convert ntsl - pal / pal - ntsc a new idea to think about

[stackner]

i have been ready all the posts on here about people wanting to convert between pal and ntsc. let me start by saying my dvd player DOES play both but my mothers player does not so i would like to convert some stuff from ntsc to pal for her. the main problem i have read in posts is the whole framerate conversion problem that converting from 30 to 25 just for an example will make the resulting video either skip or pause every so often. i hvae one very interesting question in regards to this.

what would happen if you played the NTSC footage on your computer/video player/dvd player and connected it to a standalone dvd recorder and recorded it to a dvd as PAL. when this was played would it still play back with skips/pauses

[flaninacupboard]

when you convert frame rates using TMPGenc it will add or delete entire frames to get the correct rate. this obviously looks crap

Playing NTSC and recording to PAL probably won't work. i'd be surprised if you can override the input format. a proper standards convertor converts the framerate in a field based operation. this gives slightly funky motion, similar to what you see on a 24fps movie telecined to 29.97 on ntsc TV.

far and above the best conversion for movies is doing the 4% speedup/slow down, but if your source is true 29.97 interlace a standards convertor is necesary to get decent quality.

[SaSi]

I was about to post a new thread, but this one appears to discuss the issue.

I have a 29.976 video footage (true 29.987 video) that I need to convert to 25fps PAL. I have gone through the video frame by frame and confirmed the repeat frames every 4 frames. As I understand, I need to remove this extra frame every 4 frames (which I think I've read is not repeated at certain timestamps).

The only way I can think of is to save the video (40min or so) as individual BMPs with VirtualDUB and write a program that will delete the extra frames, renumber the whole sequence and re-encode into AVI.

I bet there has to be smarter way but with NTSC video I am a hopeless rookie.

Any educated suggestions? Any specific tools I can use?

Thanks in advance

[flaninacupboard]

I was about to post a new thread, but this one appears to discuss the issue.

I have a 29.976 video footage (true 29.987 video) that I need to convert to 25fps PAL. I have gone through the video frame by frame and confirmed the repeat frames every 4 frames. As I understand, I need to remove this extra frame every 4 frames (which I think I've read is not repeated at certain timestamps).

The only way I can think of is to save the video (40min or so) as individual BMPs with VirtualDUB and write a program that will delete the extra frames, renumber the whole sequence and re-encode into AVI.

I bet there has to be smarter way but with NTSC video I am a hopeless rookie.

Any educated suggestions? Any specific tools I can use?

Thanks in advance

Can i check what you said "I have a 29.976 video footage (true 29.987 video)" should that be 23.976 footage in true 29.97 video?

[bugster]

I have a 29.976 video footage (true 29.987 video) that I need to convert to 25fps PAL. I have gone through the video frame by frame and confirmed the repeat frames every 4 frames.

If it has repeated frames, it is not TRUE 29.976fps.
Use IVTC to return it to 23.976fps, then speed up to 25fps for PAL.

[FOO]

If it is repeated FRAMES as in 1-2-3-4-4 1-2-3-4-4 etc. then
all you have to do is use Avisynth function SelectEvery
to grab 4 out of 5 frames. Decimate may do this more easily
by detecting duplicate frames automatically.
IVTC won't work on that. Telecine duplicates FIELDS

[bugster]

IVTC won't work on that. Telecine duplicates FIELDS

I Do believe you are right - my mistake, sorry

[vhelp]

I agree w/ FOO ...

use avisynth 's SelectEvery() and remove them. It's the best tool to use in
these sticky situations :P

Some thoughts on the above command..

SelectEvery() is very mysterious. At least to me. I've have not ben able to
find a "definative" manual on this one command for avisynth
.
In my OP, no one knows it's true and proper use. And, we all (I know I have)
have to try many many what-if's before it finally works. For example..
After many weeks of messing w/ an IVTC, I finally found a combo of commands
in avisynth to work out my "true" film sources from my .AVI captures (be
it LD disks or Antenna captures) just by using SelectEvery() by itself But,
this mysterious command is pure madness.

Just curious.. does anyone truel understand this command and can
give several good examples of HOW-TO in using it. Example as in SaSi 's
situation ??

In any case, I think that using SelectEvery() should do the trick. You'll
most likely have to resort to using a combo of other command in avisynth
to finalize the conversion - - good luck.

Many thanks all,
-vhelp 2556

[SaSi]

I have a 29.976 video footage (true 29.987 video) that I need to convert to 25fps PAL. I have gone through the video frame by frame and confirmed the repeat frames every 4 frames.

If it has repeated frames, it is not TRUE 29.976fps.
Use IVTC to return it to 23.976fps, then speed up to 25fps for PAL.

Like I said, with NTSC I'm hoplessly newbie.

Obviously, my footage is not TRUE 29.987, as it does have repeat frames. Being confused about the NTSC format, I thought that NTSC is 29,976, which when converting film to NTSC is actually 23.976 with some frames implied to be repeated.

I continued my search in the forum and found a good guide by SatStorm about IVTC on the 29.976 footage using VirtualDUB. I did that and it removed the repeat frames, which left as the only thing to do to speed playback to 25fps, adjust the audio pitch and finish.

Althought he video I wanted to convert is done, I am not sure I understand what I did and why

Is the following statement correct? (If it is indeed, then I guess I've learnt something in the process. If not, please be so kind to tell me where I've lost it)

NTSC is 29.976 fps. Video is shot at this frame rate, which means that no repeat frames are found. Film is slowed to 23.976 then repeat frames are added to make it 29.976. DVD allows for FILM material to be encoded at 23.976 so that repeat frames don't occupy space for nothing.

Now, if the above statement is correct, could someone point me to the right direction to read something about interlaced 29.987 material and how to convert that to PAL?

[FOO]

I guess I don't get the problem

SelectEvery( 5 , 0 , 1 , 2 , 3 ) selects frames 0 , 1 , 2 , 3
out of the set of 5 frames 0 , 1 , 2 , 3 , 4
It eats every 5th frame

SelectEvery( 2 , 1 ) gets every other frame starting at the second one

SelectEvery( 4 , 0 , 1 , 2 , 3 , 3 ) does the opposite of the first one

Is this not correct ?

[flaninacupboard]

I have a 29.976 video footage (true 29.987 video) that I need to convert to 25fps PAL. I have gone through the video frame by frame and confirmed the repeat frames every 4 frames.

If it has repeated frames, it is not TRUE 29.976fps.
Use IVTC to return it to 23.976fps, then speed up to 25fps for PAL.

Like I said, with NTSC I'm hoplessly newbie.

Obviously, my footage is not TRUE 29.987, as it does have repeat frames. Being confused about the NTSC format, I thought that NTSC is 29,976, which when converting film to NTSC is actually 23.976 with some frames implied to be repeated.

I continued my search in the forum and found a good guide by SatStorm about IVTC on the 29.976 footage using VirtualDUB. I did that and it removed the repeat frames, which left as the only thing to do to speed playback to 25fps, adjust the audio pitch and finish.

Althought he video I wanted to convert is done, I am not sure I understand what I did and why

Is the following statement correct? (If it is indeed, then I guess I've learnt something in the process. If not, please be so kind to tell me where I've lost it)

NTSC is 29.976 fps. Video is shot at this frame rate, which means that no repeat frames are found. Film is slowed to 23.976 then repeat frames are added to make it 29.976. DVD allows for FILM material to be encoded at 23.976 so that repeat frames don't occupy space for nothing.

Now, if the above statement is correct, could someone point me to the right direction to read something about interlaced 29.987 material and how to convert that to PAL?

pretty much there, for a few points. film is natively 24fps (that's what you see in the cinema) it's just sped up for us PAL users. also, frames aren't usually repeated (as you'll have noticed it makes choppy motion) they are split into fields and you'll have frame one field A displayed with frame two field B. do a google on telecine patterns and you'll find some illustrations.

as for 29.97video to 25video, i believe there's an avisynth script out there, but i just leave it at 29.97 as my DVD player and TV quite happily play NTSC.

[SaSi]

flaninacupboard,

I used the SatStorm's guide to convert to 23.976 and then back to 25 by speeding up a little. It worked fine.

The reason I need to change the original rate and format is that I need to merge this video with others that are PAL and I live in a PAL country anyhow, and other people will get a copy of the footage and I can't tell what their DVD players and TVs can handle.

[flaninacupboard]

flaninacupboard,

I used the SatStorm's guide to convert to 23.976 and then back to 25 by speeding up a little. It worked fine.

The reason I need to change the original rate and format is that I need to merge this video with others that are PAL and I live in a PAL country anyhow, and other people will get a copy of the footage and I can't tell what their DVD players and TVs can handle.

oh i see. a quick and dirty method is to stick it on a DVD, set your player to output PAL and let it transcode from NTSC to PAL while recapturing it. i've done that once or twice so i wouldn't have any issues with audio sync and the motion isn't too bad.

[SatStorm]

That's a nice fast and "dirty" method.
I output NTSC as PAL with a DVD Standalone that can do this kind of convertion (most R2 do it) and re-capture realtime to mpeg 2 with mainconcept. There is some kind of "flickering" and "jerkiness" in the motion (slow left to right move, etc...), but it works and because many TV Stations do this years now, it is "acceptable" by many TV Viewers.

Of course, if you realise that it can be done better and with no issues, then you piss off for real. Especially if you value a lot your material (for example, a rare old movie / cartoon you have that way)

That method I mention at the guides for NTSC to PAL is not the best, but it is among the easiest for us, the GUI users. And works on most situation (except true interlace NTSC of course)

[benbar48]

If you are converting the DVD MOVIE only from NTSC to PAL or vice versa, there's a way to do it but not possible on the whole DVD including subtitles. I've been converting DVD movie only with good video and sound for awhile. First of all , the whole movie is more than 4.7gb and you have to compress it and then re-encode. So, if that is your intention, just the movie only, to be watch on somebody else is not a problem.