For analog8mm, use Dig8 cam DV io or S-video w/ATI

[dog_mutton]

Please help, I hope this is the right forum... It is a cross between capture card and DV cam, maybe more, I hope I don't ask too much at once but it's all so intertwined... I've done alot of homework and test runs, still couldn't get comfortable I had the best solution... moderator, please feel free to place this in the approriate forum.

I am trying to get both 1. archival-quality digital representations of my original source analog (video8) tapes (image being comfortable with tossing the 8mm tapes into the bonfire later... ) - these I would like to save as 10min to 1hr clips (can they be MPEGs?) or DV-AVI's or whatever on backup data DVD disks - and 2. transfer to authored DVDs for set-top viewing.

the main question is on the archiving: Would the Dig8 cam's DV encode truly represent the source best ? or can a eg. Hauppage or ATI card do better with the S-video ? Assume the only editing needed is removal of scan noise at bottom - it keeps showing up at TV w/DV xfer so far (help me with a fast lossless trick on that one and you're "the guru"!)

I guess a closely related question is, whichever way, would it be best to save the 1. DV-AVI or 2. other format (MPEG?) files on data DVDs (like the 13GB/hr for DV-AVI or ~3.6 GB/hr for 8000cbrMPEG2)? - they'd become the new source - I find DV-AVI's do compress a little with zip. I have 12 2hr video8 tapes... I'd like to use MPEG if possible, maybe enode on the fly? - the "transcode?" to mpeg ones I tried so far with Ulead did look a little worse than the DV even at 8000cbr, but did later "compliantly" xfer to the DVD image.

So the current plan is: Video8 tape in Dig8 cam -> DV-AVI type2 -> DVD data disk. Can anyone offer a better alternative than DV in terms of quality yet speed and memory usage and ease of use for Video8 digitized archive (with room to possibly edit) but mostly straight cutting and authoring.

Thanks for any help... dogmutt.

[Richard_G]

I'm slowly doing the same thing, transferring old 8mm an Hi-8 tapes to DVD disk. The purists will tell you that an analogue capture using a lossless codec like Huffyuv would give you the best quality. But, as the quality of 8mm wasn't that good in the first place, playing back in a Digital 8 camcorder and transferring over Firewire as DV .avi shouldn't show any noticable quality loss.

For storage, you could encode to DVD compliant high bitrate mpeg but that won't be anything like as convenient if you ever want to edit any of the footage. Leave the files as DV .avi and burn as data DVD. You will then be able to put them back on your hard drive when you want to edit out the dodgy bits (because we all shoot dodgy bits when waving a camcorder around) and encode/author into DVDs to play back in your set-top player. Your other possiblity would be to archive back to Digital 8 tape but I suspect that isn't an option or you would leave them on 8mm tape in the first place.

[dog_mutton]

Thanks for the reply Richard_G. I encoded to half-D1 to the DVD and it looks great on the set top box, can hardly believe how clear it is! I am starting to think that the DVD compliant encoded MPEGS at 352x480 are good enough for archiving now from the 8mm tapes. And sure enough on settop DVD player the noise is not seen in the overscan. The encode is slow from DV, so maybe a good transcode from DV in real time would save me alot of time and space and then more like 1-2 hrs can fit on a DVD. The other alternative of using S-video connection would probably also give similar quality... I guess it's what you have and your budget that dictates the approach here - soon I have to give back the borrowed D8 cam. Beginning to think most peoples problems might be not digging into all the little settings like "lower field first" rather than frame-based and not sticking with the interlacing all the way thru (for TV viewing later). Also, the 352x480 can use twice the bitrate of the 720x480 and so better quality when resolution not needed - I think I forgot to change it after working at 720x480 and left it at 8MB/sec, maybe that's why it's so clear? - a few final experiments and I will know if the 352x480 mpegs/vobs are all I need to keep - I figure I need about 300GB storage to do it in DV-AVI - maybe two 160GB HDD I just put away when done - doubt I'll do that but might...

Best Rgds, dogmutt.

[Richard_G]

I normally run at 7500 or 8000 kbs bitrate in full D1, which is 720 x 576 for me as I'm in PAL land. At half-D1, I drop down to 3500 or 4000 kbs. That allows me to fit just over 3 hours on a DVD-R with quality that, as you have found, cannot be distinguished from the original 8mm tapes.

I went through the steep learning curve of analogue capture before I bought the D8 cam. It's just not worth the hassle!

[dog_mutton]

I could learn from your experience. I was looking at the DCRTRV460 Sony model that is current top Sony model in stores here for D8. Do you know of any good others? (The 260 I don't think handles 8mm or pass-thru). Also I saw some older models like the one I borrowed which is a DCRTVR730. It seems even better than the 460 now I think!

Athough at some point I want a TV Wonder, Hauppage or something like that and I could try S-video just for kicks. - shoot, my monitor just "popped" (I think it's on the way out!) anyway, I even thought about a DVD recorder (w/ or w/o DV Firewire) but will opt for the PCI card to captue TV and HD later. I actually wondered if the All-in-one's being integrated and in AGP slot increases performance and would make it worth buying the additional "video card" portion after just having essentially bought a new video card? I wonder if anyone knows? But that's another topic? - I don't want to get booted of of here so fast!

I still think I'd be happy with a half-D1 capture right off the tape thru DV, is it good to do that? (I hope I am not treading into DV territory to far here! ) I can't seem to because I can only get ULEADVS8 to transfer it or mpeg it full 720x480 DV. That VS8 has really been getting to me with graying out of so many options and audio deficiencies like no ac3 . Maybe half-D1 captue doesn't make sense for the DV? - Do you know how it would reduce it to 352x480 on the fly, would that be quality? I guess I could enccode directly to MPEG2 at the 720 and reduce it later? I guess I don't need to edit now much since the overscan noise wasn't on the set-top - I'm thinking of going with Windows Media for PC stuff, maybe de-iterlace it and edit it for the PC that way?

Gotta Run!!! Thanks again,
-dogmutt

[Quantum]

Athough at some point I want a TV Wonder, Hauppage or something like that and I could try S-video just for kicks. - -dogmutt

The Sony TRV460 you mentioned does S-video pass-thru too.

[edDV]

All this comes down to ... how important are the original tapes?

I put unique historical family tapes and films at the top of the list. There may be interest in these over generations. Assuming this is what you mean by "archive" then the first rule is never ever toss the originals be they tape or film. Store them in a cool dry place. Future tools will do a much better job than anything available today if you can preserve the originals (think the fictional CSI extraction methods).

But storage isn't enough, these tapes and films are degrading so they need to be backed up with today's technology just in case of loss and for current use. You can also prepare these backups for near future use by taking into account the days of 525/60 NTSC and 625/50 PAL are near their end (in geneology terms) and anything you do today should be pointed at the HDTV standards that will rule for the next 20 years.

For this reason and factoring by ease of use, I think a transfer of 8mm film and 8mm, VHS, Hi8, S-VHS tape to the DV format is best for the following reasons.

- DV is a superset, higher quality standard over the current MPeg2 DVD.
- DV unlike most MPeg2 carries frame by frame temporal data.
- DV transfer is easy to do with rental equipment or service bureaus.
- DV is compatible with current and future DVD technology.
- DV is compatible with US DTV technology and interfaces well into the set top box world
- DV is compatible with future H.264 and MPeg4 technologies that can scale from cellphone to 1080p HDTV resolutions.

As for storage media, I like DV tape as an intemediate standard until high density DVD (Blu-Ray DVD, HD-DVD or other) becomes established. Then the DV tapes can be copied to high density DVD for long term storage.

Alternative storage methods for DV include hard disks or current DVDR media in 20 min chunks.

[Richard_G]

I was looking at the DCRTRV460 Sony model that is current top Sony model in stores here for D8. Do you know of any good others? (The 260 I don't think handles 8mm or pass-thru). Also I saw some older models like the one I borrowed which is a DCRTVR730. It seems even better than the 460 now I think!

I nearly bought a TRV630 but didn't for various reasons. I was more interested in the manual override for focus, exposure, etc and wasn't even aware of passthrough at the time (although I did know about DV in). I ended up getting a TR8000. This was really cheap because it was a discontinued model and did everything the 630 did. The only thing missing was the LCD screen which I had no use for anyway so, for me, was actually a bonus. The DCR-TRV350 seems to be quite popular with people here and looks like it will do everything you want of it.

The situation in the UK is slightly different as the import duty on a video recorder is much higher than on a camcorder. Consequently, Sony models for the UK (which have an e suffix to the model number) don't have DV or analogue in (because that makes them a video recorder) until you reach the upper end of the range. Most people who buy a cheap, low end camcorder would never use these facilities so won't miss them not being there.

I used a separate capture card until I bought my first AIW. I know a lot of people have had trouble getting an AIW to work, but they should have been around in the days of having to manually configure IRQ settings and memory addresses to stop a capture card from conflicting with something else. Both my previous and current AIW simply work. Unless you are heavily into gaming, the video performance is pretty good too. I still use the AIW to capture analogue off air TV from a digital TV receiver. Capture as half-D1 mpeg, author and burn to DVD-RW as an alternative to a VCR. Otherwise, everything else is done over Firewire through the camcorder as a passthrough.

You cannot 'capture' over Firewire in anything other than DV .avi at full resolution because you aren't capturing at all. The electronics in the cam, be it MiniDV or D8, convert the incoming video signal into a data stream. This data stream is then recorded to tape or output to the Firewire port. All you are doing is copying that data stream to your hard drive. That is why VS8 greys out the options to set anything other than 720 x 480. I understand there are some encoders which will encode the incoming data stream to mpeg before storing it on your hard drive, but you'd need a fairly powerful system to allow this.

Hope this helps.

[edDV]

[quote="Richard_G"]

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You cannot 'capture' over Firewire in anything other than DV .avi at full resolution because you aren't capturing at all. The electronics in the cam, be it MiniDV or D8, convert the incoming video signal into a data stream. This data stream is then recorded to tape or output to the Firewire port. All you are doing is copying that data stream to your hard drive. That is why VS8 greys out the options to set anything other than 720 x 480. I understand there are some encoders which will encode the incoming data stream to mpeg before storing it on your hard drive, but you'd need a fairly powerful system to allow this.

Hope this helps.

Actually you can with ULead Video Studio 8 unless the "e" version blocks this too.

I "capture" from a DV stream directly to DVD MPeg2 8000Kbps/LPCM with VS8's Mainconcept encoder as described in this thread with a 2.4GHz Celeron.
https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=253829&highlight=

[Richard_G]

Actually you can with ULead Video Studio 8 unless the "e" version blocks this too.

I "capture" from a DV stream directly to DVD MPeg2 8000Kbps/LPCM with VS8's Mainconcept encoder as described in this thread with a 2.4GHz Celeron.
https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=253829&highlight=

The "e" version camcorder doesn't have any effect on the Firewire output, all they do is disable the DV and analogue inputs. These can then be re-enabled using a number of methods. I use a Datavideo Widget.

Looking at the other thread, I notice that your method will only encode full frame, 8000kbs with LPCM audio but can't manage a higher compression (lower bitrate) in real time. As dog_muttons original intention was to go straight to half-D1, I assume it wouldn't be able to do this. As the audio then has to be encoded separately anyway, it all seems a bit pointless to me. Simple transfer to full frame avi and then a single encode to DVD compliant mpeg, either full or half-D1 with whatever standard audio is desired. Far more control and much less likely to drop frames or lose video/audio sync if the encode can take as long as it takes rather than having to be done in real time.

[dog_mutton]

Hey, thanks for all your feedback folks! It's true my thought was a high bitrate on the fly encode direct to half-D1 and that the VS8 only does it full so far as I can find. Going to full and then down to half, dunno the result, scared of that one . These are family tapes (of course I won't toss them, I mean they're only worth... TEN MILLION DOLLARS! )

Looks like I'm out to buy a pair of 160Gig SATAs or something unless I can manage a super high quality half-D1 compliant encode... so far the DV avi is looking good - just big.

Maybe some hardware/encoder that has a FW input is what I was looking for, I wonder if the cards with FW input can do it? In my reading I noticed that the FW input on the capture card was a bit of a misnomer and basically agreed so I did get just a FW card for now, but maybe the DV in on the capture card has it's place where (maybe here?) the DVAVI may not be needed - I did just think of just doing the compliant direct xfer to DVD no reencodes... - maybe especially if continuing to carefully store the original 8mm tapes? Still only in the worst case, or in the, I think, I prefer "La Femme Nikita" future - (anyone into that? - what was his name... Burkov? - I'll get him to decode it and enhance it as true HD source!) do I really envision having to ever go back to AVIs after this high quality half-D1 encode I dream of... For gosh sake it would seem it ought to be enough - while some of the tapes are the better metal kind or Hi8, many are just Video8 and the original camera was from I think the first 2 or 3 years you could even GET a "camcorder" - talk about VHS quality!

Anyway - it looks like DV for now and a new HD.

Much Appreciated, signing off, over and out. -dm