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  1. Member
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    I will soon be doing the monstrous task of moving all my crappy, old VHS to DVD and am pretty much set. My weapons of choice so far are my JVC HR-S7800 VCR, A->D passthrough on my camcorder, and Ulead Video Studio v7. I "capture" in DV format, encode to MPEG-2 with TmpGENC or Cinemacraft, and author up the final movie. So far, so good on the testing, but UVS is presenting me with an afterthought:

    I understand that my "captures" aren't really captures and are simply transfers over firewire, but UVS somehow gives me the option to save my files as MPEG ("MPEG" or "DVD", actually), which is confusing me. Is the program somehow using my CPU's to encode on the fly as the file transfer is occuring? What's happening here?

    I ask this because, as happy as I am with what I've got so far, it IS quite the pain in the arse to wait around for all that encoding. I have dual Xeons and a gig of good, solid RAM - but even with that, it takes some time, especially on 3-Pass VBR type stuff. To sum it up, my thoughts and questions are:

    1. What is happening during my MPEG "captures"? Is encoding done on the fly immediately following transfer?

    2. I know this has been beaten to death, but any opinions on the costs/benefits of actually DOING it this way (MPEG "caps" vs. .avi) would be really appreciated, if it's applicable to my situation. Would the time I'd save be saved at a cost that isn't worth it? Believe me, I have read the homework on this and opinions vary widely, to say the least. Just looking for some fresh ones here.

    3. Side Note: I also have an ATI 8500DV that would let me capture the stuff the old school way, which is another alternative. I can't see going back to this, but if anyone has any thoughts here, PLEASE do send em + anything else you might think of. This is going to take a lot of time and I'd prefer to do it right the first time, for once.

    Thanks muchly.

    Zeek
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  2. get a hardware external or internal MPEG-2 Decoder and encoder like Dazzle
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  3. Member dcsos's Avatar
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    Note ULEAD doesn't have hardware just software MPEG on-the-fly

    Supposedly ATI (half hardware realtime MPEG)
    or Canopus
    (all hardware MPEG REALTIME)
    do a better on the fly job
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  4. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    MainConcept 1.4
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    FAQs: Best Blank DiscsBest TBCsBest VCRs for captureRestore VHS
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  5. Member dcsos's Avatar
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    Smurf isn't that SOFTWARE ENCODING?
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    I'm only recently aware of Mainconcept and the fact that it's also a realtime MPEG-2 capture toy in addition to encoder.

    Smurf: Are you suggesting I use MC to capture or encode? And if you meant capture, did you mean from camcorder or the ATI card? I read your guides - all of em. AVI for editing and mpeg for non-editing sounds simple enough even for me. I'm just not sure of how much editing I'll be doing yet because, truthfully, I really haven't played much with those toys at this point. I'm going to try out V-Dub's tool chest tommorrow and see how it works for me. One reservation there is that, if I'm correct, is that editing means re-rendering (avi or otherwise) and, since I'll already be doing that once anyway (to get to MPEG-2), I don't want to lose any more quality and time than I already will be. Hopefully this makes sense.

    Gotta get that VCR serviced, too. And I may just get the damned TBC-1000 after all. God knows I'm in deep enough to justify it as it is.

    dcsos: Yep, I believe it sure is. With the kind of hardware I'm packing over here, I'm not too worried about resources. I assume that's the big hang-up with software encoding but if there are other issues here that I'm unaware of, pls let me know.

    You mentioned also that ATI may do a better job (half hardware vs. no hardware, I blv.) Not sure how that works, but if you think I should seriously consider doing this without the DV/camcorder, I'm all ears.
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  7. Why not just take something you've already encoded, capture directly to MPEG-2, and see how they compare (maybe something short so you can put both versions on one DVD for quick comparison).

    I do capture directly to MPEG-2 and have been happy with it, but I don't have experience with TMPGEnc to compare it to.
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    MrMungus,

    Think that's exactly where I'm headed. What're you using for your encodes, if not TMPGEnc, btw? And for your MPEG-2 caps - Mainconcept?
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  9. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Yeah, MC 1.4 is software encoding, but if you insist on a DV interface device (via firewire port), and want to mimic on-the-fly MPEG captures, this is really the only valid option out there, though not flawless. It takes the transferred DV file and re-encodes ("captures") to something else on the fly.

    If using the ATI AIW part of the card, use ATI MMC.
    Want my help? Ask here! (not via PM!)
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    If your CPU speed is sufficiently fast you may use Ulead to get MPEG2 encoding on the fly otherwise try MC 1.4 as suggested. You don't need to get it done in one shot. If HD space permits get it as DV Avi and convert it later in Ulead or MC 1.4 (it's fast). You will have less problems and better control over the output. This is a better way. If your MPEG2 capture has dropped frames you will need to do it all over again. Since DV transfer rarely drops frames, if source is OK, you may get better refults.
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  11. Member tweedledee's Avatar
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    If you do a camcorder pass through, you can use Power vcr to capture in mpeg 2, and I find this is quick and good enough quality for me.
    "Whenever I need to "get away,'' I just get away in my mind. I go to my imaginary spot, where the beach is perfect and the water is perfect and the weather is perfect. The only bad thing there are the flies. They're terrible!" Jack Handey
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    Thanks all. I have a 500G RAID array that, for the time being, is dedicated solely to video. So, for now, I got enough for gum.

    I'm also running dual CPU's, so on-the-fly would probably not be a problem. Most of you guys seem to feel the "after" way would be better, though (for encoding, that is) - so guess I'll probably stick with that.

    Lord Smurf: I really don't insist on anything and will consider any approach. Far as I'm concerned, everyone here is a pro as compared to me, so I stand only to gain here by listening/trying.

    I guess my main reason for leaning towards DV is it's convenience and also the apparent lack of synch issues, relatively speaking. It's not do or die DV, though. I'm reading that I may sacrifice some color depth but might gain a little detail from going this route. So far, that's pretty much what I know. I guess it boils down to my just having to try it and see how it is visually to my own eye and then take it from there. By now, I'm pretty sure you know my hardware and setup though - so I'd certainly be interested in hearing how you'd handle it from start -> finish, given my scenario.
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  13. Originally Posted by lordsmurf
    Yeah, MC 1.4 is software encoding, but if you insist on a DV interface device (via firewire port), and want to mimic on-the-fly MPEG captures, this is really the only valid option out there, though not flawless. It takes the transferred DV file and re-encodes ("captures") to something else on the fly.
    There are others, but this is probably the best one.

    I tested a few (PowerVCR, Ulead MPEG Now, a couple others I can't remember) a year or 2 ago and NONE came close to my USB1.1 InstantDVD unit on my Athlon 1800+. A couple wouldn't do DVD resolution at all, and the ones that did needed to be set to lowest quality so the CPU could keep up in real time.

    I recently tested MC's 1.4 in my newer Athlon 3200+ against my newer Hauppauge PCI capture card (which handily beats the InstantDVD). The MC quality slider works in real time up to 30 (out of 50), and looks close to the PCI card (but not quite...). Audio sync is actually a bit better in the MC software (the PCI card gives the audio a slight but perceptible delay - maybe 70-ish ms or 2 frames' worth.

    So, if you have a fast PC, real time software is beginning to look viable.

    edit: BTW, this was at a bitrate of 4000. I wanted to work the encoders a bit, and realtime encoding would most likely be done for VHS tapes so I wanted a rate that would fit 2 hrs per disc. I didn't test at higher bitrates, and it's very possible that at, say, 6000 there may be no visible difference at all.
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  14. Originally Posted by Zeek
    MrMungus,

    Think that's exactly where I'm headed. What're you using for your encodes, if not TMPGEnc, btw? And for your MPEG-2 caps - Mainconcept?
    I encode directly to MPEG-2 using Ulead DVD MovieFactory SE (which came free with my DVD burner).
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    Originally Posted by Jester700
    Originally Posted by lordsmurf
    Yeah, MC 1.4 is software encoding, but if you insist on a DV interface device (via firewire port), and want to mimic on-the-fly MPEG captures, this is really the only valid option out there, though not flawless. It takes the transferred DV file and re-encodes ("captures") to something else on the fly.
    There are others, but this is probably the best one.

    I tested a few (PowerVCR, Ulead MPEG Now, a couple others I can't remember) a year or 2 ago and NONE came close to my USB1.1 InstantDVD unit on my Athlon 1800+. A couple wouldn't do DVD resolution at all, and the ones that did needed to be set to lowest quality so the CPU could keep up in real time.

    I recently tested MC's 1.4 in my newer Athlon 3200+ against my newer Hauppauge PCI capture card (which handily beats the InstantDVD). The MC quality slider works in real time up to 30 (out of 50), and looks close to the PCI card (but not quite...). Audio sync is actually a bit better in the MC software (the PCI card gives the audio a slight but perceptible delay - maybe 70-ish ms or 2 frames' worth.

    So, if you have a fast PC, real time software is beginning to look viable.

    edit: BTW, this was at a bitrate of 4000. I wanted to work the encoders a bit, and realtime encoding would most likely be done for VHS tapes so I wanted a rate that would fit 2 hrs per disc. I didn't test at higher bitrates, and it's very possible that at, say, 6000 there may be no visible difference at all.
    I have an athlon 3200+ and set the real time slider up to 50 with a vbr of 8000 and looks EXCELLENT!

    I have also encoded the same movie file from my dv cam to dv avi and encoded it with TMPGEnc encoder and cannot tell the difference from real time mpeg2 capture with MC and encoding with TMPGEnc

    Safe to say that real time mpeg2 capture is a GREAT way to save some time and get fantastic quality!!!!

    I say if you have the cpu power, use MC to capture real-time mpeg2 with the quality setting at 50 (instead of 30, thats too low), and you have a yourself a great looking peice of video!

    I also hear the Canopus MPEG Pro MVR has a DV input and can capture to mpeg2 via HARDWARE in real time! It cost $500, but I think it may be worth it. Does anybody have experience with this card?
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  16. Originally Posted by Zeek
    Most of you guys seem to feel the "after" way would be better, though (for encoding, that is) - so guess I'll probably stick with that.
    I always wonder if this is because more people do it this way because they haven't tried on the fly MPEG-2 capture yet...
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    WinDVD Recorder has the capability to record directly to MPEG2. It has a 14 day trial, so you can check it out without financial penalty.

    MC1.4 does a nice job, and with the capability of buffering, you don't have to worry about dropping frames. The conversion will, however, take some time to "catch up" once you are done.

    With the buffering off, MC is going right to MPEG2 on the disk. It reports dropped frames, so you can fiddle with the rate settings and the quality settings and see if your system holds together. Quality seems to have the largest impact on dropping, at least in my experience.

    Another cool thing about MC is that the DV capture will use any recordable codec that is installed on your system. You don't have to go to MPEG --- you could select huffy, DivX, whatever. With non-MPEG codecs, you can also select various audio codecs on your system.

    With buffering on, if you've got the disk space and the time, you don't have to worry about dropped frames.

    With buffering off, my XP2400 can only get to just below 20 in quality before it drops frames in clumps. In spite of the lower quality setting, the results are usable for quick-n-dirty VHS-quality captures.

    Of course, direct to MPEG comes with the normal detractions. Editing is not as elegant as with AVI files, and if you miss on the bitrate estimation and make a file that is too large, you've got more of an issue. Plus, once you make the settings decision, you can never go back and try to squeeze more quality out of the clip -- it is what it is.
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    MrMungus: Yeah, I've actually thought the same thing myself. I'm going to try both, as I said, and I'll report back afterward. My good VCR is in the shop (see our other thread), so I'll probably wait until I'm back on track with that to do the testing. Meanwhile, gotta go play with filtering and some of the other toys to see if I can get a clue.

    Perro Grande: Good information, thank you! I actually grabbed MC 1.4 and have it in front of me. One thing I'm a little foggy on: When you say "buffering off", I'm not sure that I see what you mean. I DO see the ability to set the buffer size (Advanced Video Settings--> Sequence Header-->VBV Buffer Size)...is that what you mean? How would one "turn off" the buffering would be the better question, I guess. I'd imagine setting that value to 0 would do the trick, but I'm lost there. I also see a "drop-frame rate" and a "non drop-frame rate" in the settings. Could you explain these to me pls? Either that, or I can just go back to good old TMPEGnc.

    All: If we ASS-U-ME that I'll be doing MPEG encoding after the fact, I'll be needing to decide on VBR vs CBR and also on number of passes. What are you guys generally doing? Can't imagine a multi-pass/VBR situation happening on the fly (this is why I say after the fact), but I don't know. Do the same options apply? Seems like an awful lot of work to be happening on the fly though. Just curious. Anyway, mainly what I'd like to know is if multi-pass and VBR are worth it. And if so, how many passes? CCE allows up to 3, I blv.

    And lastly, could someone please enlighten me on the difference between rendering, encoding and transcoding? I THINK that rendering/encoding are the same thing and involve changes to a file that don't result in a new file type whereas, in transcoding, the changes do result in a different kind of file. Yes? No? Please post your answers/flames/kicks in the ass here please.
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    Hi Zeek,

    The buffering is a check-box option, not a value.

    If you go to the CAPTURE menu, click SETUP, then select the CAPTURE tab, in the compression section (just below where you select a codec) will be the enable buffering checkbox.

    If this box is checked, MC will buffer the incoming video to your HDD and then the encoder will catchup at the end of the capture session. If this is not checked, the encoder will write the compressed video directly to the hard drive -- dropping frames when and if it gets behind.

    And yes, you are correct -- when going "live" (buffering or no) you don't have the option to do 2-pass. Anything else that slows down the codec (like heavy NR, real high encoder quality settings, etc) puts you at risk of dropping frames.

    You can do either CBR or VBR, too. MC will try to estimate the size (# MB per minute) in either case. Experiment with both to see which best serves a particular need. Also, it is a valuable exercise to experiment with the encoder quality setting, NR Threshold, NR Level, Motion Search Method vs. dropped frames. You might be able to set the Encoder Quality slightly higher if you back off on NR settings (raise threshold, lower NR value). If you leave buffering on, you can set these to more agressive values and let the capture program spool off stuff to disk...

    Drop frame vs. Non-Drop Frame refers only to the frame-numbering methodology used. It makes no difference in quality. Most NTSC stuff is drop-frame numbered, but there is no golden rule to this.
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    Thanks, Perro Grande. You're huge help.

    And - if anyone could tell me if I'm at least in the ballpark on my definitions (see last post), that'd be great. I'm a little confused because changes made to an avi file in V-Dub result in, if I remember correctly, "re-rendering". I know from reading and from personal experience that multiple encodes mean lost data and potentially lousy outcome, so I just want to be sure I'm not hurting myself by '"encoding" through changes made in V-Dub (filters, borders, whatever) and then encoding again for conversion to mpeg-2. Ayyeee! Man - there is a lot to learn with this stuff.
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    A quick tip that might help those experimenting with MC on-the-fly to MPEG (unbuffered).

    Go into the task manager and raise the priority of the mcmpgenc.exe process to HIGH. This will give this task more priority than some other stuff running on the system.

    Also -- stop any ancillary crap (virus scans, etc) running on the system. These things may help you squeeze out more aggressive encoder settings without dropping frames.

    *****
    I'll do my best on these terms. If someone has better definitions, please chime in.

    Transcoding refers to changing the format of a file (ie AVI to MPEG). Loss may or may not be involved in this process.

    Re-Encoding leaves the format the same (MPEG-MPEG). This is frequently used to reduce the size or bitrate of a file. If a lossy algorithm is involved, further loss will occur. (ie. Shrinking stuff to fit on a single DVD-R from a dual-layer disc).

    Encoding generically refers to placing data in a specific format. When you organize video frames, for example, in a specific way with certain characteristics, you are encoding. Encoding may be lossless and uncompressed (DV), Lossless and compressed (Huffy), or Lossy and (by definition) compressed (MPEG, DivX, etc).

    Rendering, as I've always heard and used the term (apart from rendering lard, of course) refers to computer-generated content and the act of creating frames with proper 3d perspective, lighting, shadows, etc.

    I frequently hear the term "rendering" being used where the proper term might be transcoding or even encoding.

    **********

    CBR / VBR / Multipass...

    I think this debate has been an ongoing one on here. I always recommend people try all the various methods available. The results seem to depend on the source, the settings, and the person making the decision. Personally, if time is not an object, I prefer 2-pass VBR with fairly aggressive encoder settings. Your mileage may vary
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    Thanks, man...clear and concise.
    You are invaluable.

    I owe you 10 of whatever you are drinking.

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    I also hear the Canopus MPEG Pro MVR has a DV input and can capture to mpeg2 via HARDWARE in real time! It cost $500, but I think it may be worth it. Does anybody have experience with this card?
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  24. Originally Posted by awhitney
    I also hear the Canopus MPEG Pro MVR has a DV input and can capture to mpeg2 via HARDWARE in real time! It cost $500, but I think it may be worth it. Does anybody have experience with this card?
    A $100 - $150 Hauppauge card or ADS device will do the same thing.
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    the Hauppage wintv PVR250 and 350 don't have firewire to do hardware mpeg2 encoding
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  26. Originally Posted by awhitney
    I have an athlon 3200+ and set the real time slider up to 50 with a vbr of 8000 and looks EXCELLENT!

    I have also encoded the same movie file from my dv cam to dv avi and encoded it with TMPGEnc encoder and cannot tell the difference from real time mpeg2 capture with MC and encoding with TMPGEnc
    Yeah, mine is really a 2500+ that's clocked up. My display shows "3200+" but I think it's really more like a 3000+ to 3100+. I still think I should get higher than 30 on the slider, given your results, so I'll have to play with the thread priority.

    Bit rate is the biggest variable. That's why I tested at a low one, but it's good to know that MC does so well at high ones.
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  27. Originally Posted by awhitney
    the Hauppage wintv PVR250 and 350 don't have firewire to do hardware mpeg2 encoding
    Why would they need Firewire to do hardware MPEG-2 encoding? You plug your analog outputs into the card.
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  28. The term "MPEG" means the file can be captured with *user defined* properties that may not be DVD compliant.

    The term "DVD" assures the captured file is compliant with DVD disc standards.

    Yes - the incoming DV stream is transcoded to the MPEG-2 file format when an OHCI compliant IEEE 1394 (FIREWIRE) card is utilized for capture.

    This feature can yield very high quality - but it is processor-intensive.

    Ulead's MPEG.Now codec is based on the MainConcept SDK.

    I have sustained one-hour captures at 9000kbps video bitrate using an AMD Athlon XP2000+ system (1.67ghz).

    There is not much difference between a hardware encoder and a software encoder when you really think about it.

    A hardware encoder is a software-encoder-embedded-within-hardware.

    Jerry Jones
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    Originally Posted by Zeek
    UVS somehow gives me the option to save my files as MPEG ("MPEG" or "DVD", actually), which is confusing me. Is the program somehow using my CPU's to encode on the fly as the file transfer is occuring?
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    Originally Posted by MrMungus
    Originally Posted by awhitney
    the Hauppage wintv PVR250 and 350 don't have firewire to do hardware mpeg2 encoding
    Why would they need Firewire to do hardware MPEG-2 encoding? You plug your analog outputs into the card.
    i've come to the conclusion that hardware on the fly mpeg2 capture is better than software on the fly mpeg2 capture.

    I have the hauppage wintv 250 and when capturing from an anolog source, it looks fantastic! Hardware encoding makes a difference!

    Since the canopus card has a firewire input and it has hardware mpeg2 encoding, I would assume I would get better quality compared to software mpeg2 encoding.

    Just wondering if anybody has any experience with the Canopus MPEG Pro MVR.
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    I tend to agree that right now, the hardware options probably are a bit better in terms of quality. I have not yet been able to match the quality of my Panasonic set-top unit with on-the-fly MPEG conversion in software. But this, afterall is the way of things. Our computers are extremely generalized while the hardware devices are tuned explicity to do one thing.

    On another note, my XP 2700 machine has also had good results doing live DV to DivX. too. Arguably, the results to DivX have been better than to MPEG2, but alas, I have nothing that can play DivX other than my computer

    In theory, any combination of codec/settings that you can get >= 30 frames per second transcoding from disk should be usable "live" with the same, or nearly the same settings.
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