Films otherwise unavailable.

[AlecWest]

Recently, this came up in a PM to someone and it got me to thinking about something. Under trademark law, if an owner does not make use of a trademark after a certain period of time, they lose protection and ownership reverts to the public domain. The one precedent-setting case on this issue involved CBS's ownership of the "Amos & Andy" trademark. I've always thought that bit of trademark law would do well if it was made part of copyright law as well.

It bugs me to no end when I hear of great films that have never made it into the home video realm (or were released, then yanked ... or put under some kind of "moratorium"). I know a number of films I'd love to buy on home video ... if only I could. Example:

http://imdb.com/title/tt0053750/combined

I'd like to hear from others about films they'd like to acquire that are "otherwise unavailable" in home video ... and some of the methods you've used to acquire them.

P.S. Another example is "The Godfather Epic" version. First came "The Godfather," a straightforward film that encompassed a limited timeframe. Then came "The Godfather Part II," a good but disjointed film ... disjointed because it jumps from flashback scenes prior to "The Godfather's" timeframe to scenes following its timeframe. Then came "The Godfather Epic" release on VHS in 1982. This release was a retelling of both films in strict chronological order ... and included scenes that ended up on the cutting room floor for both films. But shortly after its release, the studio got greedy and released the marginal "The Godfather Part III" ... and yanked the "Epic version" off shelves. This version never made it to DVD ... and the few rental stores who still have the old 1982 VHS Epic version only have grainy and deteriorated copies.

That's very sad ... especially since the Epic version's inclusion of previously cut scenes added depth to the saga. Example. The Epic version includes a cut scene showing a young Vito Corleone meeting a young enterprising Jewish man who he "adopts" into his family. His name? Hyman Roth. In the "Godfather Part II" (DVD release), the only thing you know about Hyman Roth is that he once did business with Vito Corleone ... making Michael's killing of Roth a mere matter of business. But had that one scene made it to Part II, viewers would have seen Roth's betrayal of the Corleone family as not just a business matter ... but as an "infamnia" ... an "in-the-family" betrayal that transcended business.

[northcat_8]

I wonder what Adam has to say about this....

[housepig]

that suggestion has come up from Lawrence Lessig as well - make the initial term of copyright something like the original 14 year term, or 28 years, but set it up so that you need to pay a $1 maintenence fee every 14 years after that to renew it - anything that's over 28 years and no renewal fee becomes public domain.

that way, anything that is still making money for the original creator (or their assignees) stays protected, and anything else goes into the public domain - and there's an easily-searchable database and contact info for copyrighted materials (which doesn't exist now).

take a look at Lessig's book Free Culture, downloadable for free via that link.

but until then, the stuff is still verboten as far as this forum is concerned.

[Forum Troll]

When I want a film that's not on DVD, I usually hunt down the laserdisc, or search TV listings for it. For example, a movie I've wanted for years, "ABBA: The Movie" is being shown in its OAR of 2.35:1 on TCM on December 31. This movie has been out of print for years, and never in its OAR. So until the studio releases it, this is the only source.

On a side note, archive.org has hundreds of older public domain feature films available for free download at their site. "Night of the Living Dead" is even there. What is most amazing is they are available in MPEG-2, all ready for authoring to DVD. You might check there and see if some of what you are looking is for there.

http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=mediatype%3Amovies%20AND%20collection%3Afeature_films

[Rookie64]

On a side note, archive.org has hundreds of older public domain feature films available for free download at their site. "Night of the Living Dead" is even there. What is most amazing is they are available in MPEG-2, all ready for authoring to DVD.

Most amazing is that despite Night of the Living Dead being in the public domain...it still sells and rents as well as the latest big budget releases.


I've rented a couple different versions of it this year plus bought another 2 versions of it this year on DVD...'cause even though the movie can be downloaded for free (which would take like a year for me to do on dialup)
the DVDs include director and original cast audio commentary and a very cool-looking computerized color version (not one of those sad Ted Turner coloring book jobs) and remastered highest quality.


In other words, copying and distributing (even for free) doesn't affect how a film sells - you can still sell it and make even more than it sold originally by releasing it with cool extras, better quality and cool packaging.

[vitualis]

Trademarks expire (and quickly) and you need to keep paying to keep the trademark.

Copyrights are interesting. They were initially introduced to protect the consumer, difficult to believe now as it is. The key to the copyright is that they expire as well. Prior to copyrights, large publishing guilds would "buy the rights/manuscripts" to books/music/etc. and then store it away. Of course, they made money initially but then, since they "owned" it ad infinitum, the valuable knowledge/art in these works would become lost when they no longer became profitable to print as nobody else could release/distribute it.

The whole point of copyright laws was to counterbalance... so that the content makers/owners could make money while it was new but then it would by law go into the public domain so that the works would never languish unknown in the back of some storage house. If not for copyright laws, we may well be ignorant of the classical works of pre-20th Century writers and not to mention the great music works of the classical composers (except for the few art historians who research this field).

Copyrights are now going the other way again with expirations dates stretching further and further into the future. This is bad. If this continues, by 2050, all that would be left of the works of the great musicians of the 1950s and 1960s may simply be the demented memories of a few centurians still alive.

Regards.

[Faustus]

Yeah like Disney will NEVER release Song of the south. I think it got a VHS release overseas once and thats it. Reguardless of their reasons why are they allowed to just sit on this for eternity?

The same danger existed with Black coldren, thanksfully the light was finally seen on that one.

Extended version of dune is aired on TV every few years, good luck buying a copy.

and DAMNIT I want my cop rock dvds!!! (ok so maybe not)

[Conquest10]

Example. The Epic version includes a cut scene showing a young Vito Corleone meeting a young enterprising Jewish man who he "adopts" into his family. His name? Hyman Roth. In the "Godfather Part II" (DVD release), the only thing you know about Hyman Roth is that he once did business with Vito Corleone ... making Michael's killing of Roth a mere matter of business. But had that one scene made it to Part II, viewers would have seen Roth's betrayal of the Corleone family as not just a business matter ... but as an "infamnia" ... an "in-the-family" betrayal that transcended business.

If I'm not mistaken, that scene is on the Godfather DVD collection. I hear what you are saying though. Judging by this board, most people don't view the extras.

[Conquest10]

While on the subject, what ever happened with Steamboat Willie public domain thing? I heard Disney wanted to prevent it from ever doing so.

[AlecWest]

If I'm not mistaken, that scene is on the Godfather DVD collection. I hear what you are saying though. Judging by this board, most people don't view the extras.

It may be ... as an "extra." I bought "I and II" on DVD, after having seen the "Epic" version, stupidly believing they'd not muck around with it. They mucked (sigh). I wonder if the DVD collection includes all the cut scenes as extras. If it does, I may buy it, give my kid my old DVDs (and Part III, which I didn't like), and create my OWN chronological version. It's just a personal thing but I've always felt the chronological retelling of I/II was the best release.

[HatchetMan]

Yeah like Disney will NEVER release Song of the south. I think it got a VHS release overseas once and thats it. Reguardless of their reasons why are they allowed to just sit on this for eternity?

Yep, Song of the South is the only one that really comes to my mind. They say it was never officially released on home video in the US and that they will never release it. You can find illegal bootlegs on eBay, but I can't force myself to support a Disney bootlegger.

[AlecWest]

http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=mediatype%3Amovies%20AND%20collection%3Afeature_films

Been there, done that (grin) but thanks for mentioning it. I discovered that site back in my "VCD days" and became a downloading animal, hehe. They've got a lot of ephemeral stuff, too ... like "VD videos" shown to servicemen to scare them away from prostitutes (didn't work, hehe). That site is a treasure and I hope it never goes down.

[AlecWest]

Yep, Song of the South is the only one that really comes to my mind. They say it was never officially released on home video in the US and that they will never release it. You can find illegal bootlegs on eBay, but I can't force myself to support a Disney bootlegger.

Actually, it can still be bought "legally" in PAL VHS version. Click on the image below:



It's from Amazon in Germany ... but the tape is in English.

[lordsmurf]

I'm a firm believer in something sensible like a 25-year rule. That's plenty of time to capitalize on something. Make your money then let those that still appreciate the work (which is often not a huge group) be able to freely make it available.

Some many things have been lost and forgotten because of greed in trying to squeeze that last penny that never came.

[Ironballs]

Anyone know if this little gem will ever be out on DVD

http://imdb.com/title/tt0090858/?fr=c2l0ZT1kZnxteD0yMHxzZz0xfGxtPTIwMHx0dD1vbnxwbj0wfH...c=3;ft=14;fm=1

"Coast to Coast"

Is it me or are imdb urls a bit long these days?

[AlecWest]

Anyone know if this little gem will ever be out on DVD

http://imdb.com/title/tt0090858/?fr=c2l0ZT1kZnxteD0yMHxzZz0xfGxtPTIwMHx0dD1vbnxwbj0wfH...c=3;ft=14;fm=1

"Coast to Coast"

First note ... did you read the reviews? A guy named John Moliver (johnmoliver@whsmithnet.co.uk) taped it off BBC2 and invited people who liked the film to chat with him about it. Hint hint (grin). Second note. One of the reviewers said he contacted the producers to see if it would ever be released on home video. They said it would not due to ridiculous royalty demands of Motown Records for use of their songs in the film. What's worse? There is a sequel to the film that was produced but NEVER RELEASED!

[AlecWest]

I'm a firm believer in something sensible like a 25-year rule.

So were the founding fathers ... though they were willing to go for 28 years (14 years + one 14 year extention if the work's "creator" was still alive, Copyright Act of 1789). It's what the Constitution meant by "limited period." Everything from the Copyright Act of 1909 onward is, in my opinion, unconstitutional. But, I wouldn't want to argue that in court (grin) ... unless I had some powerful lawyers on my side.

P.S. "Turtles" in the mail at 9:30 AM this morning.

[HatchetMan]

Modern Girls (1986) is another hard one to come by, I got an original VHS off ebay a while back for my wife.

[bazooka]

While on the subject, what ever happened with Steamboat Willie public domain thing? I heard Disney wanted to prevent it from ever doing so.

That was the whole reason for the Sonny Bono Copyright Extension act.

They were about to lose the rights to Mickey Mouse and convinced congress to extend the copyright.

[bazooka]

Yeah like Disney will NEVER release Song of the south.

I have never seen it.

What was it about?

[lordsmurf]

I have no problems with lifetime trademarks. AT&T and Disney can keep their names and product names forever. They can reserve first-right use to create new content with their logos/characters/etc. But existing material, no. I would not want to see Microsoft or MGM making the next big "Mickey Mouse" flick. That's Disney's job.

But the Steamboat Willie toon? That was made close to 75 years ago or so. If MS or MGM or even little Timmy down the street wants to make it available... LET THEM!

Otherwise, it may rot away in a vault never to be seen again. That is anti-art, anti-culture, almost akin to certain non-USA political parties of the past century (think WWII, Cold War).

Even things from as little as FIVE YEARS AGO have been lost to us as general consumers. Something 25 years old should be freely available to all that want it.

Sonny Bono can suck the d---l's c--- in h--- for what he did to copyright law. As somebody else in this forum has said before ... "he didn't eat the tree fast enough".

[lordsmurf]

Yeah like Disney will NEVER release Song of the south.

I have never seen it.
What was it about?

Zip-A-Dee-Doo-Dah, Zippity-Ay ... Brer Rabbit, Brer Bear.
An excellent's and CLEAN children's tale.

Story takes place when blacks are slaves.
I'm sure you can guess why it's been made unavailable.

Poltical correctness is evil.

[AlecWest]

Story takes place when blacks are slaves.
I'm sure you can guess why it's been made unavailable.

There are still people who complain to school boards that their children are required to read "Huckleberry Finn" due to its racial overtones. But, the thing that scares Disney is public perception (primarily among African Americans) surrounding the "tone" of the film. Slavery has been dealt with in a number of films, all available on home video. The difference with "Song Of The South" is that the film portrays Uncle Remus as a "happy" slave. It would be akin to showing a musical comedy dealing with "happy" residents of Auschwitz to the Jewish Defense League. Also, the film broadbrushes "The South" (by nature of its title) as THE bastion for slavery in the U.S. when, in fact, there were many Northern slaveowners ... like General Ulysses S. Grant (until the Emancipation Proclamation made it illegal for him to do so).

Still, "Song Of The South" should be made available ... if for no better reason than as an educational tool (like "Huckleberry Finn") to show what prevailing attitudes were during certain times in our history ... so children, with parental guidance, will know what attitudes to avoid in their futures.

[Rookie64]

A far more controversal American-made film that has become banned is one of the best movies made during the '70s, Soldier Blue
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0066390/combined


It doesn't sugarcoat history the way Hollywood sugarcoats everything nowadays.

That it depicts what we did to the native-Americans in an extremely negative and violent context is someting taboo for today's more narrow-minded society. Not many Americans want to know about their own history unless it's patriotic....one of the huge differences between now and the '70s, when it seemed a lot more cool to be Anti-government and establishment. That era represented a time when we were actually free to
think, speak and express our thoughts...and could actually get away with it

Not attempting to make this thread political, but the basis of why many films are banned or no longer available have much to do with politics or economy.

[smearbrick1]

Anyone remember the movie "The Program"? I think it came out in the 90's. Anyway, the film had this controversial scene where the football players all layed in the middle of the street while cars were passing around them. After the initial run of the movie, that scene was excised completely from that movie. Was there ever a version of this released with that scene included?

[bazooka]

Anyone remember the movie "The Program"? I think it came out in the 90's. Anyway, the film had this controversial scene where the football players all layed in the middle of the street while cars were passing around them. After the initial run of the movie, that scene was excised completely from that movie. Was there ever a version of this released with that scene included?

Yes, I remember it.

No....There is no version with that scene in it.

[AlecWest]

A far more controversal American-made film that has become banned is one of the best movies made during the '70s, Soldier Blue
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0066390/combined


It doesn't sugarcoat history the way Hollywood sugarcoats everything nowadays.

Amen. I saw that film when it first came out. A masterpiece. And, used VHS copies are still out there (DVDs in Germany). There's a lot of history out there that gets white-washed by Hollywood. For example, did you know that when George Armstrong Custer was a Lt. Colonel, he was actually a champion of Indian rights??? It is suspected that the reason he was sent to a combat command in Souix Territory is because his "uppers" wanted him dead ... to shut him up. The "uppers" still got what they wanted, though, since his combat experience "corrupted" him to think like they did ... not to mention fill Custer with political ambitions. (Source: Louis L'amour's autobiography, "Education Of A Wandering Man")

That's why I'm a History Channel junkie. It's the main reason I bought myself that Hauppauge PVR-150 capture card ... since a lot of what you see on the History Channel is never translated into Hollywood films. Not long ago, they aired a show (sadly, before my card was installed) I hope they air again. It showed Japanese nuclear activity to develop a "dirty-bomb" to drop on the U.S. mainland during WWII. Every American critical of our use of the atom bomb on Japan should see that show. We were not nuclear aggressors, per se. We simply won the battle of time. If we hadn't dropped the bomb on them, they'd have dropped one on us ... not a fissionable bomb since they didn't have enough fissionable material ... but a nuclear bomb nonetheless that could have wiped out Los Angeles or San Francisco.

[AlecWest]

A politically incorrect P.S.

One of the things the U.S. government is chastised over is the internment of Japanese Americans during WWII. True story. My mom went to high school with a Japanese boy named Tae Funitake. His parents owned a mom/pop grocery store not far from my mom's house. Occasionally, my mom and her parents shopped there. During the period of internment, government officials raided the Funitake residence ... above the store. In it, they found shortwave radio equipment and manifest information on ships arriving and leaving Portland's docks. And, they also found Japanese government code manuals. The entire family was arrested and placed in an internment camp.

Of course, most Japanese Americans forced into internment camps were innocent and loyal Americans. But to think that everyone interred had clean sheets is a big mistake.

[JohnnyCNote]

I've found several hard to find titles here (as the name would suggest): Robert's Hard to find Videos

[lordsmurf]

I've found several hard to find titles here (as the name would suggest): Robert's Hard to find Videos

Any experience with them? It's a site that has not had updates in a couple of years, nothing has descriptions (not even quality markings), and my last e-mail went unanswered. I've had the same trouble with Sharpco Distributors (their phone numbers are disconnected, too). Not to mention the prices are crazy high, especially seeing how it's all homemade stuff (though almost all of it appears to easily be public domain, therefore legit). I'm a skeptic.