ATI TV Wonder USB 2.0 - any experiences?

[trock]

Hi,

I was just about to buy the ATI TV Wonder USB 2.0 for direct MPEG2 captures when I read on the ATI site that the USB version only caps in AVI and it's the PCI versions that cap in MPEG2.

The vendor states that it caps as "raw, uncompressed video" which seems to support this but in various reviews they refer to it capturing in MPEG2 or 4.

Does anyone have one and know which is true? Also, one review says that the picture quality of the USB version is not as good as the PCI versions. Again, anyone who has one or has seen one and can comment?

thanks,

trock

[hhamzeh]

Hi,

I do not know which website you are refering to, but ATI website indicates that TV wonder USB 2.0 captures in MPEG1, MPEG2 and MPEG4 in addition to AVI format. please check the following link.

http://ati.com/products/tvwonderusb20/features.html

I hope this helped.

[edDV]

I'm curious about your expectations for this box. What do you expect it to do and what are you trying to do?

There may be a better way.

[trock]

Same website, this page:

http://www.ati.com/products/faqs/atitvwonderfaq.html#1

states:

Q3: What formats do the TV WONDER family of products support?

A3: The ATI-TV Wonder and TV Wonder VE products support MPEG-1, MPEG-2 and .AVI capture. The TV Wonder USB Edition supports .AVI capture.

and shows a comparison chart:

TV WONDER™ - MPEG-1/2, AVI
TV WONDER™ VE - MPEG-1/2 AVI
TV WONDER™ USB Edition - AVI

[trock]

I'm curious about your expectations for this box. What do you expect it to do and what are you trying to do?

There may be a better way.

I want to save PC encoding time (I currently use TMPGEnc) and I'm looking for an inexpensive direct to MPEG2 capture method - other than the JVC-10MS - that can encode with quality as good as I get with TMPGEnc. I have no PCI slots left so it has to be external.

If you know a better way, I'm all ears.

[vhelp]

@ trock

Although you didnt' say.. so far, I have not seen any hardware mpeg type
device that factors in Telecine materials. All these boxes (including my ADS)
all encode straight through, at 29.970 fps .. weather Interlace or Film. I guess
that's another reason why we all want to:

* capture to avi
* encode according to source (Interlace or IVTC)

Course, you've already read my post on the DVD Xpress (hardware mpeg)
that I gave a little review about. I also included a sample PIC from a commercial
VHS tape on page 2. (case you didn't see it) It was capture and encoded to
MPEG-2 straight** through at 29.970 fps (**sorry, don't know any other word to
use)
*without* any IVTC But its only a small price to pay. Still good quality
for when we need it, and are just too lazy or want an alterative to our *other*
method of video processing

Have you tried or seen any test captures from the Hauppauge PVR-250/350
or even PVR USB-2 on the sources you are interested in workin on ??
It would be interesting to see the results / comparisons.

Good luck on your search,
-vhelp

[trock]

Thanks vhelp. The Haupagges get good reviews for their image quality.

I don't need IVTC but I have just realized a flaw in my search for an instant MPEG2 solution and that is that I'm guessing that none of these boxes, and not even the JVC-10MS, capture the audio to AC3.

If I have to demux the audio track, convert it to AC3 and then remux etc. it kind of defeats the purpose of trying to save time.

Hmmm....

[trock]

I just found out that the JVC-10MS does capture the audio as AC3 so that may be the way I have to go.

Unless anyone knows of a USB 2 capture box that also does? The Hauppage and ATI manuals don't mention AC3 so I'm guessing that they don't.

trock

[FulciLives]

I just found out that the JVC-10MS does capture the audio as AC3 so that may be the way I have to go.

Unless anyone knows of a USB 2 capture box that also does? The Hauppage and ATI manuals don't mention AC3 so I'm guessing that they don't.

trock

My understanding is that both Hauppauge WinTV PVR units (the PCI 250 and PCI 350) do MP2 and so does the ATI cards.

I think I read that doing PCM WAV on both is possible but then opens the units up to possible audio sync problems.

If you could get these units to do PCM WAV without sync issues then that would give you as good a source as you can get for converting it yourself to AC-3 format (after the capture that is).

If you have to go MP2 then I would use the highest setting (usually a bitrate of 384kbps) then convert it to AC-3 at about 256kbps.

I think all the stand alone DVD recorders (at least most) do AC-3 at 256kbps although oddly most commercial DVD releases use 192kbps for 2.0 AC-3 audio.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

P.S.
I don't think the ATI USB models can do PCM WAV at all now that I think about it ... but I am not 100% on that.

[trock]

Thanks John, that confirms what I've been finding.

I did some tests today demuxing and then converting the .mpa's to .wav's and then converting those to AC3's and it took about 15 minutes for every hour of footage. I know I can go directly from .mpa to AC3 with BeSweet but I need maximum compatibility so I'm using the TMPGEnc AC3 encoder.

Looks like the JVC-10MS is the way to go for what I need, after all.

trock

[FulciLives]

Thanks John, that confirms what I've been finding.

I did some tests today demuxing and then converting the .mpa's to .wav's and then converting those to AC3's and it took about 15 minutes for every hour of footage. I know I can go directly from .mpa to AC3 with BeSweet but I need maximum compatibility so I'm using the TMPGEnc AC3 encoder.

Yes the way you are doing it is about as good as you can for starting with MP2 audio. I too would agree that using BeSweet to go straight from MP2 to AC3 is a bad idea.

Looks like the JVC-10MS is the way to go for what I need, after all.

Well that really depends on what you are trying to do.

If you are using the computer simply to capture straight to MPEG then yeah you might as well just get a stand alone DVD recorder.

You can get better quality (especially out of less-than-steller quality sources) using the computer method but only if you do an AVI capture and then use filters etc. followed by a software MPEG encoding.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[trock]

You can get better quality (especially out of less-than-steller quality sources) using the computer method but only if you do an AVI capture and then use filters etc. followed by a software MPEG encoding.

That's how I started but then found that I got better and faster results by using hardware proc amps and detailers prior to the AVI capture so that's what I mostly do now, and then do my editing and software encoding without post-capture filters, except in extreme cases.

But I have some clients and projects where the direct-to-MPEG2 approach (through my proc amp/detailer chain) with PC editing and then DVD authoring without re-encoding would work better and save time. So I think the stand-alone DVD recorder will be a useful addition.

Thanks for all your very useful feedback.

trock

[Skiffer]

A few things:

1) The ATI TV Wonder USB that the first couple of posts are referring to is, I believe, the TV Wonder USB(1.1) version. The USB2.0 version can and does capture direct to MPEG1/2/4, AVI, and WMV all with excellent quality.

2) The TV Wonder USB2.0 in conjunction with the ATI MMC software available with it does not allow you to capture audio directly to AC3. Whether it may with other capture software, I dunno.

3) But how certain are you that you need to have AC3 instead of MP2 audio? I leave my captures in MP2 most of the time, since all of the DVD players I've tested on (North American region) play MP2 without any problems. The only time I convert to AC3 is if I want a more professional finish that I want to make sure is compatible with absolutely *all* NTSC players. I assume (and I know the problem in that) that you're not interested in being as professional as possible with your DVDs because you say that you're more interested in cutting out unneccessary time. You may want to make a test DVD with MP2 audio and test the various players that you might want to use it on to see if you really need to add that step.

4) AFAIK, there is no such thing as a "direct" conversion between MP2 and AC3. In order to recode the audio as AC3, the converter first has to *de*compress the MP2 audio stream to a lossless format (probably PCM/Wave). So using a converter like BeSweet to convert from MP2 to AC3 should net the same result as MP2 to WAV and then WAV to AC3. In fact, if you're looking for the speedy solution, MP2 to AC3 sbould be *better* than other methods.

[Skiffer]

Welp, trock, I seem to have missed your last post. So you can just probably disregard point 3 in *my* last post, since it does look like you want the more professional finish. :P

[vhelp]

* Can anyone confirm what these stand-alone uses in its bitrates ??

* at highest quality mode/settign ??

At least w/ a dedicated hardware mpeg-2 (lets forget about the MPEG-1)
you have some flexibility, like setting bitrate as high as 15k.., though
one would not use such a high bitrate, unless the goal is to re-encode.
In this "re-encode" scenario, I could understand this, if your *space*
was on the limited side of things. And in this case, a hardware mpeg-2
card or device/box would be a wise choice.., simply because you can go
as high as 15k (for re-encoding perposes) and get *MAXimum* output quality
.
That's pretty much my argument in this case.., where a stand-alone does not
offer such high bitrates. And if you are going this "re-encode" route (or
someday plan a few mabe) then a stand-alone is not the best alternative (IMO)

Have you condisidered this "re-encode" as a possible alternatives to some
of your projects (future'wise) ??
This might be something to factor into your equation of $$$ in your final
decision.


If your clients are giving your DV footage (from cams) then you already know
that it's Interlace sources. You only worry about processing these, are
weather or not, they used a Tripod; and if the person behind the cam was
a pro or semi-pro, among other "pro" attributes.
In any case, becasue these are "pure interlace" sources, you would expect
*no gain* in quality, excpet your (wisdom and skills/knowledge)
.
Course, if source was Film (or variation there of.., (assuming CAM again))
you have some *leverage* to work with. But since you didn't say what your
clients will be giving you (could be many things) I'm just assuming/speculating
here

But, for a really "professional" results, you obviously know that no hardware
(or stand-alone) will give you such. Not even my semi-new toy I've ben testing
out these past few weeks.

If you don't mind my two-cents worth ...
.
I have found that pretty much all capture devices (excluding hardware devices,
per my experience) exhibit Noise during capturing. However way the Noise is
obtain and finally "imprented" onto each video frame is beyond me. All I do
know, and for sure, is that these PCI cards exhibit some variation/form of
Noise. Take that with a grain of Sand/Salt if you will.
.
So far, I have seen the ADVC-100 do a terrific job at various Noisy sources.
That includes my Antenna. (you've already seen a small sample clip, elsewheres
for a demo of what I'm talking about) However, I don't think that the ADVC-100
handles VHS sources very well. I've been testing this for quite some time now.
I do believe, however that for everything else, the ADVC is flawless. I believe
it's something to do with "granularity" in the source (ie, VHS) But, using an
alternative (for VHS) I found that my TRV22 was *flawless* in my VHS transfers.

Another thing to be weary of ...
.
Is the use of Graphics Cards in your video reproduction. I continue to maintain
my *ninja* fight - that these cards of today, are hiding (masking) the video's
true output. My ATI Rage Fury Pro card is an exceptional card. I can see
detail (and color) in a differnt light vs. todays cards. I'm basing this on
my experience w/ my nVidia graphics cards (which I discarded from my pc)
With the Rage Fury Pro card, I can see "blacks" as they would be, as watched on
a TV set. Well, close enough. I can see variations in the shades of black.
This is a technique I learned. Probably by coninsendnce. I don't know. But,
all I do know, is that I'm correct in this statement to the best of my knowledge.
I realize that you are looking for something on the "quick" side. But you did
say that you end goal, is to give as professional as possible. I'm just sharing
my experience (and wisdom) with you here

I'm also becoming increasingly doubtful about these external color devices.
I have my SIMA SCC and tested it pretty well. Something it does a great job,
and other times, it doesn't. Its a hit or miss. But, then I'm also doubtful
of it's capabilities (dispite what I might have said previously)
.
I think its all about *concertos* That is.., having the right combination of
settings and codecs and devices etc etc in a given project. Sometimes, things
go great for a while, until something is changed in your setup/system. You may
not realize it, until a later date, when something comes to your attention or
rememerance.., of quality, and you just can't seem to get it right, just like
before. Then you start to wonder. "..Why isn't it working like before?"
I can't tell you how many times I have encountered that exact scenario.
.
One thing I am sure of, is that codecs and frameserving don't always go hand
in hand. I've ben searching far, for the right *sweet spot* of receipies in
my video endeavors. Mostly, my sources are film, unless DV footage (which
I use a tripod for - always. But you can't control that w/ customers/clients)
But, with Film sources, I have found a way out of using VirtualDUB and AVIsynth
all-to-gether.., and go directly into TMPG, when IVTC is required. I found the
secret to a perfect IVTC when the source is true Film (not distroted Telecine)
and have eliminated a (codec encode) step in the chain of things.
.
I think that if you can afford it, get one of those stand-alone recorders, and
using it and *your* hardware mpeg-2 card/device, pair them up with each's own
MAXimum bitrate allowence, and then do a re-encode from them both. Better yet,
see which one produces the *most* pixelations or blocks (at highest bitrate) if
your endeavor is to re-encode.
(with my DVD Xpress, the mpeg-2 is encoded w/ BOTTOM field first)

Well, the above is something to think about, in your quest for "pro-quality"
results.

Feel free to comment on it if you like
-vhelp

[trock]

@Skiffer - thanks for clarifying about the USB vs USB2 MPEG capture. I have clients who sell the DVDs broadly and need to know that they will play in the largest number of players possible, so AC3 is a must.

@vhelp - Thanks very much for your detailed feedback. Interesting point about the 15k encoding. I'm still researching and I may still try either the ATI or Hauppage USB2 units first. I got interested in the JVC-10MS approach after seeing GShelley61's post about getting better quality from the unit than from the usual PC capture, VDub filters, PC encode methods. He was the one who turned me on to proc amps and detailers and he was correct there. I've tested a bunch of them, including the BVP-4, and I've settled on the excellent SignVideo units.

My clients do give me many things ranging from pro DV (stuff for TV broadcasts) to poor quality VHS. I also have the occasional client who only wants a direct DVD copy of a VHS tape with nothing done to it except pre-processing and for those the standalone approach is much more time and cost-effective since capture and encoding is done at the same time. Last night I tried an analog to DV (JVC 9911 to Pyro) to MPEG2 simultaneous capture and encode using Movie Edit Pro 2005 and the Ligos encoder and it came out remarkably well compared to previous attempts with other systems including a hardware MPEG encoder.

Yes, I saw your screenshot of your ADS DVD Express cap and your TVR22 cap but I prefer the caps I am getting now with my analog card, especially since getting the JVC 9911 and also the ADS Pyro (so long as I use my AMD to capture - on my P4 the Pyro caps come out slightly fuzzy for some reason that I haven't definitively identified). I agree with you about the ADV-100 not being a good resource for VHS captures. I use Matrox cards for the graphics side and I've been happy with them.

I'm also familiar with the "..Why isn't it working like before?" scenario.

trock

[Comandante G]

I am just a begginer, but you may take into consideration the following information.

You should consider that the ATI TV Wonder USB 2,0 requires to be plugged in, and has no standard remote control unit, while other units use energy from the USB connection and provide a remote control unit. Power may be important if you plan to use it in a notebook.

You should be carefull if you need stereo audio, the ATI Wonder USB supports stereo.

If you plan to use it in a notebook while travelling (Europe or Latin America), you may also consider broadcasting standards other than NTSC. I was told by people form ATI that its TV Wonder USB 2.0 provide input support from diferent PAL standards, like PAL-E (Europe), PAL-M (Brazil) or PAL-N (Argentina). I am not sure what exactly means "just input"

Regarding MPEG, there are units that make conversions using software (use more CPU) while other render this function to the graphic card. This is the case for the ATI unit.

You may download the Intallation and Setup Users Guide from

http://www.ati.com/support/manualpdf/tvwnusb2.pdf?type=pc&cardType=TUNERS&prod=PCtuner...x=8&submit.y=5

The MPEG-2 playback on a PC requires an MPEG-2 decoder (not included with the TV Wonder USB 2.0). With ATI graphics cards, MPEG-2 decoders use the ATI hardware IDCT and motion compensation, which provides higher resolution video playback and less CPU loading than the Microsoft MPEG-1 decoder. (page 35)

File Player (page 39) states that you can play MPEG-2 if an appropriate MPEG decoder (not included) is installed.

[FulciLives]

From what I've seen (still image "shots" from captures including some short actual MPEG clips) the Hauppauge WinTV PVR-250 (and it's more expensive 350 brother) seem to be the best pure HARDWARE MPEG encoders that you can buy for a computer ... at least without spending an insane amount of money.

The ATI video cards (like the AIW and VIVO models) only do a partial hardware assist MPEG encoding. Not sure about how the USB2 version works though.

I know Hauppauge also makes a USB2 version similiar to the WinTV PRV-250/350 ... similiar in that it does pure hardware MPEG encoding.

Canopus also makes a pure hardware MPEG encoder capture card (and external USB2 version) but it is hardwired for a black level of 0.0 IRE which is out of spec for all forms of NTSC (other than Japanese NTSC). So really that is only an option for Japanese NTSC or PAL users ... unless Canopus has since fixed that but my understanding is they have not.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

P.S.
There are a few users on here with the Hauppauge cards that have said they encode the capture at 12,000kbps to 15,000kbps becuase they like to edit/filter etc. then do a 2-pass/multi-pass software encode to get it down to standard DVD MPEG-2 spec.

[trock]

Thanks for all the information. I've recently been getting good results via realtime software MPEG encoding using the Movie Edit Pro 2005 DV to MPEG capture option.

But just this week I found a JVC DR-10MS for $224 so that should be arriving any day now.

trock