.
Is it normal for it to not quite take up the entire screen? Anything I can do?