VCR comparison (with pics).

[Brent212]

I just got a JVC hr-s9911u, and I have to say that I'm not really impressed. I've only had a chance to use it with two tapes, but I have done a lot of analyzing of the different VCR functions using those two tapes. One of the tapes is pretty new, watched maybe 10 times since removing the plastic about 6 months ago. The other is an older tape, bought used off of ebay. Both exhibit the "flagging" effect (where the top of the frame is screwed up) on my other VCR (a Sharp), and I've heard that a TBC is needed to correct this. This flagging effect isn't nearly as bad on the newer tape as it is on the older one. On the newer tape it's limited to the top left corner whereas on the older one its the entire top portion of the frame.

The thing I've noticed that is a HUGE disappointment is that with both tapes, using the TBC/NR on the VCR causes the picture to playback very "jerkily", or maybe a better way to describe it is that there's a lot of jitter. The only good thing the TBC/NR does is remove the flagging effect. The jitter effect is particularly noticeable in parts of the videos where there's just text on the screen, standing still in one spot. With the TBC/NR on, it jumps around constantly, whereas with it off the text remains stable. The stabilizer function is pretty much worthless with these two tapes also. With the TBC/NR turned off, they do play back remarkably smooth.

I did a comparison of the picture quality last night between video capped with the 9911, and my Sharp, along with the same video capped with a JVC HM-DH40000U (which I returned). This is from the older tape, from ebay. The results surprised me.

They were all capped with the exact same settings in my capture software (WinTV2000, using a Hauppauge 250). The JVC VCR's were using the S-Video outputs (though I forgot to note it on the 9911 images) to the S-Video input on my capture card, while the Sharp only has a composite out. Here are the pics:









The easiest way to compare these images is to open them up in a viewing utility like the Windows Picture Viewer that comes with XP, and scroll through them, so you can pick a spot in the picture and instantly see the difference in the next image. One area of interest that really shows the difference I think is the skid mark on the ground at the bottom middle of the screen.

The 9911 pics both look similar in terms of quality, besides the fact that the TBC fixes the flagging at the top of the screen. This would be great except that it's unusable because the actual video is completely un-smooth. The Sharp image seems to me to be the best. A little raw maybe, but it seems so much clearer, especially when toggled back and forth with one of the 9911 images. It's like putting on a pair of glasses when you go from a 9911 image to the Sharp image. Especially when looking at that skid mark. The JVC 40000 seems to be in the middle of the two, which I like.

So my question is this: would using a separate TBC (like the Datavideo TBC-1000) fix the flagging while not introducing the same annoying jerkiness in the video that the built in TBC/NR does on the 9911? If so, that'd be excellent. I'd just (try to) return the 9911 and use a TBC-1000 with the Sharp. I gotta say, that Sharp is an awesome VCR. I think it cost like $60-70 about 8 years ago, and has been running strong since then. About four years ago a part even broke off inside and I had to super glue it back, but it still remains pretty solid.

Another interesting thing that I've noticed is the flagging effect is not present in the display of my capturing program, because it doesn't display the entire frame. In order to see it, I have to open the resulting .mpg in a software player. I'm pretty sure it wouldn't show up on a television also (or at least both my tv and my roommate's tv), because the full frame isn't displayed there either. I noticed that when text at the top of a menu in a recent authoring project was cut off when the dvd was played on my tv. Seems like 5-10% of each side of the frame gets lost on a tv.

[BrainStorm69]

Looks to me like you have one really crappy source tape there! I'm not sure about correcting the jittery problem, but it looks like you might have your fields reversed in those caps. Also, I find with my HR-S9900U that I get the best detail out of VHS tapes by using the following settings:

Video Calibration - ON
Picture Control - EDIT
Digital R3 - ON
TBC/DNR - ON

Hope that helps, but your source may be so bad that even the JVC can't help it. The only time I ever experienced a jittery picture with my JVC is when I tried capping a VHS-C tape from my camcorder using one of those adapters. In that instance some of my other vcrs did do a better job.

BTW, yes there is an area around the sides, top and bottom of the cap that will not show on a TV due to overscan.

[Bob W]

I have one of the high end JVC VCR's which I replaced with a Mitsubishi VCR. IMO the Mitsubishi outputs a better picture (s-video out).

[richdvd]

So these JVC's arent worth the hype?

[gshelley61]

The 9911 isn't that great compared to the earlier high-end JVC's like the 9600 and the 9800. I am very lucky to have a JVC SR-W5U which is an analog High Def w-vhs recorder that is also a master quality s-vhs unit. It has a full-frame TBC and all the JVC video processing circuits. The VHS picture quality is the best I've seen. I suppose some of the professional broadcast machines from Panasonic and JVC might be a little better, but they are quite large and heavy (and really expensive).

[BrainStorm69]

So these JVC's arent worth the hype?

I wouldn't say that. They can work wonders with some older tapes. What I'm saying is that sometimes the source may be so bad that even the JVC's TBC can't really fix it.

[junkmalle]

it looks like you might have your fields reversed in those caps.

Looks to me like they've been deinterlaced with a blend filter.

Brent212, I recommend you turn off the blend deinterlacing that the Hauppauge MPEG drivers perform by default. Then you'll see what the captures really look like. You can find information on how to do this at:

http://www.cask-of-amontillado.com/htpc.html

See the "PVR 250/350 tips and tricks" section.

And while your at it you may want to play around with the temporal noise filtering the PVR 250 does by default. You can use this little utility:

http://www.shspvr.com/download/hcwpp2ut.zip

I turn the filter off. But I rarely capture VHS.

[vhelp]

@ Brent212, my friend

..that's exactly what *I* get w/ my commercial movie, "Jeepers Creepers"
in my JVC S-VHS HR-S3910U deck w/out any *gizmoes* connected in
between. But, depending on what I use, even my TBC-100 gives this top
portion that "swirl" effect. (drives me nuts)
.
I blame this on Macrovision (MV) because that is what it is (IMO) Only MV
causes issues. Because they are commercially done. So, they add in a
little MV, but there are several variations of MV that use, and they will
incorporate one of them in the tape transfer. That tape that you bought
off ebay, might have ben a copy from another vcr, but the MV went along
for the ride.
I managed to get a good reproduction, but w/out the "swirl" at the top,
using the ADS 's DVD Xpress (hardware mpeg1/2 unit) on this same tape
w/out any TBS's or any other device for that matter.
It's only $77 at Wal-Mart. Might be worth a try, if the things that
junkmalle posted does not work, in addition to the VCR settings too.
I've made a post about this unit, but I'l reframe from posting it here
because I don't want to sound like I'm selling it Search for yourself
if it turns out you want to know any more. But, I suspect you wont.
Good luck.

@ BrainStorm69

My vcr (see above) includes:
* Video Calibration - ON
* Picture Control - EDIT

My question is.. What is the purpose of the Picture Control's param
of EDIT used for ?? ..my options are: Auto/Edit/Soft/Sharp
and what do each one do ??

Thanks,
-vhelp

[BrainStorm69]

@Brent212 - I would listen to junkmalle since he seems to have some experience with your capture card.

@ BrainStorm69

My vcr (see above) includes:
* Video Calibration - ON
* Picture Control - EDIT

My question is.. What is the purpose of the Picture Control's param
of EDIT used for ?? ..my options are: Auto/Edit/Soft/Sharp
and what do each one do ??

From my JVC manual:

PICTURE CONTROL

AUTO (NORM): Normally select this. Picture quality is adjusted automatically. When “VIDEO CALIBRATION” is “OFF”, “NORM” will appear instead of “AUTO”.

EDIT: Minimizes picture degradation during editing (recording and playback).

SOFT: Reduces image coarseness when viewing overplayed tapes
containing much noise.

SHARP: Clearer, sharper-edged picture when viewing images with much flat, same-colored surfaces such as cartoons.

I found through experimentation that I actually got the best detail from VHS tapes using the settings I posted above.

[Brent212]

Also, I find with my HR-S9900U that I get the best detail out of VHS tapes by using the following settings:

Video Calibration - ON
Picture Control - EDIT
Digital R3 - ON
TBC/DNR - ON

I thought EDIT mode was only good for minimizing tape degradation, not maximizing picture quality. At least that's what it seems to indicate in the manual.

Hope that helps, but your source may be so bad that even the JVC can't help it. The only time I ever experienced a jittery picture with my JVC is when I tried capping a VHS-C tape from my camcorder using one of those adapters. In that instance some of my other vcrs did do a better job.

Actually, this source isn't all that bad. The picture quality might be, but I don't think the tape is severly worn. I have many brand new videos that look just as bad. The quality in skate videos just isn't very high, due to crappy video cameras, etc. I think vhelp might be right about that top portion being caused by macrovision, because even several tapes that were brand new, right out of the wrapper, had that problem.

Basically, since the TBC causes more problems (jittery video) than it fixes (that swirling, possibly MV, effect at the top), the only benefit I can see the JVC offering is a good picture. But, in my opinion anyway, the Sharp offers a better picture. So I get no benefit from keeping the JVC. One thing that I find interesting that no one commented on is that the noise reduction on the JVC is pretty much unnoticeable (at least to me). Can anyone else say that one of the two 9911 pics above looks better than the other (aside from the top of the frame being fixed)?

Looks to me like they've been deinterlaced with a blend filter.

Brent212, I recommend you turn off the blend deinterlacing that the Hauppauge MPEG drivers perform by default. Then you'll see what the captures really look like. You can find information on how to do this at:

I'm capturing simply so I can author and burn dvd's for viewing on a standalone player, so the decoding performed on my computer isn't really important to me, although it would be nice to have the video look better while testing it on the computer. It's funny, when I first got the hauppauge and played one of the .mpg's after capping, I was pissed that it looked so bad, due to the interlacing effects. I didn't realize that they would disappear when played on an interlaced display. I was very relieved when I burned a disc and watched it on my TV. It was like night and day.


Luckily pcmall.com seems to have decent customer service, because they are letting me return the unit with no "restocking fee" or any other bs charge. All I have to do is pay to ship it back. And there was free shipping when I bought it, so even if they had a policy of not refunding shipping charges that wouldn't matter in this case. So I guess if anyone is still thinking about buying the 9911, I'd recommend getting it from pcmall, as it's only $250 (same price as ecost.com but there you have to pay for shipping).

I went ahead and ordered an AVT-8710. Hopefully that will get rid of the problem at the top of the frame while introducing the jitters that the TBC on the JVC did.

[quickpick]

So I guess if anyone is still thinking about buying the 9911, I'd recommend getting it from pcmall, as it's only $250 (same price as ecost.com but there you have to pay for shipping).

I just checked on their website and it's listed for $375:
http://www.pcmall.com/pcmall/shop/detail.asp?dpno=594984

Did you get some kind of deal? I am interested in this unit, and would be delighted to find it for $250. Thanks!

[Brent212]

Here's a link:

http://www.pcmall.com/pcmall/shop/detail.asp?dpno=436971&store=pcmall&source=pwbfroogl...ail,pwbfroogle

This one is refurbished. Maybe the one you were looking at was new.

[junkmalle]

Reconditioned HR-S9911U $250:

http://www.pcmall.com/pcmall/search/search.asp?search=S9911U&submit1=Find&NavID_Search...=1&incimage=on

[quickpick]

Thank you for the replies.

[Wile_E]

It's amazing how so many people on here blame their VCR for the poor quality captures, when indeed it is Macrovision. I have the JVC-HRS9911U, and it's the best VCR I've ever owned. I have no problems capturing anything, but then again, none of my tapes have macrovision! I'm not trying to copy, protected tapes, only home movies!

I've played around with the AUTO/Soft/Sharp/Edit filters and this is what I've concluded. Here is how to easily switch settings and see the difference:
1. Pause tape on a frame.
2. Select Menu button, and switch the option to a different setting, (Sharp/Soft/Edit).
3. Then press Menu to see the frame. It still shows previous filter setting.
4. While the frame is still paused, press the right cursor key on the bottom of the remote, which will forward one frame. This will engage the new setting (Sharp/Soft/Edit). You should be able to see the difference. After selecting Play, it usually takes one second for the filter to take affect.

Edit - Plays back the tape without any filters, just like a standard VCR. You will see grain and noise.
Soft - Slightly softens the image, and gets rid of a lot of noise/grain. I use it for some of my tapes that have a lot of noise/grain.
Sharp - It seems to affect the color gradation and make colors look flat (similar to how computers used to have 256 color pallette, 8-bit). It's actually not that bad, but people's faces tend to look "plastic" or shiny to me.
Auto - Best setting, IMO, for most tapes.

I can't believe people can't see the difference that a TBC makes. The JVC only has a line TBC, not full-frame, but still it makes a difference in stabilizing the picture. Have you tried switching it on or off while the video is playing? It gets rid of a lot of the wavy, jitter in my video tapes.

The jitter effect is particularly noticeable in parts of the videos where there's just text on the screen, standing still in one spot. With the TBC/NR on, it jumps around constantly, whereas with it off the text remains stable.

This effect is probably dot-crawl. All interlaced TV's have this.

gshelley61, your JVC SR-W5U is not even in the same price bracket as the regular JVC VCR's. It's price is about $4000 !!! So it better have the best picture.

[gshelley61]

gshelley61, your JVC SR-W5U is not even in the same price bracket as the regular JVC VCR's. It's price is about $4000 !!! So it better have the best picture.

Yes, true enough. However, I got mine used from a guy who didn't know much about it and wasn't sure if all the functions worked... $150 :P

I know, I'm a very lucky S.O.B.

[Brent212]

It's amazing how so many people on here blame their VCR for the poor quality captures, when indeed it is Macrovision. I have the JVC-HRS9911U, and it's the best VCR I've ever owned. I have no problems capturing anything, but then again, none of my tapes have macrovision! I'm not trying to copy, protected tapes, only home movies!

I can't believe people can't see the difference that a TBC makes. The JVC only has a line TBC, not full-frame, but still it makes a difference in stabilizing the picture. Have you tried switching it on or off while the video is playing? It gets rid of a lot of the wavy, jitter in my video tapes.

I don't think I was clear with my point - none of my disappointment in the vcr has to do with macrovision. It has to do with 1) the TBC actually CAUSING the picture to be jittery, 2) no improvement (that I can see) with the noise reduction on, and 3) the picture quality (using any of the settings) being not as good, IMO, as my cheap Sharp vcr produces.

The jitter effect is particularly noticeable in parts of the videos where there's just text on the screen, standing still in one spot. With the TBC/NR on, it jumps around constantly, whereas with it off the text remains stable.

This effect is probably dot-crawl. All interlaced TV's have this.

Like I said before, this "dot-crawl" effect is completely NOT there when the TBC is turned off. Also, I've never even connected the JVC to a television (just my computer's capture card). The JVC does an awesome job at keeping the picture very stable with the TBC turned OFF. However, then the (possibly) macrovision-caused problem at the top of the frame shows up, so it's a lose-lose situation.

Also, I'd like to add that maybe I just got a defective unit, with a TBC that doesn't function well and a worse picture than normally produced by other 9911's.

[Leoslocks]

maybe I just got a defective unit, with a TBC that doesn't function well and a worse picture than normally produced by other 9911's.

I was thinking this myself when realizing it is a 'reburbished' model. I have been watching your ordeal in deciding to buy the vcr and then not getting any effective results. In the meanwhile, I lost out on an HRS-7600 on eBay. My bid maxed out at $180 and lost it late on the day of sale.

I am interested in the AVT-8710 also. Let us know in this post how it works.

[Bob W]

I have an AVT-8710 which works just fine.

[Brent212]

Ok, I got the AVT-8710 yesterday and so far I am (of course) unimpressed. Basically, it's effect is completely unnoticeable. Now maybe that's because I actually don't have any macrovision problems at all and that's where it would be useful.

I have discovered a couple of things though, not solely related to the 8710.

One is that YES! the EDIT setting on the JVC 9911 is what I was looking for! Why did I assume that AUTO was what I wanted? EDIT produces a very similar, if not better picture to that of my Sharp vcr. Awesome. I'm having second thoughts about sending back the JVC.

Another is that I figured out how to correct the interlacing problem with my screen captures seen in the previous pics. I'm using media player classic, and I had the deinterlacing method set to "Auto", which I think selected "Blend" for the stuff that I'm playing. I switched it to "Bob" and it looks much better. "Weave" wasn't very good either.

Here are a bunch of new pics. Again, I think the best way to compare them is to put them all in a directory and open them in a viewer that allows you to switch between them by pressing something like "page up" and "page down", because if you just look at them side by side you probably won't notice any difference.

JVC HR-S9911U, S-Video, Digital TBC/NR OFF


JVC HR-S9911U, S-Video, Digital TBC/NR ON


Sharp VC-H972, Composite


The tape is brand new, so I don't think the TBC had much affect, so I mainly did this comparison to see just what the noise reduction on the 9911 did. It seems to darken the picture some. The only positive thing I can see is that the text (particullarly the bottom-middle part of the y's) is slightly sharper, or at least, the lines aren't so blurred together. At first I thought hands down the Sharp version was better than both 9911's, although not by much. The white on the Sharp is much whiter, which is good, but then I noticed that the edges have more noise, easily noticeable in the text on the right side of the last "y".

Here's where I discovered the wonderful EDIT setting on the JVC.

JVC HR-S9911U, S-Video, Digital TBC/NR ON, Picture Control: Auto


JVC HR-S9911U, S-Video, Digital TBC/NR ON, Picture Control: EDIT


JVC HR-S9911U, S-Video, Digital TBC/NR OFF, Picture Control: EDIT


Sharp VC-H972, Composite


I really like the last three. With the 9911 picture control set to AUTO, it sucks, IMO. It's blurry when it doesn't need to be. It might look better that way at first glance, but if you do the thing I suggested where you switch cycle through the images in an image viewer, it's like putting on glasses when going from the AUTO picture to the EDIT picture (I think I made that analogy in my first comparison). Maybe there are some situations when the AUTO setting is preferable, but I like it much better in EDIT mode. It's very close to the Sharp, and I really couldn't say which I like better - the Sharp or the JVC in EDIT mode.

This is where my dilemma comes in: All four of the previous pics came from caps with the AVT-8710 hooked up inbetween the vcr and computer. So obviously it doesn't help eliminate that "tearing" effect at the top of the frame at all. So if the 8710 DOES handle macrovision, is it safe to assume that's not caused by macrovision? The JVC 9911's TBC does eliminate it, however, at the cost of jittery, almost unwatchable video.

I guess it was an error in judgement on my part to assume that the 8710 would fix the tearing. Since the 9911's TBC is not full frame and does the job, I thought a full frame TBC would do the job also, and hopefully better. I know the JVC is a line TBC, so maybe only line TBC's can fix this kind of tearing effect.

So I'll try out the 8710 some more this weekend, but I'm fairly certain it is going to be completely useless for me, especially considering the following pics:

Sharp VC-H972, Composite


Sharp VC-H972, Composite, using AVT-8710
(Sharp<composite>8710<composite>capture card)


Sharp VC-H972, S-Video, using AVT-8710
(Sharp<composite>8710<S-Video>capture card)


Notice that the two pics where the 8710 was used have the "flagging" effect at the top left side of the frame! It's actually adding to the problem rather than fixing it!

The 8710 seems to clean up the picture a little bit, but it's hardly noticeable, except maybe in the bottom right corner where the yellow and red seem to blur together a little bit more without the 8710. I just threw in the S-Video pic to see the difference between using an S-Video cable from the 8710 vs. a composite cable. The S-Video is slightly darker, but there's not much improvement, IMO.

I did read one message before buying the AVT-8710 where someone said it's just a glorified picture enhancer, but I was hoping that wasn't so. However, with the three videos I've tested it on, it has provided no significant improvement. Actually the only way I could even slightly detect its presence is in the one video (pictured above) where it created the flagging effect in the top left corner.

Maybe I'm just expecting too much from a TBC. I've never had any experience with one until the JVC 9911 arrived. Do TBC's basically do nothing unless the video is really screwed up? That wouldn't make sense because the first video at the top IS really screwed up and the 8710 still did nothing. And to add to my confusion, the 9911 DID do something, just not as well as I'd hoped. The next step in my never-ending quest to get that first video to playback with the best possible quality is to return the 8710 and get a DataVideo TBC-1000. Before I do that, I'd really like someone with experience with either macrovision, the TBC-1000, or both to answer these two questions:

1) Is that tearing effect, that takes up the entire top part of the frame, macrovision?

2) Is it possible that the TBC-1000 can fix it? (remember that the 9911's TBC did fix it, but added a lot of jitter)

Thanks for any comments or help.

[BrainStorm69]

Is the tape jittery if you connect the 9911 straight to your TV and play it with the TBC on? Have you tried playing your capture with another software player, say PowerDVD, to see if the same effect happens? Sometimes different players handle things differently, and the same "problem" doesn't occur when playing the capture with another software player. It is possible that maybe there isn't really a problem with the JVC at all.

[vhelp]

From previous post I made above ...

My vcr (see above) includes:
* Video Calibration - ON
* Picture Control - EDIT

@ Wile_E

Auto - Best setting, IMO, for most tapes.

I couldn't agree more

And my conclusions thus far ...

After playing around with the settings that you recommended, but on *MY* vcr,
I got different results. Actually, they made things much worse for my VHS tapes
while playing. It made the video jumpy
.
However, here's what I have, for smoth video:

* Video Calibration = ON
* Picture Control = Auto
* Video Stabilizer = ON

Everything else, made the video unpredictable for my needs (specially for
my capturing projects)

Using the above for my JVC S-VHS HR-S3910U and my DVD Xpress box,
I get a very nice picture reproduction.., though I had to use a TBC-100
device with this. The pic on page 2 is direct, from the Xpress box, and
no TBC. That movie has MV on it, color fades to B/W when used w/ Xpress.
Anyways. You can visit this thread I started on this device for your info,
and view the pic (page 2) to see the picture quality. Very good, IMO.

* ADS DVD Xpress - My experience so far.

-vhelp

[lordsmurf]

Do not view video on a capture card or computer. View it on a tv set to see how well the VCR fixes the tape. Then introduce it to the computer and cards. Remove variables before making judgment calls.

The error seen with the tearing at the top of an image is almost always due to a bad tape. Homemade or otherwise.

A TBC is for sync problems, timing issues. It has nothing to do with "cleaning" a picture. It stabilizes and corrects the raw signal, nothing more. The side effect is often "cleaning" but that's not it's function. It will most likely NOT correct that tearing issue.

I come from a stance of clean signal vs all else. I can already tell you value sharpness over that of cleanliness. I would suggest you use AUTO or SOFT, and then if sharpness is a big deal, buy a detailer (Vidicraft, SignVideo, etc) to restore sharpness to the now-clean signal (as done by JVC filters). You can also try the (weak) R3 on the JVC.

The VCR may be out of alignment (shipping can do this), or the tape may have been made on misaligned equipment. Likely causes.

A SHARP VCR is a good VCR. It is .... different.... than many others. It performs and reacts differently to tapes. In some cases, yes, it can play better than the JVC. This is why I still have two SHARP VCRs in my collection.

[trock]

I've been following this thread with a lot of interest since I ordered a 9911 last week and it arrived a couple of days ago.

I had a VHS tape that no matter what I did would drop frames and cause a jittery effect when captured, no matter the capture hardware or software and even when using the TBC-1000.

I played the same tape in the 9911 and was still dropping frames but then I added the TBC-1000 to the chain and instantly went to zero dropped frames and perfect captures from my previously uncapturable tape.

So, in this instance the 9911 made a big difference but only when being used with the TBC-1000.

trock

[lordsmurf]

I've been following this thread with a lot of interest since I ordered a 9911 last week and it arrived a couple of days ago.

I had a VHS tape that no matter what I did would drop frames and cause a jittery effect when captured, no matter the capture hardware or software and even when using the TBC-1000.

I played the same tape in the 9911 and was still dropping frames but then I added the TBC-1000 to the chain and instantly went to zero dropped frames and perfect captures from my previously uncapturable tape.

So, in this instance the 9911 made a big difference but only when being used with the TBC-1000.

trock

This mirrors a lot of experiences. Mine included. Excellent combo of equipment.

[Brent212]

Is the tape jittery if you connect the 9911 straight to your TV and play it with the TBC on? Have you tried playing your capture with another software player, say PowerDVD, to see if the same effect happens? Sometimes different players handle things differently, and the same "problem" doesn't occur when playing the capture with another software player. It is possible that maybe there isn't really a problem with the JVC at all.

Yes, the tape is jittery when I connect the 9911 straight to my TV. It doesn't matter what it's connected to (I am aware that in SOME cases it does, but not in this one). With the 9911's TBC on, the output from the VCR is jittery, so the software player doesn't matter. Like I said, when I have it off, playing the same tape produces a completely stable output. Everything is observed in my capture software while capturing, and then again in a separate software player (media player classic) after capturing. I'm not saying it's a problem with the JVC, it's just a problem produced by the JVC with this particular tape.

I am very stoked that the JVC's TBC is able to remove the tearing effect. I'm just really bummed that it can't do it without causing the playback to get jittery. This is why it would seem that a better TBC could fix the tearing effect without adding the jitter, unless someone thinks it's actually the noise reduction that is fixing the tearing effect and not the TBC (not likely, IMO).

[Brent212]

Do not view video on a capture card or computer. View it on a tv set to see how well the VCR fixes the tape. Then introduce it to the computer and cards. Remove variables before making judgment calls.

Yes. I've done this already. Everything that I've mentioned has only had to do with the VCR (and AVT-8710 when included in the chain). I've only been comparing captures where the only variables have been the playback devices, so logically even if the capture card was causing a problem, it'd be doing to everything. But yes, I have tried just connecting the vcr to a tv and the nothing's different from what I see on my computer.

The error seen with the tearing at the top of an image is almost always due to a bad tape. Homemade or otherwise.

Oh yes, I know it's a bad tape. Once the same tearing problem appeared on three vcr's (the two jvc's and the sharp), I decided it was safe to consider it a problem tape.

A TBC is for sync problems, timing issues. It has nothing to do with "cleaning" a picture. It stabilizes and corrects the raw signal, nothing more. The side effect is often "cleaning" but that's not it's function. It will most likely NOT correct that tearing issue.

Yeah, I actually wasn't looking for any picture cleaning from the TBC. One of my disappointments with the JVC at first was the picture, because I hadn't used the EDIT setting. But the main thing I'm looking for is a way to correct the tearing issue. I don't think any picture cleaning will do that. The only reason I am asking if a TBC will do it is because the JVC's TBC does do it.

I come from a stance of clean signal vs all else. I can already tell you value sharpness over that of cleanliness. I would suggest you use AUTO or SOFT, and then if sharpness is a big deal, buy a detailer (Vidicraft, SignVideo, etc) to restore sharpness to the now-clean signal (as done by JVC filters). You can also try the (weak) R3 on the JVC.

I just like the picture that looks most like I think it originally did, before the tape got degraded and worn, and I think the EDIT function (in this case) produces a nice clear picture. Right now I'm much more concerned with smooth playback than picture quality anyways.

[Brent212]

Problem solved (sort of)!!

Using just the stabilizer on the 9911, and removing the AVT-8710 pretty much did what I wanted. The tearing issue was reduced significantly, although not as much as it was with the 9911's TBC on. But with the stabilizer active, the jittery effect wasn't present, so it was a compromise that I can live with. This is interesting because another tape that got "the jitters" from the 9911's TBC also got them from the stabilizer, so I assumed any time the TBC introduced jitter the stabilizer would also. Not true apparantly.

Funny thing is that the 8710 made the "tearing" cover a much larger portion of the screen. This is the second video that it's done that. I'm sending this thing back for sure.

The tearing is still there at the top, but I think, because of the overscan factor, it won't show up when played on a television set.

Here's a pic of what I decided to call it quits with:
JVC HR-S9911U, S-Video, Digital TBC/NR OFF, Picture Control: EDIT, Stabilzer ON


Not perfect, but very good, and most importantly - smooth motion.

So I think I'll stick with the 9911, considering the flexibility that it provides. I'll most likely be returning the 8710 unless I get some sign during the next few days of it actually doing something other than screwing up the video.

[lordsmurf]

I would grab the TBC-1000. It has a better reputation for preventing jitter. I use it because of this, and pretty much this reason alone.

[trock]

Having just got a 9911 I was interested in your different caps showing the different 9911 settings and I just did some myself showing the same cap using AUTO, EDIT, SHARP and SOFT. Considerable differences indeed:

http://www.cybertown.com/codecs/9911.html