Problems capturing with ATI TV Wonder VE card

[Melekal]

I recently purchase an ATI TV Wonder VE card to capture VHS so I could burn it to DVD. I've downloaded all the updated software and drivers so I'm running ATI's Multimedia Center version 9.1. I also read Lord Smurf's guide and tried to follow explicitly. There were only two problems I ran into.

First, I don't have the option to capture in 352 X 480 so just left it in 352 X 240. Second, and most important, it will not allow me to change the source when capturing. It says Progressive Scan and is greyed out so I can't change it. No matter what other options I choose to capture in all of them showed blocky images. I know the quality isn't going to be perfect coming from a VHS tape but it should be better than that. ATI's tech support weren't any help either as they had no idea why it wouldn't let me choose an interlaced source since I had the updated software and drivers.

The only reason I can think of for this problem is the fact that it will not let me choose to capture from an interlaced source. Anyone have any suggestions on this for me?

[thecoalman]

Many reccomend this driver for that card. It will allow you to capture in full resolution.

http://btwincap.sourceforge.net/

[Melekal]

Do you have any idea on what TV Tuner the ATI TV Wonder VE uses? I've tried a couple but none seem to work and I can't find any info on the card or box.

[Gregg]

Hi,
There's a paper sticker on top of the tuner /that small metall enclosure/ where you can find the model number. I think the tuner is Philips NTSC_M MKII.
Good luck!

[Melekal]

Ok, I've tried just about every tuner on the list. The only ones that even come close to working are the phillips ones and they only give me audio. Are there any other suggestions on this problem? I'm still thinking it's because it will not let me capture interlaced but can't be sure.

[Suntan]

Mine took the Philips NTSC_M MKII as well. Although I do not believe that all of the Wonder VEs use this one. It should be on the sticker like Gregg said, but there is a lot of other stuff on the sticker so it might not be apparent.

Using the Philips NTSC_M MKII I had full function of everything except CC.

-Suntan

[lechtin]

I also have a TV Wonder card and use the drivers from sourceforge.net, VirtualVCR for capture, and MJPEG codecs. Works well, but you have to make sure you completely uninstall the ATI drivers/software before you try the alternatives. That may be the reason for your video problem. I also use the Philips tuner driver.

[Melekal]

That may be the problem. I tried just about all of them but didn't uninstall the ATI ones first. I also wonder if it may be because it is the Value Edition (VE) and they use some other type of cheaper tuner or something. Anyhow, I did write down everything that was on the actual card and the only thing that even looked close to any of the tuners was the Phillips one that was suggested.

[mpack]

First, I don't have the option to capture in 352 X 480 so just left it in 352 X 240. Second, and most important, it will not allow me to change the source when capturing. It says Progressive Scan and is greyed out so I can't change it. ... ATI's tech support weren't any help either as they had no idea why it wouldn't let me choose an interlaced source ...

Unless I'm missing something then the answer to your question is quite simple: an interlaced NTSC TV signal is 480 lines high. By choosing to capture only 240 lines you are implicitly telling the capture card to deinterlace, eg. by blending or throwing away the second field in each frame. You can't deinterlace and capture interlaced, so the option to do that is grayed out...

[Melekal]

That might be part of the problem. I mean the guide says to capture in 352X480 but that resolution isn't even an option when you go to capture it. I've been told by ATI tech support that this resolution wouldn't be the correct resolution for a normal television with the 4:3 thing and that the correct one would be 352X240. So that may have something to do with why it will not let me choose interlaced but no matter what resolution option I choose it still has the source greyed out.

[mpack]

I've been told by ATI tech support that this resolution wouldn't be the correct resolution for a normal television with the 4:3 thing and that the correct one would be 352X240.

If I were you I would stop talking to this ATI person, since that's twice now that he's told you complete b*$$*^ks.

You didn't (I hope) tell him that you were going to view at 352 by 480 on DVD, only that you were going to capture at that resolution. You would then correct the aspect ratio problem during the postprocessing described in Lordsmurfs guide.

The theory behind capping at 352x480 (or 352x576 in PAL areas) is that VHS has a lower definition than the original TV picture (whether this is true or not I don't know), so capping at the full horizontal TV resolution is just pointless in terms of quality, and it wastes disk space when capping.

I mean the guide says to capture in 352X480 but that resolution isn't even an option when you go to capture it.

Yes, just did a quick check on my (recent) copy of MMC, and find that it only gives you the option of picture sizes close to what you want for MPEG captures. It has always been a pain in the ass with various versions of ATI software apps that they offer a range of "standard settings" for some parameter, that doesn't include the setting you want. However, the underlying ATI drivers are more flexible than the UI software implies: in the past I've overcome the problem by using other (less restrictive) capping software, or by hacking the registry to add an additional present - especially in the case of adding a new cap size.

[lordsmurf]

That might be part of the problem. I mean the guide says to capture in 352X480 but that resolution isn't even an option when you go to capture it. I've been told by ATI tech support that this resolution wouldn't be the correct resolution for a normal television with the 4:3 thing and that the correct one would be 352X240. So that may have something to do with why it will not let me choose interlaced but no matter what resolution option I choose it still has the source greyed out.

Don't listen to ATI. They already shipped the software with retarded video settings. I can't imagine the kind of advice they'd give to back it up.

The card will not choose interlace because ATI chooses to select a driver based on a max x240 resolution, and instills these limits in ATI MMC.

You've got to find a way around it. It's just a crappy BT8x8 card anyway, one of many I suggest people NOT buy.

ATI and ATI MMC are great ... with an ATI AIW card (or any Theatre-based chipset).

[Melekal]

Thanks for the info guys. After so many problems with it I just got done with bringing it back to get a refund. For three reasons I've decided to just get a standalone VHS to DVD recorder combo drive. First, I've already got a decent graphics card I can't justify replacing at this time. Second, all I wanted to do was capture VHS to DVD. And third, I wasn't sure if this was something I would encounter with every capture card I was going to get. Now I just have to decide which DVD recorder is best. But I've already got a post in that forum for that question. Thanks for all the info though. I don't think I've ever found a better collection of knowledge on the subject.

[mpack]

Thanks for the info guys. After so many problems with it I just got done with bringing it back to get a refund.

I have to say that I'm sorry you gave up on it. Yes, working around ATI presets can be a pain in the ass, but it's easy once you've worked out how to do it once.

I also hadn't realised you were talking about a capture card, not an All-in-Wonder card (my fault: didn't read closely enough). If you go down this road again I would strongly recommend getting an all in one card: it's the only way to guarantee that the capture and preview functions will work as an integrated whole (I won't go into the technical arguments now).

Myself, I would worry about being unable to clean up or edit (eg. to remove ads) from the video you capture with a standalone drive. But, if it works for you then good luck to you!

[thecoalman]

I also hadn't realised you were talking about a capture card, not an All-in-Wonder card (my fault: didn't read closely enough). If you go down this road again I would strongly recommend getting an all in one card: it's the only way to guarantee that the capture and preview functions will work as an integrated whole .

For capturing TV sure why not worked good for me, Capturing VHS with the AIW is whole other ballgame. Unless you have a near perfect source be prepared to invest into additional hardware (tbc or video stabilizer) to clean the source before it gets to the AIW. I can't comment on the opld ones but I had a AIW 9800 pro and there was no way of getting around the false MV detection when capping old vhs movies.

[mpack]

Capturing VHS with the AIW is whole other ballgame. Unless you have a near perfect source be prepared to invest into additional hardware (tbc or video stabilizer) to clean the source before it gets to the AIW.

Well, I can't say if you are right or wrong about that. I've used just about every model of the All-In-Wonder family that has been made since 1998 (we use them at work), and the only problem (of this sort) I ever had was on old degraded or worn tapes. This was nothing whatever to do with Macrovision (IMHO: that particular illness is overdiagnosed on this site).

I do regret that the ATI card doesn't have a built in TBC - but I suppose that would have made it a more expensive card.

I have in fact bought myself a separate TBC to use when digitizing those old tapes, but I think there are advantages to having the TBC separate: eg. I can still use it after I next change my capture card!

[thecoalman]

Have you tried any of the newer cards? I could be wrong but because of the extensive amount of different things I tried I think that is exactly the problem. Let me point out that with my test tape I was able to capture it flawlessly with a cheap Leadtek 2000xp. The only difference between the two was the capture card. I also experienced a similar problem with a Nvidia based VIVO card which was alleviated by using older drivers which from what I have read have no MV detection.

I have a webpage that goes into detail if you want to read it. http://www.nepadigital.com/mv/

[mpack]

Have you tried any of the newer cards? I could be wrong but because of the extensive amount of different things I tried I think that [Macrovision] is exactly the problem.

Yes, I've used all of the recent ATI AIW cards at work, but it would be fair to say that none of them gets the sort of intensive and varied use that my own AIW card at home gets - so I can't say anything categorical about them...

For home use I made the mistake of buying a budget PC that seemed high enough spec on the store shelf, but when I took it home it turned out not to have an AGP slot... (AGP graphics were integrated onto m/b) I could have kicked myself for forgetting to check that! This meant that I was restricted to PCI versions of the AIW family, so basically my home PC uses an AIW design which is maybe a couple of years old.

However, I can say that I've had this excessive dropped frame problem with my home PC, and the cause was old tapes, not Macrovision. An AIW card at work (a more recent design!) had previously captured sections of the same tape with no problem!

Also, I know the effects of Macrovision when I see it. I once taped a pay-per-view broadcast and tried watching it later. It was like I was watching it through a series of randomly selected colored filters...

Basically, I think that if the capture card can show you a seemingly stable preview window, then the source isn't Macrovisioned. With a capture card there's no way that could work unless you had a video stabilizer in the loop. If you get lots of dropped frames from this apparantly stable source then the cause is intermittent sync problems, fixed with a TBC.

[thecoalman]

Also, I know the effects of Macrovision when I see it. I once taped a pay-per-view broadcast and tried watching it later. It was like I was watching it through a series of randomly selected colored filters...

Basically, I think that if the capture card can show you a seemingly stable preview window, then the source isn't Macrovisioned. .

It's my understandinf that there is different types of MV. When trying to capture a MV protected tape with the AIW the frames skip, it really doesn't drop frames as the frames that do work will be in sync. You also get a flashing from across the video.

This flashing appears on the home movie without MV, even in the preview window. Again it doesn't drop any frames but it makes the video unusable. This won't appear on a normal VCR to TV connection nor is it visible on a cheaper Leadtek 2000xp or a Nvidia VIOVO based card using drivers that are MV free.

My only conclusion is that it is false MV detection on the AIW part.

[mpack]

It's my understanding that there is different types of MV. When trying to capture a MV protected tape with the AIW the frames skip, it really doesn't drop frames as the frames that do work will be in sync.

I believe you are right in thinking there are two variations on Macrovision, my vague recollection is that one variation plays with the sync signals, the other plays with the "black lines" that are part of the frame but not part of the image - these lines are there to let the TV compensate for drift in signal levels I think. So, if you mess with the black levels the black level compensation goes nuts. I can't remember why this is a particular problem for VCRs... perhaps the VCR saves space by performing the compensation and then discarding the black lines. I don't know why this black level trick isn't a problem for a TV!

All of a sudden I'm not sure about any of this, but it is my understanding that the sync variant is a special problem for capture cards because they work completely different from a TV. In a TV the sync signals in the video drive the TV electronics directly, whereas in a capture card the electronics are driven by a system clock, and the TV signal is sampled at regular intervals of the same clock. The capture card hates it if the video signals are not regular. This ought to affect preview just as much as capture, so I would expect the stuttery frame rate to be visible on the preview. If you don't see that, eg. if the dropped frame rate is as infrequent as (say) 1 every few minutes, then I would suspect that to be due to a poor quality signal (from a worn VHS tape) and not Macrovision.

I vaguely recall having a problem with an ATI card giving terrible preview and capture results because of false Macrovision detection - but that was several years ago, it causes "smearing" of the video on the screen, and it was fixed by downloading a new driver.

Where does this get us? I dunno - I still think that folks on this site are too ready to shout "Macrovision!" when they should be recommending a TBC instead.

[thecoalman]

Where does this get us? I dunno - I still think that folks on this site are too ready to shout "Macrovision!" when they should be recommending a TBC instead.

I think false MV detection is the root of the problem for both of the cards I was using. The best point I can make is with the Nvidia based card. It captured perfectly with an old driver that has no MV detection (at least this is what I have read) and had trouble with the newest driver which had MV detection. TBC's are recommened all the time to correct this and do but it doesn't fix the root of the problem which in my opinion is false MV detection.