For a good laugh, read this

[gitreel]

Tools To Copy DVDs Abound, So Do Ethics Issues

By Dave Wilson
07/12/04 4:40 PM PT

It typically takes four to eight hours to copy a DVD movie onto a hard drive. The copied data can take up a great deal of space, from 2 gigabytes to 8 gigabytes, though many tools can compress the raw data into a gigabyte or so as a way of saving space at the cost of a slightly degraded picture or sound. By way of comparison, the typical hard drive in a laptop computer today averages 60 gigabytes.

While the film industry has forced 321 Studios, a U.S. company, to stop selling software that can copy Hollywood movies sold on DVDs, its success may be limited. Purveyors of software tools that can do the same thing, sometimes better, are flourishing on the Internet and the wares are often free.

The availability and apparently widespread use of such tools is fostering debate about the legality and the ethical implications of such copying by individual consumers including people who copy DVDs onto a computer to avoid carrying a disc while they travel, or to keep children from damaging the originals who do not distribute copies of the DVD as pirates do.
The free copying tools are available through Internet sites that are not directly subject to American law, often because the countries that those sites call home permit individuals to copy material for their own use.

Author Search
People seeking such tools need only pose the question in an Internet search engine to find dozens of sites devoted to the subject. One is the Afonic DVD Guides site (www.dvd-guides.com), run by Joseph Chatzimichail, a 20-year-old electrical and computer engineering student in Salonika, Greece.

The site draws about 100,000 visitors each month, Chatzimichail said, most of them looking for advice on what tools to use, where to get them the site does not carry such tools and how to use them. He and the others who help manage the message boards on the site have no tolerance for pirates, he said.
"Many people ask how to copy rented DVDs or how to convert downloaded movies to DVD, and of course they are informed that it is illegal and the thread is closed," Chatzimichail said. "Personally I believe that a user should be able to back up a DVD he owns. I don't understand why movies should be different than other media, like audio CDs; it is obviously the same thing."

Court Rulings
Photocopying a magazine article or recording a television broadcast on a VCR is generally considered legal under the fair-use provision of U.S. copyright law. In the electronic realm, however, it may be illegal for individuals in the United States to circumvent any anti-piracy measures that might be used to prevent copying material on something like a DVD.

Film studios have successfully argued that three programs sold by 321 Studios violated the Digital Millen-nium Copyright Act of 1998, which forbids the distribution or use of any program that cracks digital copyright-protection systems, whether or not the ultimate purpose is illegal. This year a series of legal rulings forced 321 Studios to remove the copying software from the market.
The U.S. District Court judge in one case, Susan Illston of San Francisco, was unswayed by arguments that users of the company's products did not routinely engage in piracy or otherwise damage the market for DVD movies.

Copying DVDs
"It is the technology itself at issue, not the uses to which the copyrighted material may be put," she wrote in her opinion. Before the software from 321 Studios was withdrawn from the market, a million people had paid for its DVD-copying programs, according to the company.

The programs had become popular partly because making a copy of a DVD with the free tools available on the Internet was until recently a demanding task. The 321 programs automated the process, making it easy for even nontechnical users; some of the free tools available on the Internet do likewise, automatically synchronizing the audio track with the images, for example. While copying tools are also available commercially, the quality, power and flexibility of the free tools on the Internet put those products to shame.
It typically takes four to eight hours to copy a DVD movie onto a hard drive. The copied data can take up a great deal of space, from 2 gigabytes to 8 gigabytes, though many tools can compress the raw data into a gigabyte or so as a way of saving space at the cost of a slightly degraded picture or sound. By way of comparison, the typical hard drive in a laptop computer today averages 60 gigabytes.

Big DVD Collection
Once copied onto a hard drive, the material can be also copied onto a recordable DVD or even squeezed onto a recordable CD by using compression technologies, a task popular with parents concerned that curious hands will damage the original disc. Laptop users also copy a movie onto a hard drive to eliminate the need to power the machine's DVD drive, thereby preserving battery life.

One user of the 321 software, George Works, spends part of the year working as an electronic engineer for a company in Virginia. The rest of the year, when hurricanes are not a danger in the Caribbean, he and his wife spend their time on a sailboat, which has a DVD player.
"We have a big DVD collection, and we've invested a lot of money in them," he said. Rather than lug a large collection of movies between the places they call home twice a year and risk damage or theft, they started copying the discs and keeping the copies on the boat. Works says he does not think he is doing anybody any harm with this practice. "Obviously, we're only watching one at a time," he said.

Software for Duplicating DVDs
Still, the film industry argues that software for duplicating encrypted DVDs should be outlawed. "If everybody was a good citizen and used it for benign purposes, you'd have no problem," said Jack Valenti, president of the Motion Picture Association of America. "But if you let one person circumvent the encryption, you have to let everyone. What about the person who is not so benign?"

The association argues that the only way to prevent people from using such tools in an illegal way is to make the tools themselves illegal.
Representative Rick Boucher, Democrat of Virginia, rejects that premise as "hogwash." He has introduced legislation intended to promote the availability of DVD-copying tools designed primarily for legitimate consumer use, and to extend fair-use provisions of copyright law to consumers who break anti-copying protection.

"Because a hammer can be used to break a window, and a burglar can use a hammer, outlaw the hammer that's the philosophy," he said of Hollywood's position. "But historically we have never outlawed technology that was capable of legitimate use. If the technology has bad uses, then punish the people who use it wrongfully. Don't outlaw the technology."

Obviously he has never ripped a dvd, because it does not take four to eight hours.

[888888]

I'm sure it's possible, depending on your computer and what software you use.

[Tommyknocker]

Obviously he has never ripped a dvd, because it does not take four to eight hours.

Maybe it took him four to eight hours. He could have kept trying to record on the label side.

[ViRaL1]

Mayhe their rip speed is locked at .2x.

[indolikaa]

The dumbass spelled 'warez' wrong...

[johns0]

Who cares if he made a few minor mistakes in the article,at least he is for fair use in dvd copying and encoding which is what we are about.

[stiltman]

Who cares if he made a few minor mistakes in the article,at least he is for fair use in dvd copying and encoding which is what we are about.

You speak for use all?

[Shocker Milwaukee]

Stiltman, you must've missed the election. We elected johns0 as videohelp spokesman in a landslide.

[stiltman]

Stiltman, you must've missed the election. We elected johns0 as videohelp spokesman in a landslide.

I'm gonna go complain to Baldrick, damn it!
I'm tired of being left out of these decissions

[jimmalenko]

It typically takes four to eight hours to copy a DVD movie onto a hard drive.

..If you you have a DVD Drive locked at ½X

The programs had become popular partly because making a copy of a DVD with the free tools available on the Internet was until recently a demanding task

...for the average person.

The 321 programs automated the process, making it easy for even nontechnical users; some of the free tools available on the Internet do likewise, automatically synchronizing the audio track with the images, for example. While copying tools are also available commercially, the quality, power and flexibility of the free tools on the Internet put those products to shame.

Keep up the good work, freeware developers

"Because a hammer can be used to break a window, and a burglar can use a hammer, outlaw the hammer that's the philosophy," he said of Hollywood's position. "But historically we have never outlawed technology that was capable of legitimate use. If the technology has bad uses, then punish the people who use it wrongfully. Don't outlaw the technology."

Exactly. Don't release CD burners and later DVD burners commercially. Use different types of media for storage and movie distribution. Someone will still find a way, but it will be a helluva lot harder.

[rfielder]

Exactly. Don't release CD burners and later DVD burners commercially. Use different types of media for storage and movie distribution. Someone will still find a way, but it will be a helluva lot harder.

Isn't there something......wrong......when the companies who wish to block the sale of DVD copying software are also the same companies who sell DVD burners, and manufacture and sell blank DVDs?

Such as Sony.

It is either ironic, or hypocritical, but in either case, it sucks.

If they got their collective industrial heads out of the a** and let some sun shine onto their alleged thinking facilities, they might realize that they are sitting on an absolute gold mine, if they just let us PAY for the stuff at a reasonable rate!

They don't want to sell movies. They want to sell lots and lots of plastic disks. They only like movies because it makes those plastic disks seem like they are worth more than when the same plastic disk is full of music.

If they let go of the need to sell a hard product, and decided to market their intellectual property at a fair price, they would be soooo much further ahead.

And richer.

Lots, lots, LOTS richer.

[Tommyknocker]

Stiltman, you must've missed the election. We elected johns0 as videohelp spokesman in a landslide.

And Florida's Secretary of State counted all the ballots so there would be contoversies.

[overloaded_ide]

Representative Rick Boucher, Democrat of Virginia, rejects that premise as "hogwash." He has introduced legislation intended to promote the availability of DVD-copying tools designed primarily for legitimate consumer use, and to extend fair-use provisions of copyright law to consumers who break anti-copying protection.

"Because a hammer can be used to break a window, and a burglar can use a hammer, outlaw the hammer that's the philosophy," he said of Hollywood's position. "But historically we have never outlawed technology that was capable of legitimate use. If the technology has bad uses

Must be up for re-election this year!
Well, if he is serious about our rights, I may just register to vote up there this year! Is he worth a darned for anything else though?

If not I might as well stay home and vote here. It's so nice to have freedom of choice.

[holistic]

I found it to be an intresting no biased read.

Intresting how a few of you picked up on this :

It typically takes four to eight hours to copy a DVD movie onto a hard drive.

Take a look out on the forums, you are a minority. The majority ARE CLUELESS - thus they ask.
There are plenty that still ( recently infact ) ask how to 'rip' a DVD with CD players.
Others are lost on the concept of compression ,and yet more should just stick with playing freecell.

Making DVD's is a skill (and i say SKILL) that is not learned overnight. It takes years to master and understand.
If you don't have a good working knowledge of mpeg compression know or what a *.vob file is or how a DVD is structured then even the simplist "point N click" programs like DVDShrink will still be confusing.

][

[888888]

Making DVD's is a skill (and i say SKILL) that is not learned overnight. It takes years to master and understand.

Are you serious or are you being sarcastic? There are such good guides out there that people can learn everything they need to know in less than a week.

[holistic]

YES, very serious - I said making DVD's not copying DVD's
There is distinct a difference.

There are such good guides out there that people can learn everything they need to know in less than a week.

Hmm intresting - yes lots of very good guides indeed. Can you explain the constant influx of retarded questions.? Seems people cannot learn everything they need to know in less than a week.

Sure you have it figured out, but given a better (bigger ) sampling there is a very low percentage of those who can copy a DVD, let alone make one from 'scratch'. That is why this site florishes. If all was learned in a week from 'guides', nothing would be needed here but the Off Topic and Polls. :P

][

[bravo]

YES, very serious - I said making DVD's not copying DVD's
There is distinct a difference.

There are such good guides out there that people can learn everything they need to know in less than a week.

Hmm intresting - yes lots of very good guides indeed. Can you explain the constant influx of retarded questions.? Seems people cannot learn everything they need to know in less than a week.

Sure you have it figured out, but given a better (bigger ) sampling there is a very low percentage of those who can copy a DVD, let alone make one from 'scratch'. That is why this site florishes. If all was learned in a week from 'guides', nothing would be needed here but the Off Topic and Polls. :P

][

I'll give you an example. I had never burned a DVD before. I read about twenty minutes on here. Got DVDshrink copied and burned with Nero. Took all of about three hours from beginning to end(that's including reading the info from this site).

[jimmalenko]

YES, very serious - I said making DVD's not copying DVD's
There is a distinct difference.

I'll give you an example. I had never burned a DVD before. I read about twenty minutes on here. Got DVDshrink copied and burned with Nero. Took all of about three hours from beginning to end(that's including reading the info from this site).

At any point did you bother to read what holistic wrote ?

You have just told us how you learnt to copy a DVD. THat's what DVDShrink does. holistic is talking about making a dvd. That is, obtaining your source, editing, encoding, authoring and finally burning. That's what I call making a DVD.

[jimmalenko]

Isn't there something......wrong......when the companies who wish to block the sale of DVD copying software are also the same companies who sell DVD burners, and manufacture and sell blank DVDs?

Such as Sony.

It is either ironic, or hypocritical, but in either case, it sucks.

I think the point that Sony and the like are trying to make is that CD and DVD should be used for data backup and archival purposes - this is certainly what they intended it to be for when they created it. They should just get the music and movie industries to choose a different media.

[bravo]

YES, very serious - I said making DVD's not copying DVD's
There is a distinct difference.

I'll give you an example. I had never burned a DVD before. I read about twenty minutes on here. Got DVDshrink copied and burned with Nero. Took all of about three hours from beginning to end(that's including reading the info from this site).

At any point did you bother to read what holistic wrote ?

You have just told us how you learnt to copy a DVD. THat's what DVDShrink does. holistic is talking about making a dvd. That is, obtaining your source, editing, encoding, authoring and finally burning. That's what I call making a DVD.

My mistake. Seeing how the topic was about copying DVDs i figured you guys were on topic. Making a DVD would take awhile longer although i still made my first one in less than a day using Ulead Moviefactory.

[freestyler]

instead of getting into semantics, why don't you just say DVD Authoring?

Care to define the realms of authoring? What separates the men from the boys?

[fritzi93]

Seeing how the topic was about copying DVDs i figured you guys were on topic. Making a DVD would take awhile longer although i still made my first one in less than a day using Ulead Moviefactory.

You're a helluva lot sharper than me, then. Seriously, though, how well did you understand the process at that point? Being able to follow a guide isn't quite the same. (Then again, that seems to be too difficult for some people.) :P

This is a small fraternity. As an example, my wife is a teacher and uses computers daily. She's rather more intelligent than the common herd, BUT, you should see the look of incomprehension I get if I mention anything to do with this hobby. Then there are the folks who use the dumbed-down wizard type programs. They don't know a whole lot more. And as much as I love DVDShrink, it's very easy. No, the real hobbyists are a small minority. It's a whole different thing, for instance, to be able to use ALL the capabilities of VirtualDub, although I don't make that claim (yet). And how about AVIsynth? Whew.

The best way to really start to learn something is to use single-purpose freeware programs. (I don't exclude freeware MPEG encoders either, I learned a lot screwing around with bbmpeg.)

[jimmalenko]

instead of getting into semantics, why don't you just say DVD Authoring?

Author
To format video into a form ready to burn onto a recordable disc or to stream onto the Internet. VCD, SVCD and DVD Author is to format video into its standard file structure and also add optional menus, chapters, audio tracks, subtitles, slideshows and much more.

There is still an authoring stage when you are merely copying a DVD - its just that most programs like Shrink do it for you.

[proxyx99]

You guys make it sound like one has to have IQ of more then 160 to deal with DVD material, whatever tools. Few more posts and you will start demanding Silver Stars for most of the posters. Just like any other thing it takes some time to get familar with the task and tools. I can think of many more complicated things to do or learn and would rate DVD making whatever the definition of it pretty low on this scale. Simple example: I bet an average CAD drawing or photoshop/freehand grapics would take more effort to learn (let alone to master) then making a DVD (for the purpose of discussion I chose to stay within computer related tasks). If you don't believe it try to replicate some in your spare time.
Copying DVD's or authoring can be a hobby for those who have some interest in video related stuff. But many don't give a damn, they just buy another one if the original's dead. They choose to do other stuff then DVD making. And that's fine. Just don't say how big of a genius you are cause you can make a DVD. It sounds a bit bombastic, if not outright ludicrous.
In that sense DVD making is one of those useless skills that I personally would hesitate to mention in any even semi-serious private forums.

[jimmalenko]

Just don't say how big of a genius you are cause you can make a DVD. It sounds a bit bombastic, if not outright ludicrous.

Did anyone say that ???

In that sense DVD making is one of those useless skills that I personally would hesitate to mention in any even semi-serious private forums.

I think you'll find that most people are humble when it comes to these skills.

[SatStorm]

When you are a student, it is easy to read something more and learn something new.
When you left behind schools / etc, start working and start feeding yourself, at first is difficult and after some years impossible.
Only few manage to keep the ability to learn as they use to learn and study when they were at school.

Don't mention that the sociaty learns you to pay for what you wish. The "do it yourself" is not a fashionable option, neither someone congratulates you. Most of them gonna call you a wierdo.
After all, what counts more when you spent time with the boys? Telling them how to make (author) DVDs or talking about the Euro2004 finals?

[proxyx99]

Good that we all try to keep a wide perspective on what is beeing discussed here. I just found it kind of funny when you read between the lines how complex and thereby honourable DVD "making" is. Nevertheless, I like to plunge in a creative process which outcome often finds its way onto a DVD. That of course has very little to do with an "art" of DVD "making" but rather preparing a creation which small part is "making" a DVD. Considering the complexity I have far more respect for those who can prepare an oustanding art or AV media or master/refine the material that ends up on a DVD rather then "making" the DVD itself. It requires way more effort and skill then anything else. This IS what makes a great DVD: a CONTENT and its quality. The rest is just a technical process of preparing a presentation environment.

So although these are issues that are of some importance I don't see it nearly as important as what we call "a content". Having this in mind wouldn't hurt as I could see the tendency by some to overexaggerate the subject. Simply this is not the way to earn your way to knighthood if you know what I mean.

As to proficiency with tools: it comes easy to those who are generally seen by peers as "good" or "great with computers". Great and useful skill but again far from beeing a center of our galaxy.

[freestyler]

There is still an authoring stage when you are merely copying a DVD - its just that most programs like Shrink do it for you.

That's not what I'm referring to. I'm referring to the goofy term "dvd-making." Any SVCD Makers here? How about VCD Makers? Lets bring out the bakers and candlestick makers while we're at it, maybe throw in a babymaker too

Your statement is flawed. What does Shrink author exactly? It re-authors if you choose to go that route, but for full-disc backups what would you say it does? It's basically a transcoder for authored, multiplexed content. You love the glossary and menus to the left, can you find DVD Shrink under authoring tools? I don't see it... For single layer backups its not even needed.

I think the point that Sony and the like are trying to make is that CD and DVD should be used for data backup and archival purposes - this is certainly what they intended it to be for when they created it. They should just get the music and movie industries to choose a different media.

The first two DVD-R drives ever to be introduced were made precisely for the dvd-authoring market, hence the distinction between dvd-r general and dvd-r AUTHORING media. If you wanted to backup data you just used tape, its been around for years. For small quantities go with cd-r... I might buy that excuse.

All of this is meaningless though, in 9 years and 364 days DVD will be obsolete...

[Lucifers_Ghost]

Hmm intresting - yes lots of very good guides indeed. Can you explain the constant influx of retarded questions.? Seems people cannot learn everything they need to know in less than a week.

This is going to get off topic, but I hate people like this.

Why, if someone comes in here asking a question that you deem simple, is that person asking a "retarded" question. A few times I have skimmed the guides and past posts for an answer to my question, only to find an answer and maybe not understand it, or possibly not find it at all (the search function doesnt really work that well in my opinion).

So, I ask a question that is DIFFICULT to me. I dont give a shit if its a simple to someone else. The mods in here, and many others, have years and years of experience in this field. So for them, my question may be trivial or easy to answer or even downright foolish. But to me, its a valid question.

Calling me or my question "retarded" is just not right.

"There are no stupid questions. There are only stupid people not willing to answer those questions."

LG

[proxyx99]

I agree 100%. This is what this site is for: answering questions !
Someone even named it "videohelp". In that context I think that holistic owes you a big time apology. This unprovoked showing of attitude should not be tolerated. There is nothing wrong with beeing helpful and polite... or maybe I'm mistaken...

Threads with this kind of approach move fast (towards the resolution) tend to be more interesting and to the point. Nothing wrong with jokes or beeng loose either but personal flame is not what we're here for.

PS. I need to correct myself. After a more careful reading I have to say that it wasn't personal so I withdraw my comment about the need for personal apology. Instead this is rather showing disrespect to other members especially those who least deserve it . One should be more careful with words here as nobody deserves to be called a "retard" or question beeing qualified as "retarded". This is way out of line.