Which format to go? Dash or plus?

[Zeluis]

This is my first post in the forum, which I find so far... overwhelming. Such wealth of technical know-how!
I'm just a non-tech somewhat klutzy guy who would like to share my experiences - once I get to have them.
Right now what I need is some advice. I have hundreds of VHS tapes (movies, mostly), that wants to move all that into DVD. I'd like to do it the easy way (well, at least what seems to be the quick one), so I'm not going to use a PC - don't have the time nor skill for it (I wish I had - too old now!). I'll buy a standalone DVD recorder to copy all the tapes, and then go on copying films from TV into DVD instead of VHS.
Now the big question (or the first of many): which format to go? Dash or plus?
I will need some rewritable discs to work as buffers, as I currently do with VHS tapes - I usually record late-night pictures, and the TV schedules can't be trusted, so I must include plenty of time before and after (also, many times, I record two pictures in the same tape). Then, I will use one-time recording for the "finished" DVDs.
In view of these requirements, which would be the best format?
The choice between -R and +R does not worry me much - the compatibility issue is not a big one, as I'll probably see most of the discs in the same unit I'll use for recording).
However, going -RW or +RW is another story. The DVD+RW Alliance (obviously biased) states that "DVD +RW recordings can always be added anywhere on a disc, because they do not need to be finalized" - whereas -RW does not allow it, as it has to be finalized. This would be important for me: if it is true, I would need many more rewritable disks for -RW than for +RW!
Of course, the actual format limits my choice of recorder - my options include JVC, Pioneer & Panasonic,
for -R/RW, and Philips & Sony, for +R/RW.
Can anybody with actual experience please throw some light on this?
Many thanks beforehand,

[SatStorm]

Welcome to the forum.

Today, both formats are equal in terms of price and compatibility.
The manufactures, like the plus format, because it is more easy for the factories.
The big ones like the dash format, because it is an official one, so it has to follow by letter all the rules and laws are now present for it.

The - RW vs + RW is another story: Most users report better results with the + RW format, but we can't say for sure. I rarelly use those and I have to mention that certain japanish manufactures don't produce yet DVD-RW discs, and that says to me something....

One difference you may notice, is the "quality" issue. This has nothing to do with the formats, but with the factories made them. Because the dash format was first, many manufactures produce cheap quality media, with plenty of problems. When the plus format appeared, it was wise enough to produce quality discs, so soon the ramour was "the plus format have better quality discs", which in a way was true.

Today, this is not the issue. There are cheap and quality plus discs, like the cheap and quality dash ones.

The plus format in theory has to present first better speeds from the dash one, also dual layer burning, which is the future of the recordable discs. But in praxis, those specifications are not present in the widely market and
when they start appearing in the selves of the stores, the dash format gonna catch up. But overall, it seems that the plus format presents first new technologies and extentions and the dash format follows. The differences are some months, which looks a lot for us, the enthusiast of this hobby, but it is almost unoticable for the majority of the users.

So, the bottom line is, use both, you won't see a difference in praxis. All the - after 2002 [ DVD standalones are compatible with both formats. Both formats gonna stay in the market for many years to come. Just use quality media, this is the only rule.

BTW: Since you gonna buy a DVD desktop recorder, search one with dual layer capabilities. In a year, you gonna thank for this feature, even if it is usuless for today in praxis.
And finally, personally I like the pioneer for DVD burners.

[Zeluis]

Today, this is not the issue. There are cheap and quality plus discs, like the cheap and quality dash ones.

And finally, personally I like the pioneer for DVD burners.

Thank you, SatStorm.
Just two points:
- Is there a place in the forum where I can see which are the good quality discs?
- Pioneer is a -R/RW burner, right? What about that issue I mentioned, that adding recordings is easier in +RW because it doesn't have to be finalized? Is it true?
Regards,

[vitualis]

Great post SatStorm.

However, in commonly used English it is in "practice" not "praxis", though your word choice is actually fine. More people probably associate "praxis" with a Klingon moon rather than its real meaning.

Best regards.

[Cobra]

Zeluis,

If you look on the left-hand side of your screen under the "Lists" heading, you'll find complete lists of DVD media. That should help.

I believe SatStorm was talking about a burner, and I myself use a Pioneer drive. They're dead reliable drives - mine burns to the worst kinds of media no problem. Solid advice there.

+R and +RW must be finalised (I believe) the same as the -R and -RW format. I think it's just a requirement for whatever is going to be reading the disc.

You've decided to go with the easy option - fair play, and with the problems I had when I learned to capture I can't say I blame you. If you want to learn how to capture using your PC sometime, though, there are plenty of guides on this site and the forums are always here.

Cobra

[SatStorm]

Thanks Virtualis for the correction! "Praxis" is the Greek word for "Practice" and sometimes I mess up those words! Sorry about it and thank you for your correction!

Yes, I was talking about the PC burners. I really like pioneer burners, I never have issues with them.

[Zeluis]

If you look on the left-hand side of your screen under the "Lists" heading, you'll find complete lists of DVD media.
+R and +RW must be finalised (I believe) the same as the -R and -RW format. I think it's just a requirement for whatever is going to be reading the disc.
Cobra

Thanks, Cobra!
I do remember seeing in several places that +EW doesn't have to be finalized - but maybe that's only relevant if you're burning in a PC, not in a standalone recorder.

[Cobra]

My friend has a standalone DVD recorder, so I just asked him about finalising. His recorder finished every session and then when a disc is finished the recorder says "finishing disc". I assume it is finalising it too.

It's nothing to worry about, it only takes a minute and no matter what you are burning on it will be taken care of automatically.

Cobra

[bugster]

If you are thinking about using RW disks in order to edit out commercials and start/end padding, why not get a DVD recorder with a HD. This way you do this kind of basic cut/splice editing directly on the HD and then copy the edited movie to the DVDr.

This will also allow you to record multiple movies and edit at your leisure.

[Zeluis]

Thanks, Bugster.
A recorder with HD was not in my list option - I'll have to reconsider it, and see which ones are around.

[ggw2000]

Thanks, Bugster.
A recorder with HD was not in my list option - I'll have to reconsider it, and see which ones are around.

In your first thread, you said that you have a lot of movies on VHS tape that you want to convert. Are you talking about "store" bought movies? If so then most of them are probably "Macrovision" protected. You will have to buy a unit to go between the VHS recorder and DVD recorder to get around this unless you buy a recorder that you can disable it. This can be defeated in the Liteon 5001/5005 with available hacked firmware.
I have a Liteon 5001 with all the "enhancements" installed. You can NOT find an easier recorder to work with period! I didn't even open the manual and was burning in a couple of minutes. Their "guider" menus are just plain simple. It is a +R/+RW unit. I have copied many shows to +RW and simply erased them and recorded another on the same disc (no finalization needed as long as played back on same recorder). The only problem with the 5001 is that it does not have a fan and you really would need to jack up the back of the top cover to allow heat to escape (my dad and I built perforated covers and replaced the original). The 5005 is a dual format recorder -+R/-+RW. It has a fan for cooling!
Again you mentioned that you are a newby to all of this. I highly recommend the 5005 for you. Gerry

[Zeluis]

Are you talking about "store" bought movies? If so then most of them are probably "Macrovision" protected.

Thanks, Gerry. No, practically all of them are recorded directly from TV.
Cheers,

[Sam Ontario]

This is my first post in the forum, which I find so far... overwhelming. Such wealth of technical know-how!
I'm just a non-tech somewhat klutzy guy who would like to share my experiences - once I get to have them.
Right now what I need is some advice. I have hundreds of VHS tapes (movies, mostly), that wants to move all that into DVD. I'd like to do it the easy way (well, at least what seems to be the quick one), so I'm not going to use a PC - don't have the time nor skill for it (I wish I had - too old now!). I'll buy a standalone DVD recorder to copy all the tapes, and then go on copying films from TV into DVD instead of VHS.
Now the big question (or the first of many): which format to go? Dash or plus?
I will need some rewritable discs to work as buffers, as I currently do with VHS tapes - I usually record late-night pictures, and the TV schedules can't be trusted, so I must include plenty of time before and after (also, many times, I record two pictures in the same tape). Then, I will use one-time recording for the "finished" DVDs.
In view of these requirements, which would be the best format?
The choice between -R and +R does not worry me much - the compatibility issue is not a big one, as I'll probably see most of the discs in the same unit I'll use for recording).
However, going -RW or +RW is another story. The DVD+RW Alliance (obviously biased) states that "DVD +RW recordings can always be added anywhere on a disc, because they do not need to be finalized" - whereas -RW does not allow it, as it has to be finalized. This would be important for me: if it is true, I would need many more rewritable disks for -RW than for +RW!
Of course, the actual format limits my choice of recorder - my options include JVC, Pioneer & Panasonic,
for -R/RW, and Philips & Sony, for +R/RW.
Can anybody with actual experience please throw some light on this?
Many thanks beforehand,

B4 DVD Recorders emerged, both + or - were good. Now +RW is a better choice.

[Zeluis]

B4 DVD Recorders emerged, both + or - were good. Now +RW is a better choice.

Thanks, Sam. Just a couple of pointers on why +RW is better?

[Capmaster]

B4 DVD Recorders emerged, both + or - were good. Now +RW is a better choice.

Thanks, Sam. Just a couple of pointers on why +RW is better?

Because that's what Sam has :P

Not another "Dash versus plus" war

[Zeluis]

Not another "Dash versus plus" war

I dislike wars. Just trying to take advantage of people's experience (which is probably not very honest either).

[Capmaster]

Not another "Dash versus plus" war

I dislike wars. Just trying to take advantage of people's experience (which is probably not very honest either).

Not your fault. Nothing wrong with asking. My comment was directed at Sam Ontario's response.

If he had added "IMO" or "IMHO", indicating that it's just his opinion, after his response instead of making a flat statement "now +RW is a better choice", you would know where he's coming from. He feels +RW is better. Not that he knows +RW is better. He doesn't know that because "+" or "-" is a matter of personal taste.

Discussing +R versus -R is like discussing religion, or PC versus Mac. You have people in both camps that feel strongly about it and they'll invariably chime in. In the past this has frequently resulted in a flame war, and the thread gets locked down. I'm merely trying to defuse that now because it doesn't do anyone any good to throw insults back and forth.

There's a quote that pops up here from time to time:
"Winning a flame war is like winning at the Special Olympics - you're the winner, but you're still a retard" Crude ...but it gets right to the point

[Zeluis]

"+" or "-" is a matter of personal taste.
Discussing +R versus -R is like discussing religion, or PC versus Mac. You have people in both camps that feel strongly about it and they'll invariably chime in. In the past this has frequently resulted in a flame war, and the thread gets locked down. I'm merely trying to defuse that now because it doesn't do anyone any good to throw insults back and forth.

I agree with you - insults/bad labels have usually very little information value ((at least technical) - and that's what I am looking for.
I'm surprised this is such a touchy subject - will try to stay away from it!
Now between you and I - what would be best for a newbie?
I just want to:
1. Copy VHS tapes to DVD (if possible, editing out ads), and,
2. Copy from TV to DVD - unattended, I usually copy old pictures, which are played at ungodly hours, so I have to do some editing afterwards.
And, if at all possible, do it in the simplest & quickest way: no PC! Life's too short!

Many thanks

[FulciLives]

The most popular stand alone DVD recorders are those made by Panasonic ... mostly because they were here first and have more-or-less perfected their machines (they are now on something like 4th generation now with current models).

Some people feel though that the quality of the Panny units, while good, could be better.

LordSmurf (a respected member of this forum) has done a lot of testing and found that the LSI chipset seems to produce the best quality.

Most of the stand alone DVD recorders that use the LSI chipset are cheap brands and the machines are cheaply made.

However JVC has just released two units that use the LSI chipset and they appear to be very good. One has a VHS VCR unit built-in and one does not.

LordSmurf tried the combo unit but was not impressed with the quality of the built-in VHS VCR (other's have reported more-or-less the same) so he recently returned it and is awaiting the shipment of the model that doesn't have the built-in VCR. Right now the only place selling that model is crutchfield.com but only because it is SO new. I've seen the combo unit (which seemed to be released first) at BEST BUY so I'm sure major stores like BEST BUY will soon get the unit that doesn' thave the VHS VCR built-in.

So ... you want to take a look at the Panny units, the JVC units and many are also really happy with the Pioneer units as well.

Those are pretty much the 3 big ones right now. SONY has a model but it is very expensive and while most have reported most excellent results (image quality wise) I've also heard that some have had issues such as overheating which is causing playback and/or recording problems. This unit is afterall SONY's first model.

Models to take a look at:

Panasonic DMR-E55 (basic model no built-in HDD)
Panasonic DMR-E85 (has a built-in HDD)
JVC DR-M10SL (basic model no built-in HDD ... this is the one without the built-in VHS VCR)
Pioneer DVR-310 (basic model no built-in HDD)
Pioneer DVR-510 (has a built-in HDD)

Since the JVC unit is the newest it is getting a lot of talk now ... poke around the forums here and also over at the avs forum website where they have a forum dedicated to stand alone DVD recorders ... lot's of traffic there.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

P.S.
If you intend to do this without a computer then I highly suggest you get a model with a built-in HDD. My understanding is that JVC will be comming out with such a unit soon though it may still be a few months off.

[Zeluis]

Panasonic DMR-E55 (basic model no built-in HDD)
JVC DR-M10SL (basic model no built-in HDD ... this is the one without the built-in VHS VCR)

Thanks, FulciLives.
I'll look at the ones above - can't find Pioneer here right now. The HD is a good idea, but too expensive for now.

[indolikaa]

I've been known around here to take people's cash and give them copies of their old VHS tapes on DVD in return.


I like DVD-R and DVD+RW. I use DVD+R. I'm warming up to DVD-RW now that I have access to 2X discs. So, I think the decision comes down to a matter of personal preference.

I don't think you could go wrong with anything Panasonic makes in the DVD Recorder world.

[FulciLives]

I should point out that you need to consider the quality of the blank media that you use.

The best that you can buy are the DVD-R discs that are MADE IN JAPAN. This includes Taiyo Yuden and Maxell.

Everything else is pretty much 2nd grade stuff.

As far as bang for your buck goes the best price is buying Taiyo Yuden DVD-R discs on-line from rima.com where you can get them as cheap as $1.20 per disc (of course you have to buy a 100 pack to get that price).

You can get the Maxell discs at a decent price in some stores such as Wal-Mart (10-pack for something like $16.84).

That is a good price if you don't want to buy on-line or are in need of a few discs quickly and can't wait for an order through the mail.

Also the FUJI DVD-R discs that come in 5 and 10 packs say MADE IN JAPAN and are actually rebadged Taiyo Yuden discs but you will pay through the nose for those ($24.99 for a 10-pack at BEST BUY though lately OfficeMax has been doing $19.99 per 10-pack).

Please note that the bigger FUJI packs (like the 25, 50 and 100 cake packs) say MADE IN TAIWAN and are NOT rebadged Taiyo Yuden discs.

Stay far away from those!

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[Sam Ontario]

Reason #1:

......... The DVD+RW Alliance (obviously biased) states that "DVD +RW recordings can always be added anywhere on a disc, because they do not need to be finalized" - whereas -RW does not allow it, as it has to be finalized. This would be important for me: if it is true, I would need many more rewritable disks for -RW than for +RW........

Reason #2:

Maxell 4x DVD+RW is 30% cheaper than Maxell 2x DVD-RW. Now in general most +RW are cheaper and with speed rating faster.

Reason #3:

I have the feeling Lordsmurf also recommend +RW rather than -RW.

[lordsmurf]

+RW is cheaper. +RW is faster. +RW sucks if you edit, however (IFO corruptions).

I do all editing on PC, so no matter.

-RW is more expensive. -RW take forever toi finalize. -RW is okay to edit.

-RAM is a HUGE pain to use. -RAM is easy to edit.

You should worry more about on-deck editing features and how well those discs play on other machines. The media type plays second fiddle to that.

I have a -RW/-R/-RAM unit, and a +R/+RW unit. By far leaps and bounds, I prefer the +RW discs on the +RW unit (again, editing on PC).

[rxtian]

Zw Luis : I sure wondered what to buy, when I found myself wanting to transfer my Beta tapes to DVD. So I read, and read some more.

Since I started w/ a +r/+rw burner two years ago, I am confident that the + format is reliable. Now I have a -/+ burner, and I have enough experience with the - format, to say that I am condfident that the - r disks will work fine. Yes, I stick w/ +rw, I do not use -rw. I use -r for Beta material, +r for backups of store bought movies, -r for mp3s, +r for data. No real data to share as to why. Just personal preference. I firmly believe there is a big difference in the quality of blank disks. I look for the made in japan disks, when I want blanks for long life ( I hope ), important projects.

I bought a Panasonic E55 dvd recorder. No hard drive, it cost $331.00 new in the box. I didn't want to get a unit w/ a HD the 1st time out. I figured I would get some practical experience, before I jumped in w/ both feet.

the E55 uses dvd-r and dvd-ram disks. If you wish to do more than basic editing, then using your pc seems the way to go. You can edit on the pc with some user friendly programs, like dvd- lab or tmpgenc dvd author. You can use either the -r or ram disks to edit. The -r disks are write once, the ram disks can be used over and over. To be able to edit a ram disk on your pc, you need a dvd-rom that can read dvd-ram

The E55 has recorded my Beta tapes to dvd beautifully. I was amazed at the quality of the finished dvd. I believe that the Panasonics TBC ( time base corrector ), has a lot to do with this. I have also recorded analog tv and digital cable to -r, and I was very pleased with the result.

Sony was too expensive. Pioneer was said to be slightly inferior to the Panasonic for coping of VHS or Beta tapes. Lite-On and Phillips are said to be good machines, but I do not trust their reliability to be as good as the panasonic.

Good luck. Don't be afraid to make a choice and then start recording. It is fun, and the results are well worth the effort.

[lordsmurf]

The JVC DRM10SL is an amazing little piece of machinery. Just what I've always wanted.

I've ued the Panasonic E50/55 series, compared to JVC, no contest.

The quality of this JVC is drool-worthy, and after some more playing, it will surely be my #1 pick. I already know I'm keeping it.

[Zeluis]

This has been my first experience in this forum (well, in any forum) - and it's been really informative. I want to thank you all that shared information with me. I'm sorry if I (inadvertently) almost rekindled a format war.

That said, I realize my approach was wrong - the format is not the issue in my pilgrimage from VHS to DVD.
So I'm opening a new thread, which I hope helps me to find the solution I seek:
- Philips recorder HDRW720.

This is my first post there:

Greetings.
I'm doing some research on DVD standalone recorders - I have plenty of VHS tapes (non-commercial - recorded from TV) which I want to port to DVD, and then I will also want to go on recording from TV as I do now.

From what I see now, the real issue is disk capacity - to record pictures from TV into DVD I will surely need more than 2 hours time per recording:
- because of the time added by the advertisements,
- because I record many pictures shown late at night, when I am asleep, so I must leave plenty of additional time, as the times rarely match those announced in the newspapers (currently, when I program recordings I use 4-hour VHS tapes).

That's the problem, as I have read that in order to have similar-to-VHS quality you cannot record more than 2 hours in DVD. Is this right?

If it is so, I will surely have to go for a recorder with HDD!
Currently there is only one available around here, the Philips HDRW720, which is fairly new.
Does anyone have any info on this? (data, please - no comments like, Philips suks. As I read somewhere, it is pointless to say such or such brand is trash - we should speak of specific models).
- Is this Philips first model with hard disk?
- It seems latest models from Philips are better than the previous ones, which generated plenty of negative reviews. Does anyone agree on this?

Thank you all once more. 8)

Moderators: should this thread be closed?

[lordsmurf]

With DVD recorders, it is fair to say XYZ brand sucks with image quality, because to date, most recorders from the same company use the same image chips.

[spiderman2k1]

I like DVD-R. I have the E80. Have no problem's. I edit on the E80. Panasonic support DVD-RAM if you want to work with the PC get the LG burner DVD-RAM works the say way as a hard drive.