Pioneer DVR220 and recorders in general lifespan

[Razortceps]

I know this question deserves an "it all depends on things and luck" kind of answer, but if you were to make an estimate what would your guess.

I have a DVR-220 recorder, but I guess this question could apply to any recorder. How long do you think a typical DVD recorder will last. In otherword how many discs do you think you could record before the laser, a mechanical part, etc breaks down and you no longer have a functional recorder?

I know this probably wont matter, but I only record DVD-R's on the SP speed on Video Mode and not VR mode.

So if you were to take a guess or if you know of some studies that have been done, how many disc do you think this baby will shoot out before she goes to DVD recorder heaven?

I ask this question, because I plan to record a lotttttt of stuff and have already bought 250 discs and plan on buying another 250 more. They are 4x and work fine with the recorder I have, but I dont want to be stuck with them if I get a new recorder in the future. I mean it might not turn out to be a bad thing if I do, but it could because some recorders are picky on the brand name discs they accept. I have experienced such probelms, but I heard a lot of people writting about them and I dont want to fall on that list.I know right now your saying,just be safe and stick with the 250 you have, but Im telling you Im getting such a great deal on them that I can resist.

So with all aside, how many discs do you think this puppy will spit out and do you think Id be able to extend the life of the recorder if I watched DVD's on a player that I have downstairs instead of playing them on my Recorder? Thanks a lot. Im very interested and what you guys have to say.

Tim

[trhouse]

The mtbf ( mean time between failure ) of the drive itself is about 30,000 to 70,000 POH ( power on hours ). 30,000 hours is about 3.5 years if left on continuously. Some manufacturers state this is 20% duty cycle. The chances are pretty good it will be obselete before it fails. Have you noticed what the availability of X4 media is in most stores?

By comparison, the mtbf of hard drives is 300,000 to 1,000,000 hours. At work, we have a Toshiba notebook computer that has been on continuously for about five and a half years and it is still going.

[Razortceps]

Well I caculated it out. If I have 30,000 hours and make recordings of 2 hrs each, technically I should be able to produce 1500 discs before it dies. LOL I know Im a goonball, but its to take all of this into aspect and know what to expect in the future. Now question does that hours get counted into the 30,000 total if its on standby and the clock is on. Also do hours get counted in if I just watching a DVD and not recording. Im totally serious so please dont think Im trying to sound like a smart a s s, that is not my intentions.

By the way you stated the following:

"Some manufacturers state this is 20% duty cycle."

What does duty cycle mean?

Also you said this:

"Have you noticed what the availability of X4 media is in most stores?"

Yes I have noticed this, but using 8x discs shouldnt be a problem right. I mean 8x is compatiable with 4x drives, correct?

Okie Dokie, thank you very much once again.

Tim

[steve2713]

Razortceps, that would be 15,000 recordings, not 1,500 recordings, if you want to go by your theory.

[Razortceps]

Opps I divided by 3000, I dumb lol What do you think of this therory though Steve? Whats your opinion if you dont mind me asking?

[steve2713]

My theory? Your recorder will probably still be working when the time comes that you want to replace it with something better. I've got a 420, same as the 220 plus a HD, and I've already recorded about 300(!) discs on it. The burner inside your recorder would probably never last for 15,000 burns, 3000 or so might be more realistic. But by that time you'll probably have gotten more than your money's worth and you'll be looking to upgrade anyway.

[trhouse]

20% duty cycle means for example, that the recorder is left on for ten hours but only recording for two out of the ten hours.

I have a older recorder designed to handle X4 disks it says for "General Ver. 2.0/4x-speed dvd-r rev. 1.0" but it will burn most X8 disks. A newer recorder says for "General Ver. 2.x/8x-speed dvd-r rev. 3 ). I noticed that most stores now have more X16 media than X4.

P.S. At the rate prices are dropping, recorders will soon be as disposable as vcr's.

[junkmalle]

You have to be careful about MTBF numbers. You might think that means something like on average a device will last that many hours. But that's not the case. MTBF includes replacing devices after their "service lifetime" is up. That may mean after the 90 day warranty expires. I think infant mortality is excluded from the MTBF as it's considered a manufacturing defect not a device failure.

So if you replace your recorder every 90 days and don't suffer any infant deaths you might expect to go 30,000 hours before a failure!

But keep in mind that manufactures don't explain how they calculate MTBF and what constitutes a "failure". If you're lucky you might be able to compare MTBF numbers for two models from the same company. But comparisons between different companies' products is essentially meaningless. It's just a marketing tool.

[samijubal]

I didn't get anywhere near 30,000 hours out of my Panasonic E-20 before it started failing finalizing discs. A little over 2 1/2 years, less than 2000 discs I'm sure. I never used it as a player, only recorded.

[trhouse]

Here is a fair description of mtbf and the relationship to infant mortality.

http://www.bluemax.net/docs/Motherboards/General_Info/mtbf.html

It's hard to know the procedures used by the well known names in this industry. Most places I have worked have the 72 hour burn-in at elevated temperature, with temperature cycling to minimize infant mortality.

[Razortceps]

Thats a very interesting document TrHouse. Im going to read that again when I wake up so I can absorb it all. Thanks.

So heres my question then, how can I find out where information about MTBF is located?

Also would you say that I will be able to shoot out 1500 discs, before she dies, becauses thats what Im shooting for. I want to be able to brag about how much she saved me in the long run

[thor300]

Interesting thread. As Steve said, one would probably like to replace it before the time it breaks down, but untill then it should work without any flaws, no matter if its 1 or 5 years. This MTBF is a bit too theoretical (or should i say statistical) for me, i stick to Pioneer to reduce the risk of problems in the MTBBN (Mean Time Between Buying New)

[Razortceps]

Yea see I dont care if this one becemes obsoulete, I want to use her til she dies. Im the kind of guy that hates change and only does it when is is necessary. So yea with that aside and how Im going to keep it until it die...what would you say is the maximium about of disc Id get out of it and what would you say the average would be. Thanks.

[thor300]

Seems samijubal's post is the only real-life experience here, hard to say if thats more or less than the normal. "Less than 2000" still dont sound low to me, and at least you got the right brand so hopefully a lot more than 2000
If we assume that recorders are like burners then maybe many users here could give you a clue to what to expect from a Pioneer.

[steve2713]

Seems samijubal's post is the only real-life experience here, hard to say if thats more or less than the normal. "Less than 2000" still dont sound low to me, and at least you got the right brand so hopefully a lot more than 2000
If we assume that recorders are like burners then maybe many users here could give you a clue to what to expect from a Pioneer.

The Pioneer 220/420/520 use a modified version of the 107 burner from what I understand. It seems like I've read of plenty of people with similar burners lasting 1500+ burns, and certainly some have had them last 2000+ and still going. Two things that come to mind immediately in extending the life of your recorder for as long as you can:

1. Don't put it in a place where it can get too hot, such as an enclosed cabinet. Too much heat is never a good thing.

2. Don't use your recorder for playback if you've already got a DVD player to play the discs back on. It's just that much more wear on the mechanics of the drive and it'll be using the laser that much more as well. In this regard, recorders with a HD may have an advantage in that you can just record to the HD then do a quick burn to the disc, rather than burning to the disc throughout the entire length of the content you're recording.

[trhouse]

Only the manufacturer can supply mtbf data if it is not published in their data sheets. Here is the published mtbf for the Pioneer 107.

"MTBF: 60,000 Power On Hours, 200,000 tray load cycles"

Steve2712 hit the nail on the head. Heat is the number one destroyer of electronics. Most consumer electronics is designed to operate over a reduced temperature range of 5- 40 degrees C with less than 80% humidity. Industrial electronics is usually 0-50 degrees C. If I am not mistaken, it can get to 40 degrees C in Chicago in the summer without any problem. Mtbf does not apply for environmental conditions outside the specs.

Another problem is shipping. A few companies once shipped their products with a gauge inside to measure the G forces to which the shipments were subjected. Others had temperature indicating strips which turned various colors depending on how hot or cold the package got. They all affect reliability but are outside the manufacturer's control. Some manufacturers are concerned enough to try design packaging to minimize the damage.

[iluvJLO]

are all the 220's made in china? mine is
probably wouldn't last that long then.

[nickyboy4]

My 220 was made in Japan, when I bought it there were about 10 on the shelf, 9 were made in China. 8)

[BrainStorm69]

Mine was made in China also. But if (and I say if) they use the same components, it shouldn't make too much difference.

[Razortceps]

Really come on all this crap is made by the same asains, China or Japan...if its the same model recorder, there isnt going to be a difference. But if you really need to have that much piece of mind then dont buy chinese stuff. I know a bunch of people I talked to that have the chinese version and just like the people who have the japanese version, neither of them have had any problems even after some of them have burned 500+ discs with it. So yea dont let all this Chinese Japanese talk freak you out when it comes to talking about the same model of something that was made in two different areas. Comparing two different models of something and where htere are made may be another story though. Like I said if your really that spooked out because of all the talk, stay way of Chinese made stuff, or spend the extra couple of bucks and get a warranty. I just got my DVR-220 for $198.74 at Walmart and they offer a 3 year replacement plan for ONLY $16.83!!! Thats like a little over $5 bucks a year for 3 years to safeguard your investment. Granted, a lot of people might want to get a new player in 2 years from now when they have a bunch of different new technology out. But come on its only 16 bucks. And if your like me, Im going to push this baby til the max until it dies. With my Calculations, Ill have burned about 2000 discs by the time the warranty is up, so yea a warranty might be something to consider. Oh and stay away from best buy if your just getting a mid range recorder that you could buy at Walmart. Best Buy sells the exact same modeled recorder as Walmart, but they give it there own number as you probably already know DVR-225. It is the exact same price within a dollars span. However, Best Buy will try to suck you in for $49.99 for a warranty to go with it....and ON TOP OF THAT its only for 2 years. So yea go do the math.

[budz]

geez.....i didn't know walmart offered a 3 year warranty replacement on the Pioneer 220-S recorder....dang i better go ask about it huh.....that is a good deal for the warranty.....

[trhouse]

It shouldn't matter where it is made. The quality of the product is not determined by who assembled it. Quality is almost entirely dictated by whose name is on the product.

20 years ago there people who blamed the American worker for the poor quality of American cars. Then Honda and Toyota started making cars here with those same American workers and the quality was every bit as good as the ones made in Japan.

[Razortceps]

Yea well, see thats the thing they're sneaky like that. If you ask at the store 80% of the employees will say no we dont offer an extended warranty. For instance when I bought mine last week I asked the 3 guys at the electronics registered if I could buy an extended warranty and they were like sorry only Best Buy offers that. And I though in my head...no....no way....this is walmart they are top notch competetiors and if you tell me they dont offer warranties, then they will not be on top of there game and thats are unheard of cause all they do is try to gobble up everything and make people go out of business (I hate supporting them!!!) So I did a search online and found out that there was one. They call it there "Keep it New" plan. For DVD Recorders under $200 they offer the $16 one. For DVD recorders $200 and over, they offer the option of a $28 2 year warranty or $40 3 year warranty. Once again Best Buy charges $49.99 for a 2 year warranty no matter what the price of the recorder is. So if you get the $16 one from Walmart thats a $34 save plus an extra year warranted. If you get the $28 one thats still a $22 save. And if you get the $40 plan you get an extra year and still save $10. Sorry I had to show the numbers cause they are so unbelieveable. So yea if you bought your within 30 days, have the receipt, and it is under $200; then you can get the $16 warranty. The only thing is you have to buy it online! Which is no biggie, but usually when buying a warranty I like to buy it directly from a person rather than transfering the information of the receipt to their internet form and all the other hassle that goes with it.

Heres the link to all of there plans:

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/search-ng.gsp?search_constraint=0&search_query=Keep+It+...w&ics=20&ico=0

And heres the link to the $16 one if your is under $200 like mine, which it should be unless they just started this sale price that I got it for.

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.gsp?product_id=2349387

I had their specific phone # to there Keep it New Department, but I cant seem to find it. If you call Walmart though, they will surelly be able to give it to you if you want to inquire about more info. Hope this helped.

[budz]

Then Honda and Toyota started making cars here with those same American workers and the quality was every bit as good as the ones made in Japan.

i beg to differ on that comment. cars made in japan have better quality control than ones built in america. of course that is just my 2 cents. most of the cars are assembled partly in japan and the rest is done in the usa. lexus no longer builds their SUV in japan. honda builds their accords and crv in japan the last i heard. the civic line is built in america.

ok back to the topic. i do hope the lifespan of the 220-S will be a long one. most electronics manufacturers have their products built in china or singapore because labor is dirt cheap. i haven't seen a made in japan dvd recorder yet. if there is one please point it out to me.

[trhouse]

I didn't realize it remains so controversial a subject. There is room for disagreement as evidenced by this thread.

http://www.stormloader.com/yonghuang/car/usjpmade.txt

Back to longevity of recorders. Recorders will not have the same mtbf as the burners inside them. The burner might be off but the recorder is in "standby" which means the power supply, displays, and other internal electronics are on as long as it is plugged in. When samijubal said he didn't get anywhere near 30,000 hours on his unit; if it was plugged in for 2.5 years, some parts of that unit had 21,900 hours on them.

[thor300]

Made in Japan is not that much of a quality assurance. My Pioneer player is made in China and has performed well for almost 5 years now.
Harman Kardon was much better the time it was being made in USA, when moved to Japan the car amps had considerable more need of service. The top 4x4 models of Nissan cars are made in Philippines and are possible even better than Japanese Nissan, while Toyotas made in Philippines are considered "disposable", so it all depends on the quality control, not production country. China make a lot of crap quality, but Japan isnt much better in some cases. Quality Products are good no matter where they are made, i trust Pioneers quality control of the Chinese assemply lines.

Edit: Forgot to mention my experience with Honda, since someone linked to this about US vs Japan Honda. I still have a Philippine made Honda TMX motorcycle that made me totally lose confidence in Honda quality, its very obvious that Honda gives a damn about quality control of their overseas production plants. This bike isnt even road worthy after western europe standards. In comparision i had a Chinese made Yamaha before, now have a Japan made Yamaha, my wife has a Indonesia made Yamaha, all 3 of very high quality. Yamaha cares about their reputation, Honda doesnt. And we know Pioneer really care about their reputation. Owws, very long edit

[handyguy]

If kept on power saving mode, they can last a long time.

Also, put on a surge protector.

[donpedro]

It shouldn't matter where it is made. The quality of the product is not determined by who assembled it. Quality is almost entirely dictated by whose name is on the product.

20 years ago there people who blamed the American worker for the poor quality of American cars. Then Honda and Toyota started making cars here with those same American workers and the quality was every bit as good as the ones made in Japan.

It is all about quality managment and not "hands"

[Razortceps]

It shouldn't matter where it is made. The quality of the product is not determined by who assembled it. Quality is almost entirely dictated by whose name is on the product.

20 years ago there people who blamed the American worker for the poor quality of American cars. Then Honda and Toyota started making cars here with those same American workers and the quality was every bit as good as the ones made in Japan.

It is all about quality managment and not "hands"

Well put Don!

[thor300]

donpedro sait it. Reminds me of Don Pedro brandy , quite good quality but is being made also outside Spain with a considerable more raw/too spicy taste, bad quality management.