TV captured via D8camcorder through DV-in out of synch

[DavidMcGowan]

I own a Sony Digital 8 camcorder and have enabled DV-in. I was hoping to use this as a go-between to capture TV footage and use it on my PC. I am using an S-video connection between my Sky+ box and the two phono leads conencting to the camcorders a/v port. I then have the camcorder connected to the firewire port.
This should allow me to capture the video in AVI on the fly, but I am finding that the audio is going increasingly out of synch with the video when I watch it back on the PC. Is there any reason why this might be happening?

[Bstansbury]

Are you playing back the .avi file in ???? what software. Did you transfer the file as type 1 or type 2. I've done what you want to do many times and I only use VideoStudio 7 to do any watching, and/or editing,.. as well as converting the results to DVD format. I always leave the audio locked to the video, just to avoid sync problems.

Give us some more info and maybe we can help.

[DavidMcGowan]

Are you playing back the .avi file in ???? what software. Did you transfer the file as type 1 or type 2.

Sorry I'm not quite sure what you mean here.
As for the rest of your post, I am using Pinnacle Studio 9 to capture the video, edit it and then convert it to DVD. I did not notice the synch problems until I was actually watching the first DVD, and assumed I must have, as you suggest, unlocked the video and audio by mistake while editing, but I captured another video and it exhibited the same synch problems before I even started editing.
I had a similar problem last year when using a cheaper program, Editstudio, when I was trying to do the opposite - output an edited DV-video back to my camcorder. The audio went out of synch in a similar way.

Thanks for your help so far.

[Bstansbury]

Go back and try the capture again. This time, play all the .avi file all the way through in Pinachle and watch for sync problems. Then Convert it to MPEG in Pinnacle but don't put it to a DVD save it to an MPEG file. Then play it in Windows Media Player and watch for sync problems. Someplace along this path you should find your problems. I suspect that it is during capture with your Pinnacle software. Are you aware if you are dropping any frames during capture. Did you capture the file via Firewire or through the Pinnacle analog capture card into AVI format.

All of this is important. If you used DV capture it should provide you the option to transfer the file in type 1 or type 2 DV format. One separates the audio from the video into two files,... the other keeps it all in one file. The problem is that if you edit the file without editing the audio,.. and you delect sections of the video,... you have cut time out of the stream and not changed the audio. This will clearly change the audio sync.

If you have dropped frames,.. which will also cause audio sync problems, you could have something in your system that interrupts the processor during capture. ?Check this out.

[DavidMcGowan]

Thanks again for your reply. The problems are definitely already there at the .avi stage. Pinnacle is not reporting any frames dropped during capture, and I am capturing via firewire.

As for the type 1 and 2 format, I'll have to check this next time I do some video capture. I'm away from home for a couple of weeks so cannot check this out straight away, but I'll post back once I've tried it out.

[Bstansbury]

Is it loosing sync in Pinnacle or did you try it in Media Player. I can't believe the .avi is out of sync. This is all digital transfer from your camcorder,.. and it would have to be out of sync to do this. Is this an old tape that was made in analog mode in another camcorder or is it a new shoot.

I could believe that Pinnacle could get it out of sync as it has to pass the audio through your system to the PCI buss to get the audio to your sound card. If you can output it from your Pinnacle card and software to your TV and watch it there,... see if that is out of sync. This sound does not go through your PC or sound system.

Somewhere there is a rat in the wood pile.

[DavidMcGowan]

I'm not capturing the video from a Digital8 tape - my camcorder has an option that allows it to accept video footage from another source (in this case, my satellite TV box) and output it into DV 'on-the-fly', allowing me to capture it using the camcorders DV-out funciton with firewire at the same time. As far as I know, I'm not able to capture this video onto Digital8 tape using the camcorder, and then capture it from tape later using Pinnacle - equally, this option would be less appealing to me since it would add extra wear and tear to the camcorder through extra tape recording and playback.

My only other thought is that maybe it's going out of synch from the camcorder. I'm using an S-video cable to get the video signal, and the phono leads in the a/v connection to get the audio. Since I'm using two different cables for video and audio, is it possible this is causing it to go out of synch? Annoyingly, my satellite box does not have a component video-out option, so I'm not sure how I would be able to capture video and audio using the same cable.

[jg0001]

I had the EXACT same problem. Here is your answer: SCENALYZER

Studio can't do the job unless you make everything perfect. Since that is a ridiculous hurdle to jump just use something else to import. Use SCENALYZER (free trial, pick it up under Tools <---) to import from FireWire DV. Once you have your perfectly sync'd .AVI file, take it over to Studio and do whatever you want without worrying about sync issues. SCENALYZER has worked perfectly EVERY time for me when using my mini DV-cam as a pass-through. I have WinXP & Studio 9 (had 8), so I set Scenalyzer's settings to DV-AVI type 2 (the default) and set max file size to unlimited; I also tell it NOT to identify scenes. I 'capture' then take the AVI file over to Studio and can do whatever I want with it (I usually start by having Studio identify scenes based on CHANGES in video (since the other 'markers' aren't there)).

Apparently, even had you captured the TV signal to DV tape then later played it back to Studio, you'd still lose sync. I've found that if the source signal was analog, even if you are using a DV tape that is itself in sync, Studio (among others) will have problems with any blank spots or glitches in the tape that result from an analog source and fall out of sync in the transfer. It is very strange, but I struggled with it and eventually just ended up using Scenalyzer for the 'capture' transfer process and have had ZERO problems since.

[jg0001]

BTW, it is not a camcorder problem.

If you think his problem is odd, mine was even odder. I DID try passthru to Studio, had same problem as the original poster. Then I tried recording to mini-DV first THEN transferring into Studio 8. SAME PROBLEM persisted (audio loses sync, gets progressively worse). It did not matter what I played it back in as the AVI was truly out of sync when Studio brought it in. I would then play the mini-DV tape back and watch in the view screen of the camcorder and it was NOT out of sync! This was baffling indeed.

I would note that I've never had a problem transferring any home videos that I shot with the mini-DV camera onto new tapes. I've only had this problem when the source was from a cable line or VCR. A few people suggested that the 'crap' in an analog signal (blank spots, audio pops, tracking errors) is recorded to the DV tape and when played into Studio, it loses sync just as it would had you tried to import poor analog source to begin with.

After hearing about all the above, someone suggested SCENALYZER since it actively locks audio/video sync when importing AVI. I tried it, it worked on EVERYTHING and I haven't looked back since.

[DavidMcGowan]

Thanks for this! Hopefully it will be an answer to all my problems. Nice to see that I can use a trial version of Scenalyzer before committing to a purchase. As I said in a previous reply, I'm not at home to test this out for a couple of weeks, but I'll definitely post back here when I've tried it (and hopefully thank you once again! )

[Bstansbury]

I can understand that "JG0001" had success using "Scenalyser", but there has to be some other thing that is common to both of you. I was not talking about transferring the analog tape to Digital 8 tape first, Iwas also talking about on the fly pass through. That is the best way to get video into your system. I have done Pass through from S-video, and composite
via my camcorder, firewire, to VideoStudio, Ver 6 and Ver 7,... no problems ever with audio sync.

However, try out the scenalyser and see it if works,... then you can pay for it. I just don't understand your problem,.. and I suspect that the 1000's of other people that use VideoStudio and find that it works for them, would also not understand this problem.

There is a specific web site and web master that helps with VideoStudio problems. You may want to visit it and ask him for his help. His name is Jerry Jones and the web site is http://news.ulead.com:8080/%7Ewebutilities

[troyvcd1]

I also used ulead videostudio and mediastudio to capture with no problems on a slow system. Can understand maybe dropped frames but not sync issues.

[jg0001]

I agree that it is a highly unusual problem, but after spending a ton of time trying to get my setup to work thru Studio, I have little desire to spend any more time on the matter, especially if something else (Scenalyzer in this case) does the job. The license fee for Scenalyzer (~30) is easily worth the time saved. I know it sounds like an ad, but if you went thru all the hassle I did then found something that solved your problem, you'd be happy to be done.

As I said in an above post, someone suggested to me (in another topic) that they had a similar problem if either the source had video problems (v-sync issues, whatever) OR if the was essentially BLANK analog video (i.e. static) at the start of the capture or any gaps otherwise.

Anyway, clearly it is a wonder as to why Studio 8/9 can't do what Scenalyzer can, but only on tapes or when passing through certain analog video.

[FulciLives]

I've read many posts from people who say they have audio/sync problems when using the pass-thru feature on thier digital camcorder.

Interestingly enough most problems seem to be with SONY models.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[jg0001]

For the record, my mini-DV cam is a Panasonic PV-DV953 (3ccd). I don't think the problem is the camera, but Studio 8/9 as Scenalyzer did just fine and my camera itself also made perfectly sync'ed copies of what I was recording.

[zeus163]

I also had problems with my audio going out of sync using my Sony camcorders DV pass-through. I had always used Scenelyzer and that didn't solve the problem. It was always the same after about a 1/2 hour it would slowly go out of sync. Nothing I tried fixed it. So, that's why last year I bought an ADVC-100 and haven't looked back (that was the solution to my problem).

I just wanted to chime in and say that it might be a Sony problem.

[troyvcd1]

I dont know how the capturing program can have anything to do with the audio going out of sync. Once it is coming out of the camcorder it is just 1s and 0s and if it is in sync then then your capturing program is not going to throw it out of sync.

[yg1968]

First, editing DV avi (even basic cutting) can sometimes make the DV out of sync.

Secondly, playback of interlaced video on a computer will sometimes appear to be out of sync eventhough it is not really out of sync. But if you play the DV avi file with a program such as PowerDVD (which de-interlaces upon playback), this out of sync illusion will disappear.

It is possible for a hard disk to be too slow for DV capture and therefore drop frames. See this link:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/directx9_c/directx/ht...oderfilter.asp

I have a Sony digital camcorder TRV-25 and regularly use the passthrough feature and do not have any out of sync issues.

[jeski]

I've had similar problems trying to transfer VHS to VCD using my Sony TRV-830. I record the VHS to Digital 8 tape using the RCA inputs and then transfer it to my PC using firewire. I originally noticed the problem using Studio 8, but have had the same issue with other programs (MS Movie Maker, WinDV, Pinnacle Expression) .

Using DVIO I'm able to capture/transfer in-sync if I output to AV type 1. However, if I output to AVI type 2 the video is noticeably out of sync at the end. Even if I take the in-sync type 1 AVI file and convert it to type 2, it's out of sync after the conversion. The few tests that I've run using Scenalyzer and a capture that I was able to try with Adobe Premiere created AVI type 2 files that were in sync.

Apparently, the vast majority who do this type of thing don't appear to have this issue so I wonder if it is an issue with only certain camcorders (most notably Sony). I also wonder if some of these tools aren't using the same MS library functions and therefore exhibit the same issues, whereas Scenalyzer and Adobe Premiere have their own transfer routines.

[BSR]

I have a Sony camera also, a DCR-PC101.
Use it for pass through with VideoStudio 6 and Premiere with no sync issues.
Tried WinDV type2 for captureing because of lower computer overhead and after 1 hour my audio is off by 600ms.
If it was just a Sony issue, wouldn't the sync be out no matter what program you use. Seems more like an incompatibility or something.
I would really prefer to use the smaller program to transfer if the sync issue can be reslolved.

[FulciLives]

I have a Sony camera also, a DCR-PC101.
Use it for pass through with VideoStudio 6 and Premiere with no sync issues.
Tried WinDV type2 for captureing because of lower computer overhead and after 1 hour my audio is off by 600ms.
If it was just a Sony issue, wouldn't the sync be out no matter what program you use. Seems more like an incompatibility or something.
I would really prefer to use the smaller program to transfer if the sync issue can be reslolved.

Try ScenalyzerLive

Some have reported that this program works well for DV AVI capture.

Those who have had sync problems with other DV AVI capture programs seem not to have sync problems with ScenalyzerLive

Not sure why that is so but I've heard it over and over again in these forums.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[BSR]

I downloaded the trial of Scenanalyzer and will try to give it a try tonight.
I'll post back weather it worked or not.
It is strange because I always thought firewire was just a data transfer, not a capture. Might be the way each program writes the type 2 file to the hard drive.

[FulciLives]

I downloaded the trial of Scenanalyzer and will try to give it a try tonight.
I'll post back weather it worked or not.
It is strange because I always thought firewire was just a data transfer, not a capture. Might be the way each program writes the type 2 file to the hard drive.

Well someone who seemed to know what he was talking about said that ScenalyzerLive uses it's own internal routines whereas many DV AVI capture programs have to access something inside the Microsoft OS and that this might be the reason why ScenalyzerLive has no issues.

How true that is ... I have no idea!

But like I said I hear people all the time praising ScenalyzerLive for keeping sync when other programs have failed to do that.

I agree it is strange to have this with DV AVI capture/transfer.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[Almost Human]

The "FREE" way to solve this!

WinDV to capture/transfer in Type 2.

Open video file in VirtualDub, under Video choose "Frame Rate", in "Source rate adjustment" select "Change so video and audio durations match", under Video select "Direct stream copy", under File select "save as AVI", output to new file (preferably on a different HD.

This will only solve the gradual out uf sync issues. If it's out of sync the same throughout, use VirtualDub's "offset" function.

No, I don't know why it goes out of sync, and apparently nobody else does either.

[FulciLives]

The "FREE" way to solve this!

WinDV to capture/transfer in Type 2.

Open video file in VirtualDub, under Video choose "Frame Rate", in "Source rate adjustment" select "Change so video and audio durations match", under Video select "Direct stream copy", under File select "save as AVI", output to new file (preferably on a different HD.

This will only solve the gradual out uf sync issues. If it's out of sync the same throughout, use VirtualDub's "offset" function.

No, I don't know why it goes out of sync, and apparently nobody else does either.

But then you end up with an odd framerate like instead of 29.970fps you might end up with 29.942 or 29.993 or something like that.

You can fix that with the AviSynth command "AssumeFPS(29.970, true)" but the whole point of DV is to get rock solid A/V sync. I don't mind doing that trick with analog captures I do through my PCI capture card but that is just not acceptable for DV AVI captures.

Although if you have to do this it is not the end of the world.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

P.S.
I use that Avisynth trick with my analog captures that I do with PICVideo MJPEG but I should point out that it only seems to work correctly if the frame rate is slightly below the target i.e., 29.970fps ... if I get anything over 29.970 like even 29.971 then SSRC pukes when I run the AviSynth through TMPGEnc. Thankfully most of my captures are in sync at around 29.966fps and everything goes smooth with the conversion back to 29.970fps

[buttsy00]

Hi guys,

I am having similar sync problems too.

I am transfering VHS through my DV camera using Type 2 and when I play back the capture on my pc there is no sync issues.

It is happening somewhere between editing with vdub then frameserving it to TMPGEnc Plus the sync issues seem to be occuring. Because when I play back the encoded mpeg it is out of sync after anout 1 and a half hours.

Almost Human will the setting you suggested to use in vdub help me when I am frameserving or will they only work if I save it as a new avi?

Any help would be appreciated guys.

[Bstansbury]

It's been awhile since I've read this post and I'm suprised that it is still alive. Since there has been all kinds of speculation on what the problem is, and clearly all kinds of recommended solutions,... I'll add my 2 cents just to get people thinking.

Since DV transfer is just Digital Byte transfer, I don't believe there is any way to get that screwed up. Sooo, It would have to either be inside the camcorder, where something is drifting, or another place. If it is a Camcorder that does not have a built in TBC, it can clearly get out of sync. I don't know how anyone could get a list of Camcorders that have TBC, Ijust know that my Sony TRV-740 has it,... and I don't have any sync problems.

Now, since I don't feel that the transfer can cause a sync problem, then the sync issue could be at "Playback". Your system hardware, background programs, Audio card, or AVI player could cause the out of sync. If you were getting out of sync when you played your DV directly to your TV, then it has to be something wrong with the camcorder. The audio is recorded directly in time with each frame and is not referenced to some "Time Base" where it could gradually drift over a long period. If a camcorder has a sound sync problem, it will be with every frame.,... IMHO. The camcorder would have to be generating video at 29.xxx fps and audio and 29.xxy fps with no TBC.

This should get some "Thinking" going.

[yg1968]

The only camcorders that have a TBC are digital 8 camcorders such as the Sony TRV-350. My understanding is that the TBC on these camcorders is only used when playing back analog digital 8 tapes. For strictly DV camcorders, there is no need for TBC as DV recording implies audio and video that are almost locked to each other.

[MpegEncoder]

OK, here's the deal. Using a camcorder with passthrough does NOT guarantee audio/video sync. Even when the camcorder has a TBC. The audio and video are NOT locked and therefore they will START OUT together, but will be moving APART for the entire duration of the video.

This means that you have to check towards the end of a long video to notice the problem.

This web page explains it very well.
http://www.adamwilt.com/DV-FAQ-tech.html

My solution has been to use VirtualDub and select the option of match the length of the audio and video, and yes this usually means that you end up with a video that is 29,971 FPS. This does not usually cause and problems that I've noticed.

There are certainly other ways to fix the problem. One would be to save the audio to a WAV file and use something like Adobe Audition to stretch the audio to match the video and then encode them that way.

Anyway, it's a pain in the ass, but that's the deal.

[yg1968]

The problems seems to occur only when using type 2. Using only type 1 DV when editing seems like the easiest answer to the problem.