is freeware really free or do they want you to think that?

[MackemX]

there are some very popular free open source softwares that like to promote how they are free and such but also believe that all software should be software etc. I'm all for that if you can afford to code for free and have the time to do it but some people just don't have the time

without naming names, has anyone noticed that they then also have adverts for other commercial software/commercial sites or buy this, buy that, use this, use that adverts/banners on their sites? Now isn't that just completely contradictive seeing as they welcome making money from other software/commercial businesses but like to promote the fact theirs is free?

I know freeware/open source is great for a tools initial development but surely after a while you would drop the 'I'm a freeware, anti commercial supporter' attitude once you start making money from affiliations and adverts that sell commercial software

in my eyes they are now just the same as if they were selling their own software when reselling software/whatever through adverts etc. The biggest difference is that they have no responsibility to the paying user who clicks on their adverts apart from collecting whatever $'s they get

I'll be upfront, if I could make money on the interent I would and I'm pretty sure most members would also. We all need to put food in our mouths and roofs over our heads etc don't we?

I will just say that as I know if I say more I will probably upset a few people but you can read all about it in my autobiography soon to be available from Amazon :P

just my 2 cents and I hope I don't get flamed (I am a fireman with a big hose you know ) but rather get an interesting thread out of this 8)

[bazooka]

I have seen lots of freeware have spyware, so Imo, it is not really free.

[tekkieman]

The real meaning of "free" is as in "freedom", not "no charge". Open source allows you access to the application, and the source code. You are free to use it, alter it to suit your needs, or even to create a new product for which you can charge money for. There are rules for doing this, but that can be saved for later if need be.

A good example is Fedora Core linux. The software is free (as in no charge), and is supported by the community. You are given the source, and are free (as in freedom) to alter it to fit your needs. It is produced by Red Hat, and they let people have it, play with it, etc. and then use that feedback to enhance their commercial offering of Red Hat Enterprise Linux. Everybody wins.

Yes, there are some people who create software with limitations, spyware, or ads, all of which is used to genrate revenue. However, what is it that you want for nothing? If you want free software, start writing it. I write software for a living, and I damn well expect to be paid for it. I also work on some free software, but you need to understand that you get my limited time, and thus, limited software. When one of you want to pay my bills, I'll provide you with commercial quality software. If you want it for free, you'll get what I have time to give you.

I hope what I say does not offend anyone, but that is one opinion from one software developer. I'm sure there are others.

[MackemX]

good point bazooka and that's raises another similar point

many also have adverts actually within them but like to say the program is free

very little is 'truely free' in this world

as I said I'm not against freeware, far from it. I'm just confused by the way some are anti commercial yet behind the scenes make money from people using their 'free' software one way or another

I do respect the guys who have coded completely free programs and even more the ones who don't even ask for donations. I've also nothing against them going to work for companies or even releasing their own software

I just don't agree with the 'all software should be free' movement as it's an impossibilty that all software 'could be free'. Out of the millions employed in the software industry how many would work for free?, not many I can tell you that . That would be the same as asking everyone to go to work tomorrow and donate all their wages to Baldrick. It would be nice but it just wouldn't happen. I did notice only 7 people have donated so far in this month of goodwill

what I am in support of is 'fair pricing' for software. I wonder how many 'warez' users of MicroSoft products would pay for a legitimate key if Windows XP was say $20-$30 etc. There was an example of a new game just released and they had over 20,000 illegal people playing online within a few weeks. Imagine how many were playing offline!

why doesn't Mr Bill gates or any other chief software man offer just the activation key without official support or even without the program download (most have the program already) for a fraction of the cost?

I mean what does it cost to send an email after processing an order automatically? I bet you could easily sell at least 1,000 legitimate serials for XP PRO on Ebay for $20-$30 within a week and be ever increasing once the word spread about.

the fat cats moan about piracy but it's their overinflated prices that only promote the warez usage

p.s, lol , I must get out more!

[MackemX]

The real meaning of "free" is as in "freedom", not "no charge". Open source allows you access to the application, and the source code. You are free to use it, alter it to suit your needs, or even to create a new product for which you can charge money for. There are rules for doing this, but that can be saved for later if need be.

I don't take offence and I don't think anyone will, I'm just interested in people's view . I agree with what you say but I've just noticed another example of what I mean about an open source software supporter who have their program and site. The open source you gave isn't like the one I just saw

not only does it have it's own shop but it links to other 3rd parties such as a link to a betting shop, travelshop, mortgages, loans, life insurance etc

now is that a business or are they really coding for free as they are advertising/promoting for free also? Why don't they support free betting/travel/mortgages/loans/life insurance? Surely it's all the same thing, somebody else's work for free isn't it?

yes, it's open source but it isn't 'truely free' as someone is gaining financially somewhere one way or another

maybe I shouldn't have used open source in my posts as there are also plenty open source programs out there that do not gain financially in any way. Freeware which is non open source and open source software are two completely different things I guess

If you want free software, start writing it. I write software for a living, and I damn well expect to be paid for it. I also work on some free software, but you need to understand that you get my limited time, and thus, limited software. When one of you want to pay my bills, I'll provide you with commercial quality software. If you want it for free, you'll get what I have time to give you.

I don't code but I may as well the amount of hours I've spent on this hobby and I couldn't agree more . I've seen some people that get spoilt by popular freeware programs and expect all the other softwares to be free

[thecoalman]

without naming names, has anyone noticed that they then also have adverts for other commercial software/commercial sites or buy this, buy that, use this, use that adverts/banners on their sites?

They have to pay the bills somehow... I still wonder how baldrick does it At the very least they shouldn't lose money.

[tekkieman]

I wanted to come back to this thread anyway to apologize to the developers who have provided many high quality useful applications I use in this hobby. My statements were not intended to diminish your efforts or imply that these application are sub-standard.

In the last couple of weeks, I have used many of them. DVD2AVI, Rejig, AC3fix, Besweet, VirtualdubMod, ffmpeggui, DVD Shrink, etc. All outstanding applications, and unbelievable that they are free.

Thank you for the efforts!

That said, as much as I appreciate free software, there are times that software can not and should not be free. At times license fees need to be paid to other companies, etc. Sometimes people will still offer the software for free, but pay for it in other ways. Even our favorite hang out here! Baldrick has provided us with the premier spot for video enthusiasts. He however, has costs associated with it. While I'm sure he welcomes the donations, he does not force his requests down our throats, and by not doing that, it is sometimes easy to forget to thank him with whatever we might be able to spare. I know many here contribute in many other ways, and I'm not trying to diminish their efforts either. So, he has some very unobtrusive ads on the site (so I'm told, I'm not sure I've really seen them). So, I guess this proves your point. Even Videohelp.com is not free. Hey, I live in the land of the free, and I can tell you....very little actually is!

[richdvd]

Let the people who create the software decide if it's free or not. If you want money for your work, then that's fine. Some people don't. A big hat's off to the people who provide us with great free programs.

This post isn't attacking anyone.
Consider it to be general.

[housepig]

I think it's fine - if I go to a software site and download a piece of freeware, I could care less if they are making money advertising - they aren't compelling me to click on an ad to get the software. there's nothing forcing me to pay any attention to the advertising, except to look past it to get to the download link.

more power to 'em. If I play a free concert in the park, should I be compelled to give away cd's, or can I sell them to support my habit of playing for free in the park? If I could code, and I could find a way to sell ads to support myself and allow the product of my code to be free, I'd be all for it.

everybody draws their lines in a different place...

[ViRaL1]

Almost anything I don't have to pay for is okay with me..unless of course it annoys the hell out of me a la pop ups etc. I don't see anything wrong with developers funding their works through advertising or donations. On the other hand I don't see any problem with charging a fee for something that you put your time and effort into. In the end, if you make something worthwhile, people will pay for it (not everyone, but some). I don't think a piece of software is bettter than another just because it's free.

[tekkieman]

Speaking of "free software", I was talking to someone about linux viruses, and came across this in google...

[ViRaL1]

That seems a bit high. Try Pricewatch or Pricegrabber.

[Shadowmistress]

I believe that the price of software is directly proportional to how dependant the user is that it works right. Someone installing Windows (ok, I know, bad example) want's a guarantee that it will work with minimal flaws and is willing to pay a higher price for that.

These same people will turn to a free alternative when installing something like a solitaire card game. If it works, fine, if it doesn't, move on to the next game.

The reason we have software with ads (highly annoying) is cause the programs importance falls somewhere in the middle, holding us hostage to seeing them, but dammit the program is too good to pass up.

Should it all be free? No. Nothing would be dependable and nobody would be held accountable.
Should it all be charged for? No. There would be no room for communal technological growth.
Should there be advertising? Although annoying, it keeps the thing free so yes, anything that stays free and accessible to the casual browser as long as possible is all right by me. (Except when they embed the advertising in the program and don't tell you about it. At that point they're just greedy.)

[sacajaweeda]

without naming names, has anyone noticed that they then also have adverts for other commercial software/commercial sites or buy this, buy that, use this, use that adverts/banners on their sites?

They have to pay the bills somehow... I still wonder how baldrick does it

https://www.videohelp.com/donate

[bazooka]

Tekkie,

I meant no offense toward you or any other programmer.

You do have the right to be paid for your work, and I am not looking for something for nothing.

My point was that there is a proliferation of so-called freeware that is riddled with spyware which defeats the purpose of the freeware tag.

Open source software is excellent because you can tweak it however you like.



Merry Christmas

[jimmalenko]

Being a programmer myself, and having made my fair share of GUIs to automate onerous manual tasks or to enable batch processing for plenty of CLI applications, I believe that the developer has a right to cover their costs. I speak from a hobbyist's point of view, as I have a full-time job to keep me going and any of my projects are simply labours of love. By the time we factor in web-hosting, domain names etc etc (and excluding labour in the sense of the time taken in the physical creation of the software), I think the developer has the right to charge whatever they see as fair and equitable in order to ensure that they are not out of pocket. Some choose to wear the cost and allow donations, others cgoose to charge a fee straight-up.

If I were to get access to free web-hosting (for example, Baldrick would let me host here), then I'd put up all my GUIs for no charge, so I guess I'm working on a Not-for-Profit business plan

[thecoalman]

https://www.videohelp.com/donate

I've seen the donate page before but it's not exactly overflowing with donations. Servers using this kind of bandwidth aren't cheap and those offering freeware would use a lot more if they were popular.

[jimmalenko]

@MackemX:

Love the sig !!!

[bazooka]

@MackemX:

Love the sig !!!

His sig was used to shut me up.

[jimmalenko]

@MackemX:

Love the sig !!!

His sig was used to shut me up.

As much as it pains me to say it, IMO you deserved it

[bazooka]

@MackemX:

Love the sig !!!

His sig was used to shut me up.

As much as it pains me to say it, IMO you deserved it

Ok....

Do you even know what I am talking about?

[jimmalenko]

Do you even know what I am talking about?

https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1145711#1145711

I was there !

[bugster]

Back on topic.

There are several 'flavours' of freeware.

GPL or open source software. This software is usually (but not always) free to acquire. The things that makes it 'free' though is freedom to modify. You can do this because the original source code is made availble to you. So with a compiler and some programming knowledge, you can (in theory at least) modify it to suit your needs.

Adware/Spyware. This is software that is given away for no charge. However, in order to make money out of it the authors add some adware/spyware. That way they can get paid for advertising etc. Some do this just to make a living, others make a big business out of it (Kazaa anyone?)

Hobbyist freeware. Lots of this, some fantastic, some pretty simple. This is the true freeware to many people. Some of the more succesful proggys that fall into this category have their own web sites and even support forums. Many of these carry advertsing simply to pay the bandwidth costs (just like here)

Thats just 3 types of software that could be covered by the heading 'freeware', there are probably others. So be careful when talking about freeware that you specify what kind of freeware that you mean in order not to upset/annoy/antagonise people that may misunderstand your intentions.

[MackemX]

@thecoalman, yes I agree fully. My point being that just about everyone has bills and very few softwares are actually non-money making be it through direct sales or in-direct promotions/advertising.

I have hobbies but I wouldn't expect other people who do it for a living to do it for free. Yet some people are very 'software should be free' motivated as are some users of free software. This is the attitude that I guess I'm just moaning about. That's why I say all software shouldn't be free but be fairly priced as should CD's/DVD's etc

@tekkieman, I agree with what you just said . I didn't even think about Videohelp but it's not something I was getting at as it's not a software program, it's a very large information website. Baldrick deserves all he gets as where would we all be now if we had never stumbled across this site? I'm sure more would contribute if even if they could or remember like me

@richdvd, good point again as long as nobody questions the authors intent to charge for their work which sometimes happens

@housepig, I think we all have a line as money does talk and it is also evil

@ViRaL1, excellent points as I also don't think that price makes a difference on a software's performance though it may make it more or less appealing. Also, people using the same software will value it more than the next person. The fact that people are willing to pay high prices means that the price is high, simple supply/demand economics. That means people who don't use the software to it's maximum potential or use it rarely are in effect paying more per usage . That's why I said if software was cheap enough then people would end up buying more software programs due to the fact they won't lose as much per program finacially

@shadowmistress, again i agree with all you say, especially the last part of your post

@sacajaweeda, spammmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmma

@bazooka, it's just a temporary signature but you gotta admit it's funny . That's all water under the bridge anyway

@all, my point is not the fact I'm against free software or the fact they gain financialy indirectly from it. I just can't agree with people who also say all software should be free

on a much larger scale you could compare charity workers to freeware coders as they work for free also. They don't have people who say that working people are evil and everyone should work for charity though do they? I don't think everyone in the world could work for free like they do and great respect to them for doing it 8)

so what's the big deal about all software should be free that some people like to promote?

[bugster]

so what's the big deal about all software should be free that some people like to promote?

From what I have seen, these are mainly the 'open source' advocates. In that case free means 'free as in speech' not 'free as in beer' (to paraprase a well know quote!)

[MackemX]

@bugster, I think I started off on the wrong path in this thread as it's not the fact freeware sometimes isn't free. If you don't have to pay to use the software then it's free . It's up to the user to click on the adverts or promotions if there are any

what has puzzled me is the belief that some people like to say that all software should be free, such as those who have either developed free software or those who use free software. They look down upon those who decide to charge for software. I agree with it in some respect as there is plenty of ripoff software out there but there is also some excellent software. As with any purchase, it all goes down to how much research you put into something before buying it

maybe another factor is that paying for software upfront means the developer has a lot more responsibilities to that user such as a refund, support etc as they are a business providing a service

most guys accept donations but from what I've seen and heard, donations for most are pennies in comparision to the work/effort put into the project . I wonder how many software authors would accept a fair price payment for their software if they had no aftersales responsibilities? I'm all for freeware but if given the chance to sell my software for a reasonable price I'm sure as hell would take it

I'm not trying to upset anyone but just get an opinion. From what I've seen so far I guess I'm the same as most hot blooded males, if it's there take it as long as you deserve it

all in all, I guess I'm just saying that over the years, freeware has spoilt some people a little into expecting more for less

[tekkieman]

I don't see that you've upset anyone here. I personally am enjoying the opinions in this thread. As I said earlier, I expect to be paid well for what I produce, and I am (considering I spend more time posting here than producing code). I would also enjoy doing more free (as in free beer) software. Unfortunately, I'm behind on a project, was just given two more projects, and have certain responsibilities as a husband and father.

When I can find the time, I will produce something that I hope someone finds useful to repay those who have provided me with something I found useful.

[MackemX]

this makes an interesting read

http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-software-for-freedom.html

it's great that you are allowed to modify and pass on the code/program but that only applies to a select few who can code as I can't

I wish I could code due to the amount of ideas/methods I have as I'd be rich now and sitting on a beach in Australia , or wherever is sunny and warm this time of year

@tekkieman, I wanted someone to code me an application last year but couldn't find anyone to help so I went to some local businesses that offered coding services. I fell backwards at the prices I was quoted and just gave up looking for a coder to code my ideas and methods into a program.

I even put a post in these forums, https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=196395 , for a coder to help create a tool and nobody replied . I was wanting to create and develop Menumodder at the time. I had worked out all the formulas to read/show/export the data and wrote it in simple basic any coder could understand. I did eventually find someone, at my own expense, paying a coder and I just released it for free to work with DVDStripper as I coudn't justify taking money for it. The guy who coded for me knew nothing about DVD's so I'm pleased with the results we got after 10 days in one respect, although a lot of that time was just trying to get the video preview to work as everything else worked . However I'm very disappointed I couldn't find a coder as I knew it could have been far better and probably developed into something much bigger. I've got a few little apps of my own I paid for to make life easier when making backups but who knows maybe one day I will meet a coder who knows his DVD stuff willing to help

[tekkieman]

Sorry, missed that thread. That was during my laid off time, and I was on dialup. I wasn't even registered here at the time (although I did lurk from time to time).

Maybe some time after the holidays we can revisit your project and see what you need. I assume since it is your project you have the existing source code. If you're interested, figure out what you want done, what NDA's you want in place, and I'll let you know how much of it I can handle.

[Shadowmistress]

In a "free" community where there is no money, can't you use giving partial credit for the project as a bribe?