Pal-VHS to DVD - which equipment

[Billie]

First of all: this is my first post and I hope I chose the correct forum.

I am in the process of transferring my analogue video tapes to DVD.

My present equipment is:

Panasonic NV-FJ 620 VHS-recorder (PAL)
Datavideo TBC-1000 Time Base Corrector
Canopus ADVC-100 analogue to DV converter

My resulting video files (after converting them to mpg2, authoring and burning them to DVD) turn out to be noisy (flickering), and I would like to know whether a different VHS player like a JVC 8960 E would improve the situation.

By the way, so far this forum has been very helpful to me. My decision to get both the Datavideo TBC-1000 and the Canopus ADVC-100 were based on the various recommendations found here!

Looking forward to any help concerning my hardware question! (Software solutions, if there are any that are not too time-consuming, are welcome, too!)

Billie

[FulciLives]

My resulting video files (after converting them to mpg2, authoring and burning them to DVD) turn out to be noisy (flickering), and I would like to know whether a different VHS player like a JVC 8960 E would improve the situation.

Well to me video "noise" and "image flicker" are two different things.

Noise can be dealt with by using filters. Some encoders like TMPGEnc have a noise filter built-in. There are also filter options in VirtualDub and Avisynth.

I think there are filters for flicker but I'm not sure ... I never had this problem and I'm not sure why you are having it.

Perhaps try a different VCR (if you have another or one you can borrow) to see if it makes a difference.

But I'm not sure if THAT (the VCR) is really the problem.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

P.S.
Make sure you are not deinterlacing the video as that could cause flicker.

[Cole]

I use a Panasonic (nv-hd90 best VCR I have ever owned) and a ADVC-50 Canopus card to capture.

Does the whole picture flicker or just the bottom strip of the picture? If that is the case, then they all do that. This strip will not show when the file is converted to DVD/VCD and played to a telly. The bottom strip will be out of the picture frame of the telly screen.

Just curious though, I have my VCR directly connected to my Canopus card and the resulting picture is superb. Have you tried capture without the Time Base Corrector?

Also, what capture software are you using?

[Billie]

Thank you for replying to my question.

My capture software is WinDV.

The bottom strip is quite distorted but that is no problem when frameserving with Avisynth. I usually crop the bottom of the picture then centre the leftover part by adding borders at the top and at the bottom.

I own the TBC just for a couple of days and so far cannot tell whether it improves the capturing results. I didn't have any lost frames with my Canopus device before using the TBC and of course haven't had any since using the TBC.

I would still like to know whether a high quality S-VHS recorder with built-in Digital Noise Reduction could help to achieve better results. I would like my movies to be less noisy than they are now. But maybe there is no way to achieve near-DVD quality when capturing VHS-videos.

Anyway, thanks again to FulciLives and Cole for answering to my question!

Billie

[SatStorm]

What you use to encode?
This "flickering" sometimes happen with older mainconcept versions.

[yodel]

Billie, this flickering is both on pc, or played on a standalone ?
this could be the frame(field) order, of which frame first, during your avi to mpeg encoding,I 've here a JVC HR S8960 recorder, and noticed, when capturing a MacroVision protected tape, lines at the top (most) and bottom are distorted, and the image "bumbs" a few lines, when TBC or Video Stabelizer is switched off, this is gone, when these image enhance functions are switched off , the HR S8960 still enhances the image quality with DNR and a edge sharpness...
so your combination of hardware is more "controlled" i guess, try some
differend combinations, do you have Scart and RCA connections for
video ? i guess you don't have a S-video connection.
before capturing a video-tape, it's also good "practice" to first spool
the tape completely, and rewind it, so electronics doesn't have to "kick in"
to correct something.
Check if you have same results with different "sources" of video,
Are cables clear of any EMR sources ?
Tell something more about your setup, and video (tape) sources.

note: yes it's fine to have DNR, but sometimes you want to switch
it off, which can't in my case, because with high contrast, a person against
a bright background, you get "halo" edges , which isn't a nice effect,
(maybe amplifying the video signal will also reduce the noise)

(maybe not important, but can you switch off your RF modulator ? jvc has this option)

[Billie]

@SatStorm
I am not using an old version of the MainConcept encoder, so that cannot be the source of my video files' noise.

@yodel
The noise is visible both on PC and on standalone player.

The files the Canopus ADVC-100 generates are interlaced with bottom field first, I've already checked that and use encoder settings accordingly.

My Panasonic VHS recorder has no S-VHS output that's why I have to get by with the composite signal via scart adapter and RCA cables. I've already thought about whether this might be one more reason to get a JVC S-VHS recorder. With my Panasonic I can't switch off the RF modulator.

My tapes are mainly home recorded ones (on different recorders), some I bought (mainly educational material). The latter ones have better quality than my own tapes but they too show the noisy effect.

yodel, why can't you switch off DNR? Is there no such option in the JVC 8960's menu?

Thank you for all your help! Looks like I might give a JVC S-VHS recorder a try!

Billie

[yodel]

Yes, i checked every menu item of the HR S-8960, soft, edit, b.e.s.t.
etc.. with all image enhance functions swithed off it still does have DNR
"kicked in" when you switch from "pause mode" to "play" of a tape,
then you see the switch to DNR.
It's not that it degrades the image, it is defenite an enhancement,
but one wants to have full controll (sometimes it has a halo effect
arround image edges)
Maybe later models have an option for it, (9000 series) but this i don't
know, maybe other forum members can tell.

Billie, the TBC you've got is of much better quality, then is
built in the JVC recorders, but S-VHS is an approvement in your case,
i don't know if it matters, when it's internal or external.
I then don't know, what causes the "flickering", is it over the complete
image surface (light/dark) or just in some colors, or parts of the image ?

[Billie]

@yodel
Thank you for spending your time on checking your JVC's options.

Today I did some more testing with different *.avs-scripts and found out that the following script resulted in a much better result:

LoadPlugin("...\AntiFlicker.dll")
AviSource("...\test.avi")
converttoyuy2()
antiflicker()
temporalsoften(3,20,20)

But the encoding took an awful lot of time. At least I'm sure now my problem is flickering, not noise!

I'm still unsure whether to purchase a S-VHS player, would be another € 279!

Billie

[yodel]

To buy a S-VHS recorder.... eventualy they will stop, or don't put a lot
of effort in the VHS format, i guess, with DVD-recorders taking over...
I've got still a lot of VHS tapes, i wanted a good recorder for those,
a lot of vcr's they are now selling are cheap crap....
Now i can record/play good quality, (as far as the broadcaster this transmits) television, and pre-recorded tapes,
i can capture this when i like, with different settings each time,
and have a S-video connection, which is better than composite-
video, the jvc i've got has a seperate mini-din s-video in/out connections,
2 SCARTs and RCA audio output, so i've got the ADVC100 on the mini-din, and RCA... And a SCART switch-box for the tv and audio equipment.

[yodel]

btw. since i have this model jvc recorder, i have less noise then with
a cheaper model, also a jvc, the difference i notice, when using the
build-in TBC, is, vertical lines are straight, and the image is stable,
not jumpy, only, with one tape, which has Macrovision, (also using the
cheat mode on the ADVC100) picture is distorted at the top, also on the
regular tv, but with switched off TBC, this is gone.

[Billie]

@yodel

Thank you for all your information. Looks like the 8960 is JVC's top model in Europe. Since I want the best possible result when transferring my VHS tapes to DVD I've made up my mind and ordered the JVC 8960 today.

I'll be back here as soon as I can report my first encoding results!

Billie

[yodel]

@Billie, Don't know if you' re living in a PAL or NTSC area, but i heard
from other forum members, there are differences in the PAL and NTSC
vcr models of JVC.
There are also 9000 series vcr models, but i could only get hold of the
HR-S8960, and only via ordering by the Internet here in the Netherlands,
the later models have a larger frame buffer, i don't know how much this
differs, in a previous forum post i hoped i got some interaction of other
users, with their advise, or experience, well, i'm very happy with my
vcr for now, connection wise also, this is very easy, shame, only, my
tv set has only one SCART, it's handy when you've got two, you can switch on the tv (remote) which line input you want.. now i've got a switch
box for that, which i have to control simultanious with my receiver's
remote. still have to find a way to fit my LD player in this situation,
still have to plug this one seperate in.

[Billie]

This thread is about PAL-VHS to DVD, and I need a PAL S-VHS VCR. I've done a research and think that those JVC 9800s or 9900s are NTSC recorders. The top JVC NTSC VCRs in fact have 4MB buffer, but I couldn't find one of that kind with one of their PAL recorders. So I think the 8960 is the best I can get.
I've ordered it via Internet but delivery will take a couple of days. I'll report on how transferring my tapes works out using the JVC 8960 as soon as I've got some first results.

Billie

[SatStorm]

I'm not a fan of JVC for PAL users.
IMHO, the best VCRs for us, the PAL users, are those from Sharp...

[yodel]

@ Billie, the carton-box, where my vcr came in, has a sticker,
stating: HR-S8960E , so, don't know, where the "E" at the end
stands for, it's not on the front of the vcr, this extra "E", but it is on the
sticker at the back of the vcr, you can guess... maybe Europe,
or because of the EP record/play mode, (i guess not)
I'm also very happy with it's performence in normal VHS mode,
it's much better, when captured, and put on dvdr, there's little
difference when putting this dvd into pause-mode, i guess normaly,
the noise patterns differ in two halve frames...

[yodel]

I'm not a fan of JVC for PAL users.
IMHO, the best VCRs for us, the PAL users, are those from Sharp...

When.... you see them in the stores, i guess, and i haven't seen one
lately....

[yodel]

Just "corrected" a vhs video tape (prerecorded), it showed hops in the
time line, i guess the sync part of this "tape" had some errors,
Parts where chopped out, but keepin video and audio in sync by
the ADVC100, so i now switched the video-stabelizer on, in the JVC HR S8960E, this helped ! only small plops where heared in the audio,
picture was perfect, so i guess i can audio-edit out those plops.

[Billie]

@Yodel
Well, I started this thread inquiring about hardware, but since I am still waiting for the JVC I might as well ask a software related question.
What app do you use when capturing your VHS tapes? I've been using WinDV so far. But there's no way to choose a codec so I had a look at iuVCR which allows to select e.g. HuffyUV or MJPEG. With either of these codecs I achieve valid avi-files. But is there a difference of quality?
What's your preferred capturing app? Is there a codec you like most?

Thank you,
Billie

[FulciLives]

@Yodel
Well, I started this thread inquiring about hardware, but since I am still waiting for the JVC I might as well ask a software related question.
What app do you use when capturing your VHS tapes? I've been using WinDV so far. But there's no way to choose a codec so I had a look at iuVCR which allows to select e.g. HuffyUV or MJPEG. With either of these codecs I achieve valid avi-files. But is there a difference of quality?
What's your preferred capturing app? Is there a codec you like most?

Thank you,
Billie

You have a Canopus ADVC-100 so you should be capturing to DV AVI format using something like DVIO or ScenalyzerLive etc.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[yodel]

Yep, i'm using WinDV too, i've tried the ScenalyzerLive Demo too,
but see not much difference DV AVI codec wise, keep in mind, that you are always capturing with a DV AVI codec, little to no compression,
which is 13Gb per hour, only capture cards like ATI, capture directly
in MJPEG, a stronger compression, with a "nicer" GOP structure,
but forget this...
ScenalyzerLive has more "bells & whitles" but you must ask yourself,
if you are going to use them, and want to pay for that...
Better spend your money to a good & fast encoder, like CCE Basic,
You can exactly mark the start and end within your captured AVI,
and only encode that part to MPEG2, with 2 PASS VBR, you get to files,
(elementry streams) which you can put directly into DVDLab, or
TMPGEnc DVD Author, or make a wav file (instead of mpa) and convert
it to AC3 with the combined Besweet & AC3Machine , it's easy that way.

btw. you can download the Canopus DV codec for free.

[FOO]

MJPEG doesn't have GOPS

[Billie]

Thank you again for your answers.

The Canopus ADVC-100 produces DV avi-files, okay. So there's no need to use a different app than WinDV. No need to spend money for iuVCR then!!!

I hope the JVC 8960 E gets delivered tomorrow so that I can start testing!

Billie

[FulciLives]

Thank you again for your answers.

The Canopus ADVC-100 produces DV avi-files, okay. So there's no need to use a different app than WinDV. No need to spend money for iuVCR then!!!

I hope the JVC 8960 E gets delivered tomorrow so that I can start testing!

Billie

It seems somewhat rare BUT you should know some people find they get A/V sync problems with CERTAIN DV capture programs.

It makes no sense really BUT just so you know people that have that problem have found that ScenalyzerLive works for them i.e., no A/V sync problems.

Best I can gather is that some DV AVI capture programs rely on a built-in windows sub routine to do the "dirty work" and some computers have "issues" with that whereas ScenalyzerLive has it's own built-in stuff and doesn't need to access the OS in the way that some (most?) other DV capture programs do.

So all I'm saying is if you encounter any A/V sync problems then just keep tucked away in the back of your mind that ScenalyzerLive might be a solution.

It does seem to be a favorite amoung those that use the Canopus ADVC-100 and although it is not free I do recall (last time I checked) that the price wasn't very much either.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[Billie]

Thank you, FulciLives, for pointing the A/V sync problem out, but with my Canopus ADVC-100 I haven't encountered a single situation where audio was out of sync. So I might as well stick to WinDV. WinDV just lacks one feature that Scenalyzer has, it doesn't output sound while capturing. But then, who wants to listen to the film while being captured?
Once and again, many thanks for all your help!

The JVC 8960 E was delivered today, will do some testing and report on the results later on!

Billie

[yodel]

MJPEG doesn't have GOPS

I know only, there was some advantage, which "normal" MPEG2 has not,
with MPEG2 you can't use every frame, to edit to, or from,
With MJPEG you can ? but i believe MJPEG has less picture quality.

[yodel]

@ FulciLives @ Billie

Yes, that's the nice thing about the ADVC100, video and audio are hardware locked, and you don't need drivers, the other ones that need
drivers, have indeed this "problem" the only thing i miss is PAL60
support, then it would be perfect. but i can live with this, otherwise
i had sync problems too

[Billie]

Today I replaced the Panasonic VCR for the JVC 8960 E S-VHS recorder.
For testing purposes I used the same video as before.
The difference is astonishing, the flickering I complained about is completely gone. I don't know whether this is due to the s-vhs connection or to the superior quality of the JVC player.
My current setup:
JVC --> TBC-1000 --> ADVC-100
Probably due to the external TBC-1000 the JVC's built-in TBC doesn't seem to have any visible influence on the capturing quality.
With video stabilizer switched on (which automatically deactivates the built-in TBC) video quality deteriorates, video is bobbing up and down.
I couldn't detect any positive or negative effect of the biconditional equalized signal tracking (B.E.S.T.)
Maybe different tapes need different settings, future will show, but so far I am very pleased with my first test results.

Billie

[yodel]

@ Billie

Great, Billie, yes, there will be also moments you need the "video stabelizer" option, i noticed this with one tape, allthough i don't know,
if this is the case when you're using your own TBC 1000, but i guess
you can try different combinations in your case.
My experience is also that sometimes it's better to use JVC's (always auto)DNR only, with Macrovision protected tapes, but that's not always the case.

btw. you're also using S-video and RCA audio directly ?

[Billie]

@Yodel

JVC to TBC-1000 via s-video / rca, same way from TBC-1000 to ADVC-100. No composite connection anymore, maybe that did the trick!
Thank you for the interest you've taken in my hardware setup!

Billie