Ethical Question

[Jayhawk]

Basically, to all of you kids who post simply to start crap, get lost. Just because you pirate from your local Blockbuster does not mean that everyone here does it. You will get no validation for your illegal activities

I started this thread so I hope you're not referring to me with that "kids" crack. I'm well well well past the the age of most of you. I also currently have 547 PURCHASED DVD's so I'm doing my bit for all the staving actors out there.

This thread was started simply because I am interested in meaningful discussions beyond whether Riteks are better than Maxell. I noticed 50+ people have an opinion on this subject. Isn't that what forums are for.

[richdvd]

Question:

What's the legal perspective on this and how does it differ (if it does).

Rent a movie from Blockbuster, make an RW backup, return the original the next day, watch the RW that night, erase the RW.

I got asked this question today and I was curious as to the opinions of the forum members. Frankly, I didn't have a good answer.

This is the thread you started

I also currently have 547 PURCHASED DVD's

Yeah...so??

[bugster]

[quote"Jayhawk"]I started this thread so I hope you're not referring to me with that "kids" crack[/quote]

I think it is aimed more at those relative newcomers to dvdrhelp.com that post things like "Just trying to make a point on what gose on here"

The term Troll comes to mind

[Jayhawk]

Basically, to all of you kids who post simply to start crap, get lost.

I'm not a "kid" and I didn't post this to start "crap"

Just because you pirate from your local Blockbuster

I wouldn't have purchased over 500 DVDs if I was a "pirate"

[Jayhawk]

I think it is aimed more at those relative newcomers to dvdrhelp.com that post things like "Just trying to make a point on what gose on here"

Thanks bugster, I probably jumped the gun.

[richdvd]

I'm not a "kid" and I didn't post this to start "crap"

Why did you start this post then? If you have purchased that many movies, why would you worry about nonsense like this? If you are going to "pirate" keep your silly situations/ideas out of here.

[Jayhawk]

Why did you start this post then? If you have purchased that many movies, why would you worry about nonsense like this?

I've already answered that.

This thread was started simply because I am interested in meaningful discussions beyond whether Riteks are better than Maxell. I noticed 50+ people have an opinion on this subject. Isn't that what forums are for.

[HAMP]

I think the original point is not being answered. I noticed most are giving reason for why they would copy on a RW by giving different scenario (i.e On-call, would like to have more then 1 day of viewing) Who cares what the reason may be, explain it to the judge if the time ever comes but as I said before the original point is being past up.

What’s the difference between copying and watching later with TIVO and copying a DVD and watching later?

Here is my example of a situation:

With my cable company we have what is called “Video on Demand”, you pay and watch whenever you want, if you watch half now or the other half later but you are able to watch on your time, you don’t have to rush to the television 10 minutes before the hour to watch a showing. The video was paid for. Also I would like to add that some or even most new DVD movie’s that come out are also available with “Video on Demand” or “Pay per View”


Someone spoke on late fee’s, saying that is paying for extra days. I thought late fee’s was just an incentive to return the tape or DVD back on time for another customer to view as well…

[triphop]

Legal, no. Ethical, probably not. Would I prefer you burned it to RW and and returned it on time instead of holding on to it indefinitely while I make several unsuccessful trips to the video store to rent it, probably. Ultimately though, if enough people did it, Blockbuster would take a big hit when they realize they're not getting late fees anymore.

A business model predicated on late fees is a bad business model esp. with netflix type video rentals. Anyway AFAIK, the late fee issue has nothing to do with the illegality of the copying - that is between the copier and the copyright holder.

I do not see the ethical (not talking about legality here!) problem with getting a video, duplicating it, and then returning it. The copy could be viewed as for as long as the original rental period. As far as I can see there is no loss to any party.

[wings]

Below is a post just made. And people responded with help. Now why would someone be copying a DVD usning DVD Shrink? Is this person doing a Copy of a original DVD? Why Shrink it? Or are they up to something? Just trying to make a point on what gose on here.

It looks pretty clear to me that he is trying to back up his own DVD's.

Copying DVD's your own for backup purposes is (probably) legal, (In the U.S. it would come under 'fair use' I believe) though breaking CSS to do so is not. Overall this is a grey area of the law not yet tested in the courts. Until it is so tested it is accepted that we may discuss methods for doing this.

Copying rented DVD's is NOT legal and so discussion of this activity is NOT allowed here.

I will quote you again:

Now why would someone be copying a DVD usning DVD Shrink?

Purchased or rented, DVDshrink is a valuable tool for backing up DVD's.

Purchased or rented (or borrowed or stolen). You can infer what you want, but unless the post is overtly breaking the AUP, we give the benfit of the doubt.
Innocent until proven guilty.

Well said. Thats my point people who own DVD 's make back up's. Do they do the same for a rental. I am sure they do. If you find a $100.00 bill on the ground do you turn it in? (Text Book Responce). Or keep it?
People can say what they want but with all the information on this Great Site don't think people are not making copies of DVD's both bought or rented DVD's.

Again this is a great site. But don't hide behind the fact that it is only for backing up your Home movies. If that's the case you don't need have the decoding software talked about here to do that. Case in Point. I copied a DVD-R of home movies made with a Stand alone DVD Panasonic DVD recorder. I copoed from old VHS tapes. WHen done I made copies for my Family relitives with just using Nero 6 and Copy Disc on the fly.

And don't call me a troll. I read this site for information. I posted a reply to this open forum on a good topic to discuss. Just was throwing in my 2 cents on why people, NOT ALL are here. I read posts or comments about programs and how people copied Lord Of The Rings or what ever. Alot of the manuals here show you how to do it and clearly show commercial DVD's. One showed how to rip using Superman The Movie as an example.

Not trying to start something again just posting my comments on this topic. I will let the good lord past judgment.

[triphop]

Why, does the good lord post on this site too? And, no, I am not talking about LordSmurf.

[bugster]

Again this is a great site. But don't hide behind the fact that it is only for backing up your Home movies. If that's the case you don't need have the decoding software talked about here to do that.

No-one ever claimed that the methods for backing up DVD's discussed here are only for home movies. Where we do try and draw the distinction (and its a very shaky distinction on occasions I have to admit) is between backing up DVD's (commercial or otherwise) that you own and backing up DVD's that you have obtained by other means (rental, borrowed from a friend etc). We work on the basis that if you own the original you are legally allowed to produce a backup copy or shift it to another format (DVD to VCD for example) as long as it remains for personal use. No-one denies that what you do to backup the DVD's you own is exactly the same thing you would do to copy a rented DVD. However we deliberatley discourage discussion of this type in an attempt to keep this site as legitimate as possible.

You seem to assume every one discussing DVD backups is breaking the law. If they own the DVD in question that has yet to be proved either way in any court. If they don't own the DVD then it is illegal and so discussion is not allowed.

There is a very good article on the DMCA here . It sums up the general approach to DVD backups taken by dvdrhelp.com reasonably well. Take a read.

[wings]

Good article. Just to make things clear. I did not say ilegal or not on this forum. I was responding to people who first replyed to the post that stated that they were not doing it and this site is not for that. And pointed out what some people were doing. And the information here helps you do just that. It was like a Catch22. We don't do that but here is how you can do it. I also saw TechTV had a Dark Tip of the Day and they listed this site. They said it's awesome and I thing it is. So much information here. By the way Leo Leport made sure that when he said Copy your DVD he stoped and changed it to Back Up Your DVD.

Again great site and a good topic discusion.

[Supreme2k]

I think the original point is not being answered. I noticed most are giving reason for why they would copy on a RW by giving different scenario (i.e On-call, would like to have more then 1 day of viewing) Who cares what the reason may be, explain it to the judge if the time ever comes but as I said before the original point is being past up.

But it has been answered, time and time again. If you are unable to view the movie within the rental period, either don't rent it, or accept the consequences.

What’s the difference between copying and watching later with TIVO and copying a (rental) DVD and watching later?

One is time shifting, which is legal, since you have no control over when the shows will air. You have (almost) complete control over when you rent a movie.

Here is my example of a situation:

With my cable company we have what is called “Video on Demand”, you pay and watch whenever you want, if you watch half now or the other half later but you are able to watch on your time, you don’t have to rush to the television 10 minutes before the hour to watch a showing. The video was paid for. Also I would like to add that some or even most new DVD movie’s that come out are also available with “Video on Demand” or “Pay per View”

The VOD and PPV are only for a specified day. For example, you can't watch part of the movie on Tuesday, then part/all of it on Friday without having to actvate VOD again. They are similar to DVD rentals, with added convenience. Just as you have a rental term agreement, so are you agreeing to a viewing term with VOD/PPV.

@wings,
The tone of your posts seem to imply otherwise. You imply that most/all visitors are pirates. In fact, you are the one who brought up the hme movies argument. I don't believe I've ever read that "excuse" on this site. As in the alcohol analogy, you can't go lumping all visitors into the criminal group of a few.

[VinnySem]

It seems since the enactment of the DCMA, there is no more "gray area" between legality and ethicality. Let me explain:

I find it perfectly ethical to make a working backup of a DVD movie I PURCHASED, to protect against damage, scratches, mishandling, etc, for my own use in my own house. However, with the DCMA, if that movie has CSS encryption, I am breaking a federal law by cracking the encryption.

It is entirely UNETHICAL and ILLEGAL to dupe rented/borrowed movies. Not only are you violating the DCMA, but you do not already own a legal copy of the movie. You aren't backing up, you are violating copyright laws and committing piracy.

[Jayhawk]

Given the potentially tricky nature of this discussion topic, I'd like to thank bugster for letting it go on, and for jumping in when needed. I think this is what differentiates this forum from some of the others. Some have criticized the topic but there seems to be a lot of interest, at least judging by the number of posts.

[triphop]

It seems since the enactment of the DCMA, there is no more "gray area" between legality and ethicality. Let me explain:

I find it perfectly ethical to make a working backup of a DVD movie I PURCHASED, to protect against damage, scratches, mishandling, etc, for my own use in my own house. However, with the DCMA, if that movie has CSS encryption, I am breaking a federal law by cracking the encryption.

By your own example there is a gap between the ethics and the legality.

It is entirely UNETHICAL and ILLEGAL to dupe rented/borrowed movies. Not only are you violating the DCMA, but you do not already own a legal copy of the movie. You aren't backing up, you are violating copyright laws and committing piracy.

That is *NOT* what the original poster said. You are reacting to something that some on this thread *THOUGHT* he said.

[HAMP]

Supreme2k wrote

The VOD and PPV are only for a specified day. For example, you can't watch part of the movie on Tuesday, then part/all of it on Friday without having to actvate VOD again

I understand what you said and I understand that from other posts. Question is What about TIVO where you can watch on Tuesday then part/all of friday, isn't that what TIVO does?

Can or will someone comment on why TIVO is ok to use and not why copying DVD is not

[VinnySem]

It seems since the enactment of the DCMA, there is no more "gray area" between legality and ethicality. Let me explain:

I find it perfectly ethical to make a working backup of a DVD movie I PURCHASED, to protect against damage, scratches, mishandling, etc, for my own use in my own house. However, with the DCMA, if that movie has CSS encryption, I am breaking a federal law by cracking the encryption.

By your own example there is a gap between the ethics and the legality.

It is entirely UNETHICAL and ILLEGAL to dupe rented/borrowed movies. Not only are you violating the DCMA, but you do not already own a legal copy of the movie. You aren't backing up, you are violating copyright laws and committing piracy.

That is *NOT* what the original poster said. You are reacting to something that some on this thread *THOUGHT* he said.

My point is there is no gap, regardless whether or not you own the disk you are breaking the law. And I read what the original poster wrote, and what he proposed is both unethical and illegal, he doesn't own the disk, ethically or legally he shouldn't copy it. If you're worried about not being able to watch it before it's due back, either don't rent it until you can, or get Netflix.

[Supreme2k]

I understand what you said and I understand that from other posts. Question is What about TIVO where you can watch on Tuesday then part/all of friday, isn't that what TIVO does?

Can or will someone comment on why TIVO is ok to use and not why copying DVD is not

I already answered that:

One is time shifting, which is legal, since you have no control over when the shows will air. You have (almost) complete control over when you rent a movie.

[HAMP]

Sifaga Wrote:

Breaking the CSS is breaking the law.

I read my F.B.I. warning, I never read anything about "Breaking the CSS is breaking the law. " it says "Unauthorized reproduction, distribution or exhibition"

so which is it? CSS is breaking the law. or copying something that I own?


lol

[HAMP]

Supreme2k wrote:

One is time shifting, which is legal, since you have no control over when the shows will air. You have (almost) complete control over when you rent a movie.

what is the diffrence with TIVO, you have (almost) complete control over it just push play on the device that copied it..

[wings]

Found this on the dvdrhelp site

"What about copying your favourite movie onto a DVD recordable without ripping it onto your hard disk before? Insert your CSS- and RPC-protected DVD into your DVD drive. AnyDVD will automatically remove the protection. "


https://www.videohelp.com/tools?tool=294


Hmm???

[chaseru]

One is time shifting, which is legal, since you have no control over when the shows will air. You have (almost) complete control over when you rent a movie.

Just to add a wrinkle to time shifting:

I want to "time shift" my favorite TV program. Is there any difference between the following:

1. Press the record button on my TIVO to watch it later (skipping commercials); or,

2. Press the download button on my computer to watch it later (a VCD with no commercials)?

[housepig]

[quote="chaseru"]

Just to add a wrinkle to time shifting:

I want to "time shift" my favorite TV program. Is there any difference between the following:

1. Press the record button on my TIVO to watch it later (skipping commercials); or,
2. Press the download button on my computer to watch it later (a VCD with no commercials)?

if the "download" button on your computer is downloading from a distributor with the rights to redistribute the material, there isn't any problem. If it's coming from a 3rd party (ie p2p) with no legal right to distribute, you've added another wrinkle, allright....

Found this on the dvdrhelp site

"What about copying your favourite movie onto a DVD recordable without ripping it onto your hard disk before? Insert your CSS- and RPC-protected DVD into your DVD drive. AnyDVD will automatically remove the protection. "

https://www.videohelp.com/tools?tool=294

Hmm???

what's your point? that there are tools that can be used to circumvent CSS and RPC on this site? That's right up there with "look everybody, the sky is blue!"

[wings]

If they(dvdrhelp) are against it. Why have it here? You can't post on how to rip a DVD in the forum but you can download the manual or software. And this website will help you find and download the software.

I am just confused . Why slam people and report people who ask questions on how to rip a boot copy of "50 First Dates". Or a released copy od "Finding Nemo"? All the information is already here.

Oh and today the sky is grey .

[chaseru]

Just to add a wrinkle to time shifting:

I want to "time shift" my favorite TV program. Is there any difference between the following:

1. Press the record button on my TIVO to watch it later (skipping commercials); or,
2. Press the download button on my computer to watch it later (a VCD with no commercials)?

if the "download" button on your computer is downloading from a distributor with the rights to redistribute the material, there isn't any problem. If it's coming from a 3rd party (ie p2p) with no legal right to distribute, you've added another wrinkle, allright....

I think this illustrates that the "ends" may be ethical or legally permitted, but the "means" are not.

Time shifting can be performed legally with a VCR or TIVO or illegally via P2P even though the end result is the same.

If this is true, then how is backing up DVDs legal in the U.S. or ethical? The end result is likely legal (backing up a purchased DVD under fair use laws); however the means is illegal (defeating CSS under the DMCA).

[duhmez]

misunderstood is the rental. youre not paying to watch the film. you are paing for the service of lending you the movie for private viewing. this was decided in law some time ago, they are not renting you the right to watch the film, the right to the film is implicit in that it's made for "private home viewing"
they are technically charging you for taking the movie away from them.

burn to rw, then deleting, is fine. 9of course its not been tested in law yet......

[DVDDave]

you know, every MF who posted on this topic has most likely copied a css protected dvd. get off of your high horses and stop being hipocrytes!!! if you disagree with the original hypothetical question, then just respond---don't act saintly like you never did something that you weren't supposed to do!!!!!!!!!!!

[Supreme2k]

what is the diffrence with TIVO, you have (almost) complete control over it just push play on the device that copied it..

Read. very. carefully.

Timeshifting is when you record a show or event from television. Unless you are affiliated with the station, you have no control over when the event will be aired, so you time shift it to a time that will be convenient for you.

When you rent a movie, you decide when you will watch it or have time to watch it, so you rent accordingly. This is not time-shifting since you have complete control over when the movie will air.

----------------

Downloding from P2P is not exactly time-shifting either. The fact that you did not record it and (as has been mentioned) the persons(s) you downloaded it from does not have distribution rights makes it wrong.
----------------
wings is still not reading the posts. This site is for the fair use backup of DVDs (which is a tiny percent of what this site is about), but vehemently against pirating (be it rentals, screeners, or whatever that you don't own.
Quit bringng up the "why have it" gripe about the info. They can publish how to roll cigarettes or mix drinks, but it would still be wrong for minors to do it.

And yes, I'm an alcoholic