DVD-R as a master for replication

[sdsumike619]

I am going to be producing music instruction DVDs. Some replication houses accept a burned DVD-R as an alternative to a DLT to use as a master if it's DVD5.

My question is this: What is the BEST way to go about producing this master with respect to bitrate, burning speed, burning program, DVD-R brand, etc so that it will have as few errors as possible to be a good master for replication?

For example, on another forum, I read that it's best to encode the mpg2 at no more than 7000 kb/s as with higher bitrates, if there are errors, the decoder has less time to fix them..Is this accurate? I encoded one clip at 6000 and another at the max, 9800 and I could see no difference in the quality, but saved a lot of space...

That's just one thing, that's the type of things I'm looking for to avoid errors and ensure a higher % compatibility..

All input is greatly appreciated!!

[sdsumike619]

[BJ_M]

dont bump your posts --

if you supply a dvd-r as a master -- they will have to ussually move to another format anyway ...

depends on the duplication facility -- some will take the project on firewire drives which is better than dvd-r and can do dual layer that way , DLT is still required at many places ..

burn a disk at 1x , use an apple brand disk ..

the bitrate is not going to cause an error on mass produced disks (as long as within specs) ...

if you do burn a disk -- use dvdinfo or something to check for errors)

make more than one copy ..

test test test and test again ...

[jzaman]

How will you be producing this DVD? Are you using an authoring package like Tmpgenc DVD Author or Ulead MovieFactory 3 or Ulead DVD Workshop 2? The answer to your question is relative to the package you utilize. For example, moviefactory 3 provides the templates, encoding choices and burn engine in one package. Combine an all in one package with a good burner such as a pioneer 105,106, or 107 and name brand media such as TDK or Ritek at 2x or 4x and you will be in business. For bitrate, shoot for an average bitrate of 5000 and a max of 8000 for a high quality tutorial master.

[sdsumike619]

I'm using Vegas 4.0 for the video editing, with their main concept encoder (I know the main concept one is not the best, but I'm using it so I can use the batch render scripts in Vegas), along with DVDWS2 for the DVD authoring...I heard it's better not use the burning facility in DVDWS2, but to instead write the.iso image and burn with another program such as RecordNow MAX...As I've come to understand through research, the DLT is only REQUIRED if the DVD is not a regular DVD5,,,, it's it's double layer, etc, then the DLT is required,,, also the DLT is required for any kind of copy protection, which is not needed for my projects. So the apple discs are good? I also heard good things about Ritek.... Does the burner make a big differnece? I picked up a cheap $130 one at Fry's , the brand is Emprex and it hasn't burned any coasters yet, seems to work fine...

[BJ_M]

Riteks are great -- i use 1000's and 1000's of them -- but when i master , its almost always on DLT Tape OR on Apple 2x (dark blue dye) disks OR with my scsi based pioneer 201 burner (a true mastering burner - in fact the only one of its type, though i dont use it much anymore) ...

personally -- i would get a pioneer 106 or 105 for mastering use - and not a "cheapie" , but maybe that is because i do it professionaly ...

the main concept encoder in vegas is better than what you think - at higher bit rates it does a excellent job , though there better - it is true ..
you can always frame serve out of vegas anyway ..

[sdsumike619]

Yeah I know about the frame serving, but I have my timeline divided up into several regions, and I like the batch render script that will encode all the regions with one click,, I don't know how to accomplish that using frame serving with a different encoder, is there a way? Any specific type of Ritek (dye color, etc)? And the Apple 2x - better than Ritek for making a DVD-R master? I'll have to see about the drive, looking around I'm seeing a Pioneer 107 all over ebay, is that the newest one?

[BJ_M]

ritek g03 or g04 .... both ok .. there seems to be different grades of these though ...


pioneer 105, 106 both very ok also -- 107 not required ... your not burning these at 8x anyway ..

even a 104 pioneer is a really good burner --


as for frame serving using script like you are doing -- no idea

[sdsumike619]

checked out that DVRS-201 Pioneer burner, that thing is almost $4000 , a tad out of my range, for now anyways....Another idea someone mentioned was to just buy an external firewire drive and to just send that to the replication plant with the files on it , is this a common practice? Or is it better to just get the 105 or 106 with the Apple or Ritek media and make several masters to send to them? As far as that goes, do you have any reccomendations for a replication/duplication plant that you use? Thanks for all your help, I am really learning a lot !

[sdsumike619]

ahh, another thing,, this pioneer 201 that you mentioned, it uses the DVD for authoring media - does that actually make the DVD better? I read that the only reason to use that is for copy protection data that can't be burned with a regular consumer DVD burner, is this accurate? When a plant says they'll accept a DVD-R as a master, that means that a DVD-R for General use is acceptable? Or do they mean authoring media?

[BJ_M]

there are no bit errors (or crc) on a 201 ... its a pristine copy ..

but only holds 3.95gigs

always check with a plant on exactly what they will except and in what format .. make sure you have copyright clearances if nessessary ...

i suggested the firewire drive -- yes, some will accept that ...

as for plants -- check around .. what i use will not deal in small quanities and are pretty expensive ... you can do a search on google ...

[sdsumike619]

ok, so as far as the best general use burner to go with, I should stick with any of the pioneer models 104,105,106,,, what are the A04, A05, are they different?

[BJ_M]

they are the same -- 1 comes with a box and stuff , the other doesnt ..

[disturbed1]

The DVRS-201 creates what is called a Cutting Master Format disc. Check with a few replicators before you buy your equipment, or buy your equipment and search for a replicator that supports this equipment. All will support DLT and DVD CMF formats. If they do support DVD-R, some require more than one copy, and don't guarantee against errors.

Ulead DVD Workshop 2 supports writing to a DLT Drive. Ebay usually has a few Compaq units pretty cheap. If you team this with a Pioneer A05/A06, it would be your best bet. Quick 1 off copies for proofing in house, then output to DLT tapes to ship to the replicator, and project storage.

DVD Workshop 2 also has the option for copy protection (Macrovision) which can add to your projects from a consumer standpoint. Both CMF and DLT support this, but DVD-R nor DVD+R support this.

Check with the replicator to make sure they actually press the discs. Some companies only duplicate to DVD-R.

The 104/105/106 doesn't have the Pioneer logo on the disc Tray, and come without (or in a blank) box. The A04/A05/A06 are retail editions in a colorfull box with software. Both have the same guts. The A04/A05 are the same/close price as the A06.

[sdsumike619]

compaq? You mean the computer manufacturer? I didn't know they make DLT drives, then again, I am new to all of this,,,, what specific type or model of DLT do I need?

[BJ_M]

they dont make them -- quantum (or tandberg) does .. but compaq sells them under them own name ..

ussually a dlt 4000 or 7000 is prefered .. and most common ..

they are not cheap and the tapes are expensive .. but we use them all the time for a varity if things ...

[sdsumike619]

they're not cheap? what about this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2790778299&category=39978

is this one no good for und $200? Are there certain specs to look for when buying one? i.e., do I need a special DLT for the purpose of DVD mastering from DVDWS2 ?

mike

[BJ_M]

i have one of these on my desk - btw, they are scsi only ...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2790651704&category=39978


we have about 10 of these models

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2790686101&category=39978

this one would work also

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2791683927&category=39978

[BJ_M]

they're not cheap? what about this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2790778299&category=39978

is this one no good for und $200? Are there certain specs to look for when buying one? i.e., do I need a special DLT for the purpose of DVD mastering from DVDWS2 ?

mike

i would not get that one becuase they dont tell you how many head hours are on it..... its also internal and not a standard size -- external models are a lot less fuss ...

[freestyler]

there are no bit errors (or crc) on a 201 ... its a pristine copy ..

but only holds 3.95gigs

i suggested the firewire drive -- yes, some will accept that ...

The S201 supports both 4.7 and 3.95gb authoring media - the S-101 only supports 3.95gb.

With regards to sending them a drive, you'll be lucky if you get the drive back! It's a pain in the ass getting back DLT tapes ALONE with MANY replicators...

In your case I would burn a disk (using decent media, Ritek will work) and then rip the disc - and if you don't get any errors while ripping and you dont find any oddities/problems when testing the ripped content thereafter, I'd go ahead and send that general disc to the replicator.

They will report back with any data errors.

[BJ_M]

your right - it supports 4.7 .. my disks for this are all Book Ver.1.0 type and i never tried ver. 2 disks

[sdsumike619]

forgive my ignorance, but how is a DLT better than a DVD-R ? Both are digital but, isn't tape always more prone to error? Freestyler, what program should I get to rip the disc? Also, I nabbed this little utility called Philips DVD-Video Verifier 1.5.0 and you can use to to check the disc for errors and all kinds of stuff I don't get,,, when I run it, it shows a ton of errors, yet the disc works,,, do you know anything about this program? I can give it to you if you want,, seems very high end to me!

[disturbed1]

There's no need to give, I already bought the license. It isn't free.

The errors are explained. Some are warnings, and some are serious errors. There's a 189 page cross referenced PDF included. If your authoring package is giving errors, contact the authors and work with them to get it fixed.

Here's an example of an error explained in the PDF


>>>[DVD]ERROR 5505 (ref. ISO 6.7.1.1):
ERR_ISO_NO_PVD
At least one Primary Volume Descriptor must be defined in the VRA ([ISO] 6.7.1.1).

If you don't understand some of the terms, or if it's a little fuzzy, I've found that www.google.com seems to clear most up.

[sdsumike619]

Yep, I have the pdf,,, soooooooooo confusing...Are you saying I shouldn't be getting all these errors that come up?, there's 1000s of them,,,What are errors that are serious? how much does the program cost, and do they give support for it?

[BJ_M]

its $500

http://www.licensing.philips.com/ordering/soft/documents305.html

[disturbed1]

1000's isn't good. Tmpg DVD Author only generates 3-5 errors and 1-3 warnings.

The errors aren't that serious, one is the PVD error I posted above. But even Maestro generates warnings, quite a few when you use the playlist feature. Never seen 1000's

The DVD verifier is much like the SVCD verifier. It looks for 100% compliant discs.

I've ran a few Laser Pacific (Freddy Vs. Jason, Next Friday, and Friday After Next) and they all had a couple of errors and warnings. Eventhough Laser Pacific uses an industry standard verifier and more than likely doesn't contain any serious compatibility errors.

Once you get more familar with the DVD Spec and jargon, you'll be able to better understand what's being logged by the program.

As long as you're using a major authoring package (Reel DVD, DVD it!, Scenarist, Maestro, Spruce UP) everything should be fine. These all have a proven Commercial track record, the new comers (TDA, Ulead, Encore, DVD Studio Pro) may or may not contain authoring errors. In MY opinion .

FYI, Cyberlink's PowerProducer 2 Gold, was certified by the DVD Forum to produce 100% compatible discs Too bad it contains MyDVD wizzard style authoring.

[BJ_M]

i get these two errors all the time with maestro -- doesnt seem to effect anything:



>>> [DVD] ERROR 3460 (ref. DVD-3 5.4.1.2-1) :
picture_header: vbv_delay value (0xFA6D) must be 0xFFFF for DVD
for video sequence (0) at byte 101 bit 5;
PES ($E0) byte 123 (byte 123 of packet 0);
byte 137 of pack 1 (PS stream byte 2185).
>>> DVD ERROR 3460 will no longer be reported !


>>> [MPEG] ERROR 1697 (ref. MPEG Video C.3.1) :
Actual bit_rate 2.16137 Mbit/s exceeds maximum bit_rate 2 Mbit/s
as specified in sequence header and sequence extension
for video sequence (0) at byte 9576 bit 0;
PES (0xE0) byte 9634 (byte 1498 of packet 4);
byte 1512 of pack 6 (PS stream byte 13800).
>>> MPEG ERROR 1697 will no longer be reported !

[sdsumike619]

Are you saying Ulead DVD Workshop 2.0 (that was just released a few weeks ago) doesn't produce 100% compatible discs?

[disturbed1]

1697 is always reported on dummy _0.VOBs for me. I think 1697 is because Maestro states that the dummy VOB contains a 2Mbit/s video stream, but the Philips measured bitrate is higher. In non dummy VOBs this doesn't appear for me.

3460 - the length of time the picture start code is stored in buffer before it's decoded. I guess Philips is expecting a solid consitant value (perhaps different GOP type/length?) and isn't getting it. What's your take on this?




Not exactly. Just depends on what the errors are. Could be your authoring, or just the Verifier being picky. When you say 1000's of errors, are there 1000's of different errors, or is it reporting a couple of errors 500 times each?

DVD Workshop 2 should be compliant. After all, it is macrovision certified, but 2 weeks could be just enough, or not enough, time to find the bugs. Only time and testing will tell. Look at Encore, and DVDSP. Though DVDSP's major flaws were corrected with DVDSP2, minus some DVD9 and CSS issues that can be worked around.

[BJ_M]

i havent looked into "vbv_delay value (0xFA6D) must be 0xFFFF for DVD" to much because i know my VBV buffers are fine (checked with m-probe) .. i will always re-encode if i see any under or overflows .. more an issue with HD TS streams though ...

i think the reported error is a pack issue when maestro multiplexes -- it is using its own buffer value which may not be within spec ... but clearly it never caused a problem ..

I got a ISO today which was authored on scenarist .. it report about 5000 errors -- almost all the same -- a time slew thing and and few other things (i didn't author it -- was just duplicating it) ... funny thing is that this disk would not play on 75% of machines.. it was under 2 gigs ...
i had them re-author it and also pad it to 3 gigs and it then played on everything ... though still shows 1000+ of same type errors ..

meanwhile a disk authored in maestro under 2 gigs -- ive never had a issue with ... seems to be a weirdness in scenarist ..