PROBLEMS RE-encoding 23.976fps XVID --> DVD

[5t3v3]

If this topic has been posted several times before, I apologise in advance, but after doing a search, I found posts which were similar to my problems, but werent of any help, so here goes...

According to GSpot, the Xvid files I am trying to re-encode to DVD are 23.976fps, but when I re-encode them to DVD MPEG2 I get choppy/stuttery playback, although the sound is fine (after multiplexing). Here is what I have done.

In TMPGEnc, I loaded my source file (23.976fps) and loaded the DVD(NTSC) template. Set the following settings (after following a guide from this site):

Aspect Ratio: 16:9 (I do want it set to this)
Frame rate (Unlocked): 23.976 fps (internally 29.97)
Rate control mode: Constant bitrate (CBR)
Bitrate: 3000kbits/sec
Encode mode: 3:2 pulldown when playback (have also tried interlace and non-interlace)
Motion search precision: Motion estimate search (fast)

After encoding, the video plays smooth for a couple seconds, then goes stuttery for a few seconds, then smooth, then stuttery, etc... all the way through the episode.

So I tried just changing the Frame rate to 29.97 and setting Encode mode to Interlace and non-interlace, which took away the smooth then stutter, smooth then stutter effect, however, the playback now just looks constantly jolty. Its not really obvious, but its enough to notice it, especially on smooth panning scenes. So i tried re-encoding with different framerates (23.976, 24, 25, 29.97 and 30) with different encode modes, changing the motion search precision and each setting didnt seem to make much difference. Each time the video played back and was jolty in some form or another. Although the smoothest result was when I used 29.97 with Interlace encode mode, although it wasnt fluid. I even tried checking the "Do not framerate convert" box on the advanced tab for each framerate (23.976 and 29.97) and that didnt make any difference either.

When I playback the source file in my PC DVD software (MSI DVD) and Windows Media Player, it plays perfectly smooth, and there are no bad frames in the episode at all after scanning with VirtualDub, so it must be something thats going wrong when I re-encode. Is it something I've overlooked thats causing this? Each time I re-encode, i am only doing the ES video stream, no audio. I also have the DirectShow Multimedia File Reader priority at the top of the list in the VFAPI plug-in tab of the Environmental settings.


The curious thing is, whenever I re-encode 25fps PAL Xvid files using the DVD(PAL) template, OR 29.97fps Xvid files with the DVD(NTSC) template I dont get any problems at all, but when its a 23.976fps source file, using the DVD(NTSC) template, I get these problems.

Can anyone help?

[Baldrick]

how do you author?
does this happen with all 23,976 fps video?
tried any other encoder?

i haven't had any problem encoding 23,976 with 3:2pulldown using tmpgenc and playing on my pioneer dvd player.

[5t3v3]

I use TMPGEnc DVD Author to author my DVDs, however, since I was finding that I was wasting DVD-R's i watch the m2v output from TMPGEnc in my DVD player software (MSI DVD) on my PC before authoring, to see if its smooth or not. Havent tried using any other encoding software for 23.976 video.

How about converting the video to 25fps or 29.97fps using another program, and then using the PAL template in TMPGEnc to make the MPEG2 video for DVD? Since I dont have any trouble with 25fps video.

[5t3v3]

I tried converting my 23.976fps video to 25fps in VirtualDub, and its plays back smooth, except every now and then, it skips very slightly, like its missing a frame or something. How can I stop it doing this when converting the framerate?

[Gazorgan]

Bitrate: 3000kbits/sec

What do you expect? For Full D1? (Has to be, you can't have 16:9 in anything but full D1).

Leave it 23.97 if the source is.

[5t3v3]

Bitrate: 3000kbits/sec

What do you expect? For Full D1? (Has to be, you can't have 16:9 in anything but full D1).

Leave it 23.97 if the source is.

What is Full D1? And what was that about not being able to have 16:9 in anything but D1?

I have tried leaving it at 23.976, but that probably resulted in the worse playback of all the framerates I tried.

[5t3v3]

Managed to sort out the problem I was having with jerky video.

For anyone who is interested, I converted the source files to 25fps using VirtualDub, and then used TMPGEnc to encode to DVD MPEG2 using the DVD(PAL) template, and the video plays back smooth with no jerks at all.

I had to extract the audio from the orignal files and transcode them to 25fps, so it was a bit of extra work, but didnt take too long after all.

I then used FFMpegGUI to encode the audio as AC3 then, authored the DVD with TMPGEnc DVD Author.

[ada.k]

I too have just converted a XVID with jerky problems. I used DVD2SVCD and converted to PAL that way. The problem went away and the movie is totally smooth. At last an answer to the XVID 23.976 problems

[Pudster420]

O.K. i'm seriously fed up with this issue. It has just started happening recently and i've even tested on two separate computers...i have no idea what the problem is, since i have tried every codec separately to try to resolve it. Every xvid encoded movie that i have --excluding tv shows and pal sources, which preview and re-encode perfectly at 23.976, 3/2 pulldown-- all preview in tmpgenc plus, or tmpgenc xpress choppy every 8-9 seconds, and if i rip a chunk of the movie in vdub, the choppiness is still there, but in a different spot. This makes absolutely no sense to me, especially since i have never had this problem before. The weird thing is that it worked completely fine a few weeks ago before i reloaded windows, then after the reload, this problem arose. Somehow i managed to fix it temporarily by messing with the codecs for a while by uninstalling all codecs (which was only ffdshow and xvid) and reinstalling just ffdshow. Then i had to reload windows again because i got a new 80gb sata hd...and of course after that, this gayness started again which is where i stand at this very moment. I have done nothing different, using the same codecs, same encoder (tmpgenc plus or tmpgenc xpress) I know for a fact that its not my encoder settings or a windows/computer issue since i have been doing this for over 2 years now overcoming all issues EXCEPT THIS DIRTY SOB!....i'll start with the generic info.......

SOURCE:
xvid 700mb
23.976
mp3 audio 153 kb/s (2 channel)
runtime 1:36:49
res. 576x240

VDUB shows the same as above

btw, im testing by using the tmpgenc preview under File---i've also encoded small and large chunks of multiple movies all with the same choppy results every 8-9 seconds. And another btw, the originals all play flawlessly in any player (vlc, wmp, mpc etc..) so its something to do with the area between codecs and encoding in my opinion

SO......during this rant, i was messing around with some shit and seem to have stumbled onto something that may be the issue...i went in (just for kicks) to the environmental settings and unchecked everything except the DirectShow Multimedia File Reader....and the choppy playback is still there....then i checked off everything except the Directshow file reader, AND IT PREVIEWS WITHOUT THE CHOPPINESS (it sort of seems that it may be ever so slightly not smooth when i watch panning shots, but its barely noticable to my trained eyes--so technically its not previewing 100% perfect, but i'd say 99%)...but of course now it says my movie is over 4 hours long, its a temporary fix for now.....but i sure hope one of you geniouses out there can tell me why the DirectShow Multimedia File Reader setting is causing this in all xvid movies (newer and old ones)

Hopefully i have enough info here to help you reach a solution....if not, ask and ye shall receive whatever other info i can provide!

Thanks greatly in advance.

[guns1inger]

I have commercial NTSC disks that are choppy on whip pans and fast movements. I think it is inherent in the pulldown playback process, as the player has to create the missing frames on the fly, and this is more difficult in fast motion.

[Abond]

When I have such a problems with XviD encoded avi with VBR mp3, first what I am doing is to demultiplex the video (silent avi) and decompress the audio (wav) in VDubMod answering "No" (or cancel) at the question to re-write audio headers.

[Pudster420]

..unfortunately 'Abond' that has nothing to do with this particular problem, wish it did, but it doesnt.

its even choppy with old xvid's that i re-encoded like a year ago with no problems at all on 3/2 pulldown and 23.976(29.97 internally)

I have no other programs or codecs that would be causing conflicts.....after a fresh ffr, i installed what is "needed" (vlc, mpc, dvd decrypter, gspot, dvdshrink, tmpgenc dvd author, tmpgenc plus, tmpgenc xpress, vdub, vdubmod, ffmpeggui, belight(besweet), besliced, windvd, ac3filter, ffdshow....and also on hand is --xvid codec, divx codec, 3ivx codec (latest versions of all, plus some older versions)

to me it seems like tmpgenc is all of a sudden having a problem using whichever codec to encode xvid's---and technically, every one of the codecs i have in my arsenal should work perfectly fine....but dont.

[guns1inger]

The easiest way to fix this ? Virtualdub (or avisynth if you are more adventurous). Load up your video, answer yes when it asks to rewrite headers (this will make no dofference to your outcome, virtualdub will act more predictably if you do). No frameserve from virtualdub to tmpgenc. Thsi removes any codec issues with tmpgenc as it will be recieving uncompressed frames from virtualdub, and no codec is required. If you want to create mpgs (as opposed to elementary streams), save the audio out as an uncompressed wav before fraeserving, then load this as the audio track in tmpgenc.

[ranrobertcanada]

To convert 23.976fps xvid to DVD follow this guide
https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=222898

USE AVISynth and Cinema Craft Encoder. I converted many xvid movies this way and it works always!

[dbsnwo]

I too have had these problems with 23.97FPS film, the issue seemed to be the encoders i was using didn`t pulldown to 29.97FPS very well, the finished video would stutter when there was camera movement or say a vehicle was moving.
I now encode to the same frame rate as source and use dgpulldown.exe to flag the video to 29.97FPS, this programme also let me convert 23.97-25FPS with no problems i now no longer get the jerky playback that i was experiencing.
Make sure when you do encode you dont have any programmes running in the background. If you have two hard drives encode on the h\d that doesn`t have your operating system on and check that your pc isn`t running too hot.
Of the encoders i`ve tested CCE with AVISynth as the frameserver gave the best results on quality and speed. If your lazy Diko is quite good but slow.

[Abond]

Uninstall 3ivx and see how it is going on. I have read somewhere for problems with it.

[Pudster420]

Fixed it........it was the lugnut

For some reason ffdshow was the issue, so i downloaded and installed ffdshow-20050216, and all is back to normal. So somehow the directshow rendering was causing the problem. Of course it would just have to sort itself out with something simple like that, even though the other version of ffdshow i was using worked perfectly fine in the past. Now i need to figure out why tmpgenc is spitting out movies that are like 2.5gb instead of 4gb.....i think its because of my bitrate settings maybe, lately i've been messing with it trying 7500 average, 9500 max, and 1500 min....the resulting files turn out perfect quality, but they're only 2.5gb or 3.xgb...can anyone suggest a good bitrate setting for a 1h 30min to 1h 45min movie? I guess this would be great if i was putting 2 movies on one dvdr, but thats not my style!

Thanks for the help.....i guess! even though none of your guys' suggestions were necessary.

[jimmalenko]

can anyone suggest a good bitrate setting for a 1h 30min to 1h 45min movie?

Use a bitrate calculator (https://www.videohelp.com/calc.htm) :


1 hr 30 min:




1 hr 45 min:

[Pudster420]

Geee thanks jimmalenko........(note the sarcasm)

Maybe i should clarify, i simply would like to know how the bitrates work exactly--for instance, if i were to lower the bitrate to 5000avg, 9500max, 2500min would the file size be larger or smaller than the same thing done at 7500avg, 9500max, 2500min?? I just dont feel like testing it myself.
The only reason i bring this up is that i recently did a movie which was an hour and a half long at 9500max, 2500min, 7500avg and it came out absolutely perfect...almost better than the source, no noise or macro whatsoever. Basically im just wondering if the settings i used were even what tmpgenc plus actually encoded it at..and if so, i do believe i've stumbled on to a great way of putting 2 movies on one dvdr since the movie came out at 2.7gb......technically, the movie should have been waaaay too big to fit on a dvdr at that bitrate. I should have had to shrink the damn thing, which is a technique that i have been trying recently---making roughly a 6gb m2v then author, then shrink with dvdshrink---the results have been very pleasing, but i dont think its really needed, since it doesnt make a huge noticable difference.
The problem now is that i cant even seem to make a file that large since the bitrate setting i've been using should definitely be making larger m2v files.

P.S. that particular bitrate calculator sucks anus imho, its never given me an accurate rate....unless you're doing cbr encoding, which is sooooo 3 years ago! hahaha
Personally i use this one http://dvd-hq.info/Calculator.html (i put in '0' for the audio, then add about 300 to 500 to the avg bitrate....so if it tells you 6000avg, 7600 max, 1600min.....i would use 6500avg, 8000 max(8000 if using tmpgenc plus--9300ish if you're using tmpgenc xpress), 2500 min.

[jimmalenko]

Geee thanks jimmalenko........(note the sarcasm)

Maybe i should clarify, i simply would like to know how the bitrates work exactly--for instance, if i were to lower the bitrate to 5000avg, 9500max, 2500min would the file size be larger or smaller than the same thing done at 7500avg, 9500max, 2500min?? I just dont feel like testing it myself.
The only reason i bring this up is that i recently did a movie which was an hour and a half long at 9500max, 2500min, 7500avg and it came out absolutely perfect...almost better than the source, no noise or macro whatsoever. Basically im just wondering if the settings i used were even what tmpgenc plus actually encoded it at..and if so, i do believe i've stumbled on to a great way of putting 2 movies on one dvdr since the movie came out at 2.7gb......technically, the movie should have been waaaay too big to fit on a dvdr at that bitrate. I should have had to shrink the damn thing, which is a technique that i have been trying recently---making roughly a 6gb m2v then author, then shrink with dvdshrink---the results have been very pleasing, but i dont think its really needed, since it doesnt make a huge noticable difference.
The problem now is that i cant even seem to make a file that large since the bitrate setting i've been using should definitely be making larger m2v files.

P.S. that particular bitrate calculator sucks anus imho, its never given me an accurate rate....unless you're doing cbr encoding, which is sooooo 3 years ago! hahaha
Personally i use this one http://dvd-hq.info/Calculator.html (i put in '0' for the audio, then add about 300 to 500 to the avg bitrate....so if it tells you 6000avg, 7600 max, 1600min.....i would use 6500avg, 8000 max(8000 if using tmpgenc plus--9300ish if you're using tmpgenc xpress), 2500 min.

Well, you've just shown that you know absolutely nothing about what you're talking about

It stands that:

S = (T * B)/8192, where

S is the size in MB
T is the time is seconds
B is the combined video and audio bitrates

so therefore the larger the bitrate, the larger the filesize.

[Pudster420]

Geee thanks jimmalenko........(note the sarcasm)

Maybe i should clarify, i simply would like to know how the bitrates work exactly--for instance, if i were to lower the bitrate to 5000avg, 9500max, 2500min would the file size be larger or smaller than the same thing done at 7500avg, 9500max, 2500min?? I just dont feel like testing it myself.
The only reason i bring this up is that i recently did a movie which was an hour and a half long at 9500max, 2500min, 7500avg and it came out absolutely perfect...almost better than the source, no noise or macro whatsoever. Basically im just wondering if the settings i used were even what tmpgenc plus actually encoded it at..and if so, i do believe i've stumbled on to a great way of putting 2 movies on one dvdr since the movie came out at 2.7gb......technically, the movie should have been waaaay too big to fit on a dvdr at that bitrate. I should have had to shrink the damn thing, which is a technique that i have been trying recently---making roughly a 6gb m2v then author, then shrink with dvdshrink---the results have been very pleasing, but i dont think its really needed, since it doesnt make a huge noticable difference.
The problem now is that i cant even seem to make a file that large since the bitrate setting i've been using should definitely be making larger m2v files.

P.S. that particular bitrate calculator sucks anus imho, its never given me an accurate rate....unless you're doing cbr encoding, which is sooooo 3 years ago! hahaha
Personally i use this one http://dvd-hq.info/Calculator.html (i put in '0' for the audio, then add about 300 to 500 to the avg bitrate....so if it tells you 6000avg, 7600 max, 1600min.....i would use 6500avg, 8000 max(8000 if using tmpgenc plus--9300ish if you're using tmpgenc xpress), 2500 min.

Well, you've just shown that you know absolutely nothing about what you're talking about

It stands that:

S = (T * B)/8192, where

S is the size in MB
T is the time is seconds
B is the combined video and audio bitrates

so therefore the larger the bitrate, the larger the filesize.

Well, you've just shown that you have limited comprehension of the english language...

dude, i clearly stated that the higher i put the bitrate-the smaller the file i get, yet the quality is perfect. bitrate calculators tell me the following...
lets say 1h 30min movie with 224kb/s ac3 audio

calc says --avg 6350
--min 2500
--max 7500

what i did was --avg 7500
--min 2500
--max 8000

and the resulting m2v is 2.7gb (perfect quality)......obviously im not stupid enough to think that the higher the bitrate, the smaller the file-size.
I'd just like to know why this is happening? in my opinion this would be a good thing....i dont need to delve into the details of 'Einstein's theory of bitrate calculations' .....i just wanna know why my aforementioned settings produce such a small output filesize.

Better yet, give me the settings in tmpgenc plus that you would use for a movie that is 1h30mins (700mb)dvdrip, xvid, 23.976, 224kb/s audio and i'll encode it. Then i'll do it my way and compare it.

[jimmalenko]

dude, i clearly stated that the higher i put the bitrate-the smaller the file i get, yet the quality is perfect. bitrate calculators tell me the following...
lets say 1h 30min movie with 224kb/s ac3 audio

calc says --avg 6350
--min 2500
--max 7500

what i did was --avg 7500
--min 2500
--max 8000

and the resulting m2v is 2.7gb (perfect quality)......obviously im not stupid enough to think that the higher the bitrate, the smaller the file-size.
I'd just like to know why this is happening? in my opinion this would be a good thing....i dont need to delve into the details of 'Einstein's theory of bitrate calculations' .....i just wanna know why my aforementioned settings produce such a small output filesize.

Better yet, give me the settings in tmpgenc plus that you would use for a movie that is 1h30mins (700mb)dvdrip, xvid, 23.976, 224kb/s audio and i'll encode it. Then i'll do it my way and compare it.

You using 2-Pass VBR, or CQ mode ?

I'd use the following settings:


... so min 2000, avg 6500, max 9000 2-Pass VBR.

and according to

S = (T * B)/8192, where

S is the size in MB
T is the time is seconds
B is the combined video and audio bitrates

you should get a file that is very, very close to 4284MB.

[Pudster420]

"You using 2-Pass VBR, or CQ mode ?"

im using 2-pass...and i encoded the movie at 6500avg, 8000max, 2500min....the movie was 1h45mins long. I used tmpgenc plus and the resulting file is 3.27gb...it was also a pal source.

[Pudster420]

Hey guys...just wondering if there's any particular reason that tmpgenc dvd author is shrinking my m2v+ac3 movies sometimes. The odd movie that i re-encode comes out around 5GB, and after authoring it'll come out around 3.5GB, but only sometimes. Other times they come out the proper size (same as input filesize). So i guess im wondering if im doing something wrong or what?

Thanks in advance

[monzie]

Just out of interest...

a) have you tried FRAMESERVING the xvids's to TMPG with AVISYNTH via FITCD (and viewing the .avs file BEFORE encoding to ensure no 'jerkiness')?

b) have you tried encoding as a VIDEO ES file at 23.97 and when done run the .m2v through PULLDOWN.EXE instead of using TMPG's internal pulldown or hard enode 29.97?

c) have you read my OPTIMAL BITRATE FOR AVI'S (XVIDS/DIVX) guide?
https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=255103 to calc bitrates....dont just GUESS or use a 'bitrate calc' as these methods WILL NOT HELP on finding OPTIMAL bitrates for divx/xvids.....and remember too high is as bad as too low...(or at the best a TOTAL waste of space).

d) SOME 'jerkiness' is inherent in the original avi's BY DEFAULT but the 'media player' smooths out the 'jerks'..this can easily be seen in the excellent ZOOMPLAYER when watching an avi (press the 'I' key when viewing an avi in Zoomplayer and watch the framerate alter slightly accordingly up AND down to achieve a smooth playback from the original sources 23.97 framerate).

3000kbs is LOW for CBR (fine for vbr) I usually go vbr rate X 1.5 for CBR (so 3000 would be 4500 if encoding CBR..or 2500 would equal 3750)...if you want single pass with low bitrate and hi quality go OPV (CCE).

By encoding at PAL 25fps (or NTSC 29.97) you are 'UPPING' the framerate very slightly but possibly enough to 'fool' your brain into believing that the playback is 'smooth'.....(after all, ALL video no matter what the source, are nothing more than 'illusions' of still frames appearing to be fluid motion..but our brains DO NOT detect ALL the 'jerky' frames only the odd one due to the amount of data being processed from our eyes...).

AS for TDA giving the wrong size (or losing data/compressing data 'somewhere') YES it happens to me too......mpv's or m2v's plus audio (ac3 or mp2) SOMETIMES results in SMALLER file sizes than the source material input, but not always........WHY?.....I havent a clue....

[Pudster420]

Thanks for the reply Monzie.
a) no i've never tried the whole frameserving thing...but i dont really need to since i figured out the jerky playback was due to a shite version of FFDSHOW...all is in order on the jerky playback issue. But thanks anyways.

b) yes i've done the pulldown.exe thing before, but i dont need it now that everything is working as it should be with tmpgenc plus.

c) i started reading it....then it turned into a total fagfest, so i stopped! I think i'll just stick to the way i've been doing things since the quality i produce has always been stellar even if the output size fluctuates. In my opinion, its all about your source video's quality...and since i dont deal with crap quality sources, i dont have any problems with output quality. I also dont think vcd and svcd are worth my time and effort since i have no problems affording dvdr's and i can easily fit 8 or 10, 40min episodes of a tv show on one disk or entire seasons of sitcoms (15-20 eps) while keeping the dvd specs. I usually use a calc just to get a rough idea of what bitrate to use, and as a rule of thumb, i like the rate to be 3 or 4 times the source bitrate when possible. BUT, if i do start to run into bitrate problems i'll certainly give your method a try as it does make sense....kinda! to be honest though, the less tools and calculations needed the better imho.

Thanks for the info Monzie.

P.S. also, is it just me, or is the 1/2 dar method as retarded looking to anyone else as it is to me? i even saw one dude post that some dvd's are in 1/2 dar, but i've never seen one, and if i did, i'd be sure to take it back after swiping it through my ass-crack a few times! and im only basing this opinion on previews i've done with tmpgenc plus.....anyways, thats enough ranting for one day!