Strange Picture Shake

[Devil]

Hi !

I've just encoded my DV footage and burnt a test DVD to try out. My film is basically holiday footage so there's a lot of little segments here and there just joined together.

I'm getting a strange picture shake in some of the segments. Not the bad cameraman type shake, it's more a constant picture shake that shakes the subject left and right in some segments. This happens mostly when I'm panning left to right but sometimes happens in shots where I'm not moving. In other segments it's perfect, it may blur a tiny bit when I pan but nothing that I can't live with. It's the camera shake that's really annoying.

Background:

- Footage AVI is approx 3hrs 57mins long in one file.
- I encoded that using Mainconcepts MPEG Encoder at 720x576 25fps.
- Stream typ: Progam (Audio + Video)
- Audio is fine so I won't go into detail there.
- I turned on 2 Pass Encoding
- Field Encoding: Bottom Field First
- Deinterlacing: None
- Motion Search Method 10 (out of 15, 1=fast, 15=exact)
- Motion Search Range 25 (out of 31, 1=Short, 31=Wide)

* Bitrate Type: Variable
- Rate Control Mode: Mode 1
- Max kbps (8000)
- Average kbps (2200)
- Minimum kbps (2000)

* Inserted chapters and converted from MPG to DVD_VIDEO using TMPG DVD Author.
* Burnt to DVD using Nero on DVD_VIDEO mode.

-
I don't see the camera shake in the MPG footage that was encoded when watching on Windows Media.

I know 4hrs is a very long clip for 1 DVD but I guess I was willing to live with a bit of picture quality degrading just to have everything on 1 DVD.

Have I got my settings wrong, or should I be encoding with something else such as TMPG instead ?

Has anyone experienced this problem before or have any comments or suggestions ? If worse comes to worse and it really is due to the 4hr length of the footage, I'll just have to split movie onto 2 DVD's (which I'm trying to avoid).

Thanks for any help.

[Baldrick]

tried change the field encoding order?

[Devil]

Woud you recommend Top Field first or Progressive Frame ?

I've been trying to read up on it but haven't seen much info for this field.

If I encode say 10mins of the movie, should the result be the same as if I encoded the whole 4hrs ? The reason I ask this is that it takes over 10hrs to encode.

I'm currently halfway encoding the whole thing on TMPG at CQ 65% and Search motion (estimate) to see if that makes any difference.

Also, if I'm able to calculate the bitrate using the calculator, would there be no point using a 2-pass variable bitrate ?

Thanks for your help.

[teegee420]

Woud you recommend Top Field first or Progressive Frame ?

I would try top field first. You should only use progressive if your source is progressive as well. In this case it is not.

If I encode say 10mins of the movie, should the result be the same as if I encoded the whole 4hrs ?

Yes.

Also, if I'm able to calculate the bitrate using the calculator, would there be no point using a 2-pass variable bitrate ?

If you are able to fit your movie onto a DVD to your satisfaction using CQ mode you should stick with that. I would only use 2-pass VBR if I needed a specific file size.

[Devil]

I'll have to go and pick up a DVDRW to test this out.

I thought the 2-Pass Variable rate would encode it a lot better (some way) as when it started it showed a time of 47hrs to encode !

I quickly cancelled that.

What I'm thinking of doing now is to just encode it to whatever size it comes out at (TMPG indicates 7gigs). I will then shrink it to fit onto one DVD with DVD2One.

I'll give the top field first a go.

If that doesn't work, I'll have to try the various combos by encoding 5-10mins of the movie.

Thanks for your help.

[teegee420]

I'll have to go and pick up a DVDRW to test this out.

Excellent idea. There would be far less coasters in the world if more people thought like you.

What I'm thinking of doing now is to just encode it to whatever size it comes out at (TMPG indicates 7gigs). I will then shrink it to fit onto one DVD with DVD2One.

Between the two I would use DVD Shrink. Seven gigs is somewhat of a high threshold. You might lose more quality than you're comfortable with if you shrink that much, though you might be content with the results depending on your tolerance.

[Devil]

Thanks ! I'll give DVD Shrink a try once I can pick up a couple of RW's tomorrow.

I'm actually not too fussed about picture clarity quality as long as the picture doesn't shake and isn't too blurry. I'm happy to settle with SVCD or so.

BTW, am I better of creating a disc at 352x288 with a higher bitrate or stick with 720x576 at the lower rate ?

[teegee420]

BTW, am I better of creating a disc at 352x288 with a higher bitrate or stick with 720x576 at the lower rate ?

If your bitrate has to fall below 5000-6000kbps than I would definitely go with 352x576. The picture may look a bit "softer" but the lower bitrate will be much more forgiving on a 352x576 frame size.

[Devil]

Do you mean 352x288 ?

If not, wouldn't that make the picture a bit squashed horizontally ?

[teegee420]

Do you mean 352x288 ?

If not, wouldn't that make the picture a bit squashed horizontally ?

I meant 352x576. The picture is horizontaly squashed in terms of pixel ratio but your DVD player will stretch the frame to fill your TV. 352x288 will probably cause aliasing, or "jagginess".

[Devil]

Oh I didn't realise it actually stretched the video out if you used that resolution.

Anyway, I've just about given up trying to squeeze 4hrs onto 1 DVD. I've tried nearly all combinations (top field, bottom, constant bitrates, automatic) etc and I just can't shake "the shake".

Although I did find the best result at 352x576. The shake was minimal but still annoying.

I'll try and re-encode it at 2hrs and see how that goes. If that solves the problem I think I'll just have to live with the movie spanning over 2 DVD's.

Luckily they invented the rewritable !

Thanks for your help !

[teegee420]

You're welcome. If you are willing to settle for VCD mpeg-1 than you can easily fit four hours on your DVD. Close to seven, as a matter of fact. All you have to do is change the audio sampling rate to 48000hz to make it DVD compliant. Just a thought.

[Devil]

Oh, would I get 4hrs at SVCD quality ?

Else, I wouldn't mind giving the VCD quality a try.

That would be at 352x288 right ? Should I just use the standard PAL VCD option straight off the TMPG wizard ?

Once I've encoded it as an MPG, I just author it to DVD_VIDEO and burn as normal right ?


Thanks.

[teegee420]

Oh, would I get 4hrs at SVCD quality ?

Nope. I'd say the minimum bitrate needed for SVCD is 2000kbps

That would be at 352x288 right ? Should I just use the standard PAL VCD option straight off the TMPG wizard?

Yes and no. You are correct about the resolution, but you will need to change the audio sampling rate to 48000hz. In step 3/5 click on "other settings" and go to the audio tab. Click on "sampling frequency", "unlock", "yes", then change from 44100hz to 48000hz. The DVD spec requires you to use 48000hz.

Once I've encoded it as an MPG, I just author it to DVD_VIDEO and burn as normal right ?

Pretty much, yes.

Now that I think about it, this is video of your family right? Are you sure you're willing to compromise quality for the sake of squeezing it all on one disc? I'd hate for you to view it years from now on a high definition display and regret not opting for better quality. It's up to you though. Do what you will.

[Devil]

Now that I think about it, this is video of your family right? Are you sure you're willing to compromise quality for the sake of squeezing it all on one disc? I'd hate for you to view it years from now on a high definition display and regret not opting for better quality. It's up to you though. Do what you will.

Actually you're right.

I've been testing the encoding on various bitrates and now that I've seen what full DV looks like for the same footage, I won't be compromising on picture quality.

The main reason I wanted to squeeze all this onto 1 DVD is because I'll be making about 10 copies of this movie for friends that were there which meant that I'd have to burn 20 DVD's if I split it over 2. However, now that I've seen the quality difference it's well worth it.

However, I just did a trial run on TMPG. I had to do it in TMPG as opposed to Main Concepts Encoder as this one doesn't seem to be able to let me select a portion of the movie to encode, unlike TMPG which lets me choose a Source Range.

I did it at a Constant Bitrate of 4667 for 2hrs 32secs, DC 9bits, Motion Search: High Quality (Slow), Interlace, Top Field First (field A), 4:3 625 lines (PAL), Full Screen (Keep Aspect Ratio), 720x576 25fps..

.. and you won't believe it. The picture still shakes. I can't believe it.. the quality of the picture itself was almost perfect on non moving shots, but when the camera panned the subjects would shake, almost like an internal picture shake.

I could live with a bit of a grainy shot, but this shake is just annoying. I have no idea why and am not sure what other settings to try.

I thought the higher bitrate would fix this up. It made the picture a lot clearer but the picture still shakes on pan. It doesn't shake when viewing the MPG on the computer, just on the DVD player and the TV.

I wonder if it could be the authoring process from MPG->DVD_Video ?? It wouldn't have anything to do with my Full Screen (Keep Aspect Ratio) choice would it ?

I'm baffled now.. willing to try anything.. any thoughts ?

[teegee420]

Are you sure this isn't just interlacing combing? Try playing the mpeg with a DVD player like Power DVD or WinDVD. Most software DVD players de-interlace playback on the fly.

[flaninacupboard]

if you could post a short clip up her we could look at it would help. find a small portion that "shakes" on play back (i mean a few seconds) then select just this short bit in virtualdub. use direct stream output to an .avi file and upload it somewhere (geocities do free webhosting, but you may some free webspace provided by your ISP) so we can take a look. it's very difficult to analyse these problems without seeing them ourselves!

[vcdforme]

IMHO Mainconcept is not very good at the lower bitrates.
If you don't mind using TMPGENC, I think you'll
be happy with the results.
Use the Wizard, choose"DVD-Low Resolution" setting..
It offers up to 270 minutes on one DVDr.

[Devil]

Are you sure this isn't just interlacing combing? Try playing the mpeg with a DVD player like Power DVD or WinDVD. Most software DVD players de-interlace playback on the fly.

Hmmm.. I'm not too familiar with interlace combing but based on that point, I've just brought the test DVD to a friends house and tested it on his LG DVD player 68cm TV and the shake is noticiby less !? There's still shake but it's almost bearable.

Although this doesn't solve the problem, does this help in anyway ?

When testing the MPG under PowerDVD I get no shake, when testing the DVD under powerDVD I notice no shake either, which is strange.

[Devil]

if you could post a short clip up her we could look at it would help. find a small portion that "shakes" on play back (i mean a few seconds)

I've found about a 5 sec part that shakes quite a bit. I'll upload that shortly.. thanks for this.

IMHO Mainconcept is not very good at the lower bitrates.
If you don't mind using TMPGENC, I think you'll
be happy with the results.
Use the Wizard, choose"DVD-Low Resolution" setting..
It offers up to 270 minutes on one DVDr.

I actually did switch to TMPG as I couldn't select a range to encode under mainconcept. I'm still running into the problem on there though no matter what bitrate I encode at, ie. from 2000-4667.

[Devil]

Here's the video clip.

It's about 6 secs in duration and is 20mb.

http://xparte.com/shaketest.avi


Thanks.

[bugster]

I did it at a Constant Bitrate of 4667 for 2hrs 32secs, DC 9bits, Motion Search: High Quality (Slow), Interlace, Top Field First (field A), 4:3 625 lines (PAL), Full Screen (Keep Aspect Ratio), 720x576 25fps..

AFAIK, DV is always bottom field first.

[Devil]

Bottom Field First was the default setting which I initially tried it on.

After encountering the problem it was suggested I try Top Field First so I've just been alternating between the two with various settings.. with no luck though

I'm sure I did Bottom Field First at 4667 but I'll try again.


Cheers,

[flaninacupboard]

im at work now, but i have an inkling of your problem. let me do a test encode, i'll save the TMPGenc project file so you can see my EXACT settings.

[Devil]

Ok strange, I went back and retried "Bottom Field First" at 4667 and it eliminated half of the shake scenes in the movie.

I used the same specs as before (other than the top field)

I did it at a Constant Bitrate of 4667 for 2hrs 32secs, DC 9bits, Motion Search: High Quality (Slow), Interlace, 4:3 625 lines (PAL), Full Screen (Keep Aspect Ratio), 720x576 25fps..

From my testing, it's actually eliminated the shake from the file I uploaded ! However, there are lots more scenes in the movie where it still shakes.

I've uploaded another file which still shakes even after using Bottom Field first. I'm glad it's actually starting to get somewhere as the shaking is "almost" bearable now as it's not every second scene.

http://xparte.com/shaketest3.avi .

Size is also 20mb.

If you could have a test encode and see how you go that would be great.

Thanks..

Goodnight.

[*esem*]

Hi,

Have you managed to shake out the shake ?

I have been reading the post coz I have the same problem and this is what i have found.

I used CCE 2.67 to convert DV to DVD as per the "doom9 CCE 2.67 guide" - http://www.doom9.org/index.html?/mpg/cce267.htm

Then used Ulead DVD Workshop 2 to auther and burn the DVD to DVD+RW disk.

Played back on a Sony DVPNS575P dvd player and found shakes to occur during any form of movement only.

Round 2. I used Ulead DVD Workshop 2 to perform the encoding (HQ 60Min VBR 8000 - the defualt) and it took out the Shakes!!??

BUT, what I would prefer to encode using CCE 2.67 Multi Pass as it creates great quality DVD and less file size.

Any clues as to the removal of the shakes ??

Thanks,
*esem*