We started having our products replicated recently after having duplicated for several years. My hopes were that in going to replication, there would be no more calls/emails from customer saying their DVD would not play. This is not the case. While the number of customers calling in to report this isn't a lot, it is still annoying.
I authored these DVDs with Adobe Encore CS3 and submitted a burned DL verbatim disc as my master. There were no issues brought to my attention with using a DVD master instead of DLT. The disc passed whatever testing they put it through and it works fine for the vast majority of the customers.
One recent instance had me baffled and leads me to consider a possible cause: A customer purchased two products, one came with one DVD and the other came with two DVDs (dvd-5 and dvd-9). The products were replicated months apart so they weren't part of the same run. The customer said that none of the 3 DVDs played. We shipped him replacements and he wrote in and said that all 3 played without a problem. Is it POSSIBLE that something can happen to DVDs while in the mail to render them defective? We sent him a paid return envelope to ship the "defective" discs back, so I'm waiting on that.
In previous times, customers reported bad discs that sent them back to us and I've been able to play every single disc, duplicated or replicated that they sent back as defective, in my Sony dvd player which is a few years old now..
Hope someone can shed some light on this because it is driving me craaaaaaaaaaazy!
AFAIK, no. At least if there is no physical damage to the DVD itself from the mailing process, such as scratches or overheating. You won't probably know till your receive the problem discs. But if they are unplayable, and apparently undamaged, either bad bunch of blanks, error in creation or error on the part of the customer would be my guess. Especially where the replacement discs seem to work.Is it POSSIBLE that something can happen to DVDs while in the mail to render them defective?
Well I'm sure stuff can get pretty hot in a mail truck but I don't know, it doesn't seem likely that heat would render the disc useless. Fortunately, having to send replacements isn't expensive. I just thought that going to replication would eliminate this chore.
Crappy press materials exist, and those are very much subject to the "batch" issue (unlike dye-based media, which is more myth than reality). Go buy 10 of those $1 discs from Walmart, and tell me if all 10 play. I bet they don't. A number of presses have been recalled or silently replaced due to sucky materials. The first Hulk DVDs and the Time-Life Get Smart DVDs come to mind.
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The replication house I use will send a few extras in a bulk order, as they were clear that occasionally a small number of discs in the batch may not have been stamped out perfectly. Not all replicators take the same quality-control measures. But as for one customer having problems with 3 different discs--that sounds like a problem on the user's end. With that said, I am somewhat troubled about using a double-layer disc as a master. (My company always submits DLT tape, but I know that's not possible for a lot of people.) If you need DVD-9s made, you might want to try to obtain a DLT drive for your masters.
What make and model DLT should I buy to use with Encore if I decide to go that route? It looks like I had a misconception that replication is replication no matter where it gets done. I thought that since the discs are created on the spot that they would all be the same.
I can't really offer advice on purchasing DLT drives these days. My company purchased Quantum 4000s several years ago, and those are still in use. Honestly, I don't know what's available right now. You'll just have to search around. As for replication factories, some may have cleaner environments than others; some may have better disc stamping equipment than others. An errant piece of dust can find its way to a disc or two during pressing. Discs can be damaged during shipping from the replicator to you. Also, if you are not packing them well when you ship to your customers, they can dislodge in their cases and get scratched up. It happens.
My experience has been that the problem is with the end user. Send them another copy and all is OK. You could send them the same copy and it would probably be OK.
"One recent instance had me baffled". Makes no sense, because it is probably a user problem. Just keep humoring them and they go away. Send them another.
I'm a little late to this, but just a couple of quick comments...
Some customers are idiots. Nothing you can do will ever work because they are too stupid anyway.
Some customers have DVD players that are 5+ years old and miraculously still work, but given the age they are less and less tolerant of media over time.
I'm not sure at all what the difference is between "replication" and "duplication" (I wish you had specified) but if the final result you are sending out is a burnable disc (DVD-R or DVD+R including DL discs) and NOT a pressed disc, you are ALWAYS going to have somebody with an old or oddball bitchy player that won't play your discs. If you have pressed media, it should theoretically play everywhere, but again, I suppose that there is always the chance that some customer has some old player and that's the real problem, not your media.
Were the Verbatims used MIS, MII or maybe a combination of the two? MIS are better quality, and using some MII might explain the problem.
Pressed discs = replication
I have no idea what MIS and MII are? Please explain?
Thanks for the definition sdsumike619.
MIS means Made In Singapore. MII means Made In India. I think it's a red herring, but bevills1 is asking if your master DL discs was MII or MIS media. There is MUCH bitching here about the MII media. I have used Verbatim MII and they have all been fine for me, but some here have reported problems with them. However, if you had bad MII media, I don't think the pressing plant would accept it as a master. I am assuming that you turned in a DVD+R DL disc. If you used DVD-R DL, I don't know where those are made as those discs are expensive and not easily obtainable (I've only seen 3 packs for sale whereas you can buy 25 packs of DVD+R DL discs).
I would just blame the problem either on idiot consumers or old players.
If a press disc won't play and there's no manufacturing defect, it's an issue on the customer side. Either they don't know how to play it or their player is defective. I guess the bottom line is that somebody somewhere isn't going to be smart enough to play your disc and they are always going to blame you for it.
Thanks for the clarification. I just looked at the pack and it's made in India. Verbatim DVD+R DL
This isn't an issue of people using older players, at least not all of them. One has told me he tried to play it in a brand new Mac, another guy said he tried to play it in a new portable. Of the 160 of the 1000 that I've already sent out, there's been about 4 or so reports of defective discs. Which isn't all that horrible, just wasn't expecting it at all.
It's frustrating when they say "All my other DVDs work", "never had a problem" and so on. Then you think they might just be wanting a refund but that's not the case. Oh well..
sdsumike619,
One possibility might be what's described on this page:In your case, substitute "Verbatim dvd+rdl" wherever the quote says "DVD-R".(We can also use a DVD-R for mastering but be aware that the finished replicated product will be an exact copy of the DVD-R, including the format. It is likely that this product will not run on old drives due to the format of the DVD-R not being recognised by the old drives. It is for this reason that whenever possible, you should supply DLT masters).
Using the "DVD Players" list here at VideoHelp, 26% of the listed players (where compatibility was noted) are incompatible with dvd+rdl. How that number would change if we knew if bitsetting was used, and the number of failures due to using inferior media, is unknown. Some compatibility problems would likely still remain...we just don't know the numbers.
Interesting...I thought that was only the case for duplication because it's the burned media. In other words, I didn't consider the finished replicated DVD as a DVD+R DL since it is not burned but instead pressed from the master.
Hmmmm... that's interesting. Filed away in my vast array of almost useless knowledge. If that's true it seems kinda pointless to get discs pressed if you're only going to get a "pressed R disc".
Having a hard time following this thread. Why are recordable discs being discussed here?
A pressed disc is metal. Pressed metal. It's not burned.
A DVD-9 needs to be submitted on DLT.
A DVD-5 needs to be submitted on one of several formats: DVD-R(A), DVD-R(G), DVD+R, DLT, few others
This doesn't make any sense either:
"We can also use a DVD-R for mastering but be aware that the finished replicated product will be an exact copy of the DVD-R, including the format. It is likely that this product will not run on old drives due to the format of the DVD-R not being recognised by the old drives" -------- never heard that.
I've worked with presses for a while now, get a number of runs per year, never have issues. Verbatim DVD-R is commonly the master. Or a Taiyo Yuden DVD+R booktyped to DVD-ROM. Sometimes both, just in case.
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Lordsmurf,
I was told by my replicator that they can accept a Verbatim DVD+R DL for a DVD-9 project. And that is what I submitted. I don't know what they did from the time they got my master until the time I had the finished project in my hand, but they replicated 1000 discs from what I gave to them.
I've replicated with some mfg plants that require DLT for everything, some that require DLT for DVD-9s (and/or CSS) but burned discs for DVD-5s, and some that require DLT for CSS only (whether 9 or 5), but allow DVD±R(W) DL for 9s and SL for 5s, as well as External HDs as sources.
That business about DVD-Rs copying their format is BS! All DVD readers ONLY output 2048byte/sector USER data blocks in the program area (IOW: does not include leadin-which would have booktype-, or sector ID-which would have data recordability type and layer #, etc). Basically, this just includes the UDF filesystem in sector-by-sector order or in a DiscImage format. The one area where I would VERY much recommend using DLT or HD as opposed to optical disc recordables is in the possibility of bit read errors that get past the error correction--but a replication plant should be able to flag this, plus most masters are provided as 2 copies, so the chance is miniscule.
AFA the original topic question, replication could be 100%, but it isn't guaranteed. 99.5% sure. I mean, I've returned 3 or 4 pressed Hollywood titles because of something funky in the batch. You got to remember replication plants don't QC every disc--they check periodic samples during each run.
Scott
Now I'm considering getting a DLT for the next project just to see if I get any calls about not being able to play the resulting DVDs... What does a DLT cost? I'm using Adobe Encore CS3 so I would need one that works perfectly with that software..
I think this is a bad decision, unless you're persistent on doing DVD-9 presses.Originally Posted by sdsumike619
If you only do DVD-5, then use Verbatim DVD-R as master, and consider a different replication house. I suggest www.NewCyberian.com. The presses I've gotten to date have been absolutely gorgeous materials, no visible or otherwise detectable flaws.
An issue to remember is if the disc is not "full enough", some lasers will fail to pickup that it has data present. XBOX Thomson drives are one example, requiring a 1GB minimum. I believe a 1GB lead-out is in the spec, but dumping dummy data is better in my opinion. Just take a source video file, divide it into 500MB chunk, and add a few of them in a folder called "BLANK_DATA" at the root level, and name each file FILLER1.DAT, FILLER2.DAT, etc. I don't know that this applies to DVD9 presses, but it might for some crappy machines.
Your original problem in the top post sounds mostly like user error by the customer. DVD lasers die, and it's the most logical reason given the limited available information.
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Cornucopia,
I suggest you take a look at the post by Trai Forrester in this thread, which includes the following:Some people like Trai, some don't, but I've never seen anyone claim he doesn't know what he's talking about. His business includes replication error troubleshooting.Also, there's countless replicated DVDs out there that are identifying themselves to players as DVD Recordables in the lead-in area, which is risked anytime any playable DVD is presented for replication. This has gotten much better, due to upgrades in the Eclipse Suite, which will reconstruct a proper lead-in from a 'playable' recordable disc, upon transfer of the data to the replicators' server. But lot's of replicators are still using ancient copies of Eclipse, or are not using Eclipse, and are still transferring the recordables glossed over lead-in data onto the stamped master!
Vegasbud, I'm going to call the place that made the glass master tomorrow hopefully. What version of Eclipse should they be using?
sdsumike619,
As of a year and a half ago, Adobe recommended only the Quantam DLT 4000 or DLT 8000 (see here). I don't know if that's changed since that document was released, but that's the most recent reference I could find. It would probably be best to contact Adobe, before you spend any money, to find out what they currently recommend. While you're at it, you should probably contact your replicator to make sure what they support.
You also might be interested in reading Trai's post that I linked to in my previous post. One section says:Offhand, I don't know the minimum version of Eclipse required to rule out the possibility of the first problem. I'll see what I can find, and get back to you. Of course, if you do decide to change over to using dlt for submission, the version of Eclipse being used isn't so important.For instance, I've been getting some replicated DVDs in here output from Adobe Encore, identifying themselves in the Nav Packs as DVD Recordables - with thousands of errors and playback problems! It turns out, If you let Encore format the recordable as a playable DVD, and then submit that for replication, it's "Adaptation ID" stating 'DVD Recordable' it stripes in all the VOBs Nav Packs, are dutifully transfered by the replicator onto the master; not pretty.
I just read that whole thread.. wow. I wasn't aware of any of this.. Here's a question for you. Is there a way I can check my replicated DVDs for the identification info mentioned by Trai? Does Trai run a replication house?
sdsumike619,
As far as I know, his main business is currently TFDVD Research Labs, which basically provides content providers with services prior to, and following replication. He's not cheap. For example, for $2000 (the most expensive package) you send him your dvd-9 project, which he tests the heck out of, writes it to dlt, and sends the result to the replicator. After the glass master is made, he analyzes the check disks for errors before the replicator proceeds with production.
Another service is "Replication Job Troubleshooting" for $650 (but if he can't identify the problem, and recommend a solution, there's no charge).
You get the idea. His services are probably well worth the money for larger production runs, even if it's just for peace of mind...but it is pretty pricey for 1000 lot runs.
The website is here. There's a lot of interesting reading at the site, even if you don't need his services. You can also find many posts by him (on various boards) by using google.
I found the site and have been reading since my last post... Man... After reading all the info on his site, I'm terrified to author a DVD ! !
sdsumike619,
In case this is starting to be a can of worms you didn't intend to open, it probably would be a good idea to mention that it's entirely your decision how, or even if, you pursue these matters. I'm sure there are many people who would readily accept a ~2.5% (4 complaints out of 160 distributed) problem, and not pursue the matter any further. As long as you want more information, I'll be happy to provide what I can. If, or when, you've heard enough, I'll be just as happy to let it go. After all, this is VideoHelp.com, not explode-your-brain-with-unnecessary-information-overload.com
I'm still trying to locate the Eclipse version #, but haven't found it yet. I'll keep trying.
As to your question:
...the fields he mentions aren't in any publicly available documents I can find, but I did find this thread where there is a better discussion of the matter. Once again, Trai provides most of the details (since he has the actual dvd specification books, he has access to information that isn't publicly available).Is there a way I can check my replicated DVDs for the identification info mentioned by Trai?
Using the clues he provides, I was able to locate the right spot in a dsi packet, but in the publicly available documents, that location is just labeled as reserved, with no further information about it. Trai does provide the values for the two least significant bits of the field as "00" for DVD-ROM and "01" for Dvd-recordable.
From reading the thread, it appears there is a connected field in the pci packets, and in the VMGI_MAT. How they interact isn't detailed. To keep a long story from getting any longer, without access to the real specifications books, there isn't enough reference material available to even write a program to check/modify it...so, no, there isn't any way to check it yourself.
Since the problem appears to be bypassed by outputting to dlt from Encore...rather than trying to correct the problem, it would be cheaper (and better) to eliminate the introduction of the the problem by using a dlt drive...which would solve other potential problems at the same time. Once again, it's a decision only you can make.
Well considering that I've found new DLT drives online for a few hundred bucks, I'm going to go that route from now on. The thing that will be strange about outputting to a DLT is that I can't sit down and pop the DVD into my player and test everything (that I can test) as I used to do before submitting it as my master.. This is definitely a can of worms that I don't want to open. If writing to DLT will lower my already comparatively low failure rate, then I'm all for it.
The other issue though, is that I recall reading somewhere that Encore has some issues with setting the layer break correctly. This is the reason I was using a guide on the ImgBurn forum about burning a DL DVD with the correct layer break. If I write to DLT, is the layer break issue still a problem or I don't have to worry about that with DLT?
Thanks again for the info..
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