Ethical Question

[Jayhawk]

I know it's OK to timeshift a TV show (TIVO) and watch it later. Obviously selling or distributing is a NO-NO. Personal use only.

Question:

What's the legal perspective on this and how does it differ (if it does).

Rent a movie from Blockbuster, make an RW backup, return the original the next day, watch the RW that night, erase the RW.

I got asked this question today and I was curious as to the opinions of the forum members. Frankly, I didn't have a good answer.

[shelbyGT]

well, first off, if thats all your doing with that dvd, then why dont you just watch the original? that hypothetical situation is nonsense to me.

but i'm pretty sure that, depending on who you ask, removing the css and macrovision from movies is the illegal part. so, most likely illegal

[indolikaa]

Illegal, in my opinion.

Illegal because CSS encryption would be broken and not done so for Fair Use. That moves it beyond the 'grey area' of the DMCA.

[VicodiN]

In renting a movie, your only paying for a designated time of use to view the product...

I also dont understand what the point would be to copy a rented movie -then erase it... As another poster stated, the situation is pretty silly to begin with...

As you stated - to my knowledge, it not illegal to record a television program for your own personal use.. Its only illegal to distribute and/or broadcast publically. How this relates to copying encoded media - I have no idea, because legally theyre considered 2 different animals altogether...

[Sifaga]

I try and keep it simple so i can understand it

breaking the CSS encryption is breaking the law

[lordsmurf]

If a bear shits in the woods, and nobody is there to smell it, does it stink?
Yes, that's an answer to your question.

[indolikaa]

If a bear shits in the woods, and nobody is there to smell it, does it stink?

Yes.

[jet757f]

How could you do such a terrible thing????

[indolikaa]

How could you do such a terrible thing????

What? Shit?

[housepig]

I know it's OK to timeshift a TV show (TIVO) and watch it later. Obviously selling or distributing is a NO-NO. Personal use only.

Question:

What's the legal perspective on this and how does it differ (if it does).

Rent a movie from Blockbuster, make an RW backup, return the original the next day, watch the RW that night, erase the RW.

the reasoning behind the timeshifting of broadcast shows is that you as the viewer have no control over when the broadcast happens, save for taping it to watch at another time.

when you rent a movie, there is an assumption that you are going to have time to watch it during the rental period - "timeshifting" in this case would be shifting the time you go to rent the movie.

it's a control issue - in broadcast, the broadcaster has control; in a rental situation, you control when you go to the store to rent the disc.

[Nenoosch]

it's a control issue - in broadcast, the broadcaster has control; in a rental situation, you control when you go to the store to rent the disc.

What about timeshifting a pay-per-view show? In that case it's you who controls the broadcast..

Interesting subject, although the original question is in my opinion quite easy to answer: illegal, since you're not supposed to back up the DVD anyway..

[Banshay]

Certainly illegal under the DMCA, but I wouldn't consider it unethical.

[SatStorm]

I couldn't ever imagine it, but here it goes me saying it...

You lucky Americans... You have "fair use".
We Europeans don't have such thing and besides that, now anything related to this hobby is one way or other illegal...

For those who don't understand, I'm talking about euro DMCA
http://news.zdnet.co.uk/business/legal/0,39020651,39148199,00.htm

I hope my girlfriend come and visit me in jail every next sunday...

[Jayhawk]

Thanks to all who contributed, especially Housepig who seemed to make the most valid argument. I think Banshay also made a valid point regarding the original question (illegal but not unethical).

For those that wondered why I do such a thing, the answer is I don't. The question was hypothetical. However I will say that I can think of several reasons for "wanting to do it".

The most obvious being time management. Wanting to watch two "one day rentals" on Saturday and Sunday but not wanting to make two trips (actually 4 both ways) to the rental store.

Another is the sometimes fact that renting a new release is a lot more difficult on Friday afternoon that it is on Thursday afternoon.

Another might be that it is more convenient on occasion to spread a long movie over two days, or possibly avoid the potential for an interruption that might cause you to return a half-watched movie (or pay for another day). I have a couple of "always on-call" friends (a doctor and a firefighter) that have watched a lot of half-movies.

Again, thanks for the the response.

[SaSi]

I try and keep it simple so i can understand it
breaking the CSS encryption is breaking the law

So, making a backup of a DVD you own is also illegal, isn't it?

[jarvis1781]

Thanks to all who contributed, especially Housepig who seemed to make the most valid argument. I think Banshay also made a valid point regarding the original question (illegal but not unethical).

For those that wondered why I do such a thing, the answer is I don't. The question was hypothetical. However I will say that I can think of several reasons for "wanting to do it".

The most obvious being time management. Wanting to watch two "one day rentals" on Saturday and Sunday but not wanting to make two trips (actually 4 both ways) to the rental store.

Another is the sometimes fact that renting a new release is a lot more difficult on Friday afternoon that it is on Thursday afternoon.

Another might be that it is more convenient on occasion to spread a long movie over two days, or possibly avoid the potential for an interruption that might cause you to return a half-watched movie (or pay for another day). I have a couple of "always on-call" friends (a doctor and a firefighter) that have watched a lot of half-movies.

Again, thanks for the the response.

Given what you said above, I don't think anyone will condemn you for making a copy to watch...you paid the rental fee and if you don't get to watch the movie because of being called into work or something like that I think you have a right to watch the movie without paying the rental fee again, because then it is the rental store taking advantage of you.

I find nothing unethical in copying a DVD to watch later given the above scenario.

[andkiich]

Easy solution - NETFLIX. Keep the damn thing as long as you need to, time no longer becomes an obstacle.

As far as the pay-per-view question goes, it's the same as a rental. Don't order it unless you can watch it at the time of order.

This is not rocket science. When I hear lame examples like these, it just sounds like people trying to justify illegal activity. As much as I do not like the DMCA and other laws, breaking them because they are unjust does not somehow make you noble. Work within the system to change the laws.

[Supreme2k]

The most obvious being time management. Wanting to watch two "one day rentals" on Saturday and Sunday but not wanting to make two trips (actually 4 both ways) to the rental store.

Too bad. If you don't have the time, you can't watch the movies (or you pay a late fee). Plus, I've yet to see a "one-day rental" policy anywhere. Most are at least two days for new releases.

Another is the sometimes fact that renting a new release is a lot more difficult on Friday afternoon that it is on Thursday afternoon.

HUH? If you can't get the movie, you can't watch it or back it up. I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

Another might be that it is more convenient on occasion to spread a long movie over two days, or possibly avoid the potential for an interruption that might cause you to return a half-watched movie (or pay for another day). I have a couple of "always on-call" friends (a doctor and a firefighter) that have watched a lot of half-movies.

Tough shit. Your contract with the rental place is that you will return the movie at/before a specified time. It's just a matter of "life sometimes sucks" if you're "on-call" and can't watch your movie. It is both unethical and illegal to dupe the DVDs. If you miss your kid's dance performance, you can't expect them to re-do it just for you, hmm?

Given what you said above, I don't think anyone will condemn you for making a copy to watch...you paid the rental fee and if you don't get to watch the movie because of being called into work or something like that I think you have a right to watch the movie without paying the rental fee again, because then it is the rental store taking advantage of you.

I find nothing unethical in copying a DVD to watch later given the above scenario.

You only have a right to keep the movie for the designated rental period. If you can't/don't watch it, it's (intentionally or unintentionally) your fault. If I buy a take-out meal and my dog eats it, I do not have the right to get a replacement meal.

[indolikaa]

Another might be that it is more convenient on occasion to spread a long movie over two days, or possibly avoid the potential for an interruption that might cause you to return a half-watched movie (or pay for another day). I have a couple of "always on-call" friends (a doctor and a firefighter) that have watched a lot of half-movies.

There are still places that don't offer 5-day rentals?

[triphop]

ethics != legal

there are many instances where it is illegal to do something where morality indicates the opposite. I can think of Apartheid South Africa, Nazi Germany and more besides. I do not think that the situation that original author mentions has any real ethical problem.

thats my opinion.

[zworg2]

....being time management. Wanting to watch two "one day rentals" on Saturday and Sunday but not wanting to make two trips (actually 4 both ways) to the rental store.

Well if you think about it would only be three trips....
If you dont want to take it back, dont rent it in the first place....

...."one day rentals"...

WHAT?

Another is the sometimes fact that renting a new release is a lot more difficult on Friday afternoon that it is on Thursday afternoon.

err...yes ..... AND?
If you cant rent it, you cant rent it...simple
Places buy lots of copies to try and ensure this doesnt happen too much.

Another might be that it is more convenient on occasion to spread a long movie over two days, or possibly avoid the potential for an interruption that might cause you to return a half-watched movie (or pay for another day). I have a couple of "always on-call" friends (a doctor and a firefighter) that have watched a lot of half-movies.

There are two types of on call.
The first (neither of the examples you give) will be paid extra for being on call, and would have to expect interuptions and live with it as they are getting money for being available.
The second (both examples you quoted) being on call is accepted as part of the job, and again you have to expect interruptions.
A Bus driver expects as part of his job to drive.

However back to your orignal question.
Copying a DVD you dont own is illegal, end of story.
When you rent a movie,you have not purchased any rights to that movie, except to watch it as much or as little as you like within the pre-determined and accepted rental period.
If you are not able to watch the whole movie within the rental period (whether out of choice or not) you can either keepit and pay a late fee, or not watch it.

shit happens, live with it.

[wings]

After reading these responces you mean no one here with DVD burners makes copies of DVD's? Why is there all these manuls on how to do it both DVD and SVCD rips and burning?

[housepig]

After reading these responces you mean no one here with DVD burners makes copies of DVD's? Why is there all these manuls on how to do it both DVD and SVCD rips and burning?

this thread is about RENTAL dvd's, which you have no leg to stand on for making copies.

[zworg2]

After reading these responces you mean no one here with DVD burners makes copies of DVD's? Why is there all these manuls on how to do it both DVD and SVCD rips and burning?

People are allowed (by most countries) to copy a DVD they own, as long as the backup is just that a backup, and for own personal use and not sold etc....

People also visit this site to create their own DVD's from alsorts of things including home video.

Yes of course people back up illegally, but that is not supported, recommended or helped with on this forum, and is classsed as warez.

Advocating warez the use of them or how to get them etc is not tolerated here.

Zworg2

<EDIT> Put much more succinctly by the post above, who beat me to it! <EDIT>

[Banshay]

I disagree that moral or ethical necessarily = legal. The law consists of those actions inherently wrong (malum in se), such as murder, and those wrong because there is a law against it (malum prohibitum), such as a parking violation.

If you accept that copying a pay-per-view or pay channel movie is fair use and therefore moral/ethical, I don't see how copying a rental movie is any different from a moral/ethical basis, although the statutes and the courts say it is illegal. I think it seems even sillier when you are talking about the same movie.

[Sifaga]

In reply to SaSi

So, making a backup of a DVD you own is also illegal, isn't it?

No I dont think so, breaking the CSS to make the backup is I am led to believe.


After what Ive read here on this site , i know theres lots of grey areas and people say that you can backup a copy of a dvd you own and theres lots about the law i dont know and copyright and everything else....

[bokkasrealm]

Of course it's illegal. But who cares? I think it's a great idea to buy a few RW's and copy your recent rentals on them. When youre done watching them, put them away and for your next rentals you record over them. It's sort of like juggling your rentals. Definitely illegal but I dont see any moral problems with doing just what I said.

[Justin42]

No I dont think so, breaking the CSS to make the backup is I am led to believe.

Yup, read up on some quotes of the "visionaries" of the MPAA-- the way the DMCA is written, breaking encryption by any means is against the law. When questioned about this, Jack Valenti said "if they need a backup, they can buy another copy."

The quote was widely publicized a few months back....

*AA sucks!

[jimmalenko]

Ethical/Moral standards change from individual to individual. Legal standards change from state to state, country to country.

Legally, it depends on where you are located. Ethically, it depends on your own beliefs of what is acceptable. If you can live with yourself while doing it, then do it.

[jarvis1781]

Another is the sometimes fact that renting a new release is a lot more difficult on Friday afternoon that it is on Thursday afternoon.

HUH? If you can't get the movie, you can't watch it or back it up. I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

You only have a right to keep the movie for the designated rental period. If you can't/don't watch it, it's (intentionally or unintentionally) your fault. If I buy a take-out meal and my dog eats it, I do not have the right to get a replacement meal.

I think many of you missed his point here. He is saying that it is difficult to rent a new release on Friday afternoon, so he will rent it earlier in the week and make a temporary copy of it so that he can watch it on the weekend. I find nothing confusing about what he is trying to do here.

What does a take-out meal being eaten by a dog have to do with making a copy of a movie to watch later? Here, the difference is that the movie rental has been paid for and is being watched just once(so no one is being taken advantage of) The studios and the rental company get their fee and you get to watch your movie. Ethically I see nothing wrong with that.