NEWS: Pioneer Lied at CES

[kabanero]

Quote from Doom9.org from February 5, 2004:

"According to CDR-Info, Philips will release version 1.9 of the DVD+R specification tomorrow. The specs include dual layer DVD+R discs and increased navigational flexibility. It seems like the DVD+R camp is set on a spring 2004 release date, whereas the DVD-R camp seems to go a little slower. German computer mag c't recently reported in their print editing that the dual layer DVD-R burner shown at CES was in fact not an A06 with only a firmware upgrade, but that the hardware was modified as well. And Pioneer said that neither the A06 nor A07 could be upgraded to dual layer burning capabilities and that only the A09, due for Christmas 2004 would add dual layer DVD-R support, at 1x speed. In the meantime, there will be an A08 burner that burns DVD-Rs at 12x or 16x (the specs are not yet known), since the A09 will handle single layer DVD-Rs at 16x speed."

Source: http://www.doom9.org/

[The village idiot]

I find it odd that a company would build a prototype of this kind, and then not bring it to market as quickly as possible. I know, there is a lot of testing to be done, but a year from now seems like they will miss the boat on alot of sales. Guess we will wait and see.

[Gazorgan]

1x dual speed? Are they serious? 16x single layer versus 1x dual layer is a no brainer.

Don't forget there are physical issues with the -R format over the +R format. -R has a limit to the pits/lands it makes that really shows up at higher speeds. I would surmise this translates poorly to dual layer, since they seem to be running a year behind.

Or is that just the standards committe fighting over royalties?

[KDH]

It took Pioneer from Nov 2002( launched AO5) to Jan 2004( launched AO7) to go from 4x to 8x DVD-R,so the likelihood of a speed hike to even 12x(AO8) before the end of the year is a little far fetched.

12x DVD+R writers are weeks away in early March at CeBIT 2004.

KDH

[bokkasrealm]

I used to have a semi-emotional attachment to -R when I thought my burner would go somehow obsolete. They are both the exact same technology here so I dont really care anymore as long as I can still use my older discs. The sad thing is that Philips seems to be getting the jump ahead and I really prefer Pioneer over them as far as hardware goes. Can you believe people still argue about - vs. +? It's not Mac's versus PC's. It's DVD vs. DVD with litereally no differences except that of which major corporations will get royalty money.

[quantum_red]

I don't see the part where they "lied"

[drewson99]

I don't see the part where they "lied"

my thoughts exactly!

there must be some more to the back story...?

[tompika]

I don't see the part where they "lied"

my thoughts exactly!

there must be some more to the back story...?

Well, they said they used a Pioneer 106 with a modified firmware.

[drewson99]

now i get it. thx

[kabanero]

I don't see the part where they "lied"

my thoughts exactly!

there must be some more to the back story...?

Here is the back story:

News from Doom9.org from January 13, 2004:

While CES has come to an end, this sounds pretty interesting: According to the Japanese news site AVWatch, Pioneer was showing dual layer DVD-R recording at the show. The most interesting thing about it that they apparently used the well-known A06 burner, only with a different firmware. Until now, it was assumed that only the lasers of the 8x generation were powerful enough to handle dual layer recording. Either way, the dual layer DVD-R standard has not been finalized yet and until it does, Pioneer will not decide on whether the firmware upgrade will be released, or if people will have to buy a new burner to get dual layer capabilities.

Doom9: http://www.doom9.org/Old_news/january04.htm

Here is the link to Japaneese site:

http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/urltrurl?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.watch.impress.c...p=ja_en&tt=url

[Kingnog]

16x single layer versus 1x dual layer is a no brainer.

16x dvd's?

[Nolonemo]

16x single layer versus 1x dual layer is a no brainer.

16x dvd's?

Jeeze, one of my CDRWs is only 8x!!! (My fast one is 12x)

[ice-berg]

dont get your hopes up for the 106 dual writing firmware.
about 10 days ago a german tech magazine addressed the issue, and it said after investigating the issue with pioneer that not only the firmware was upgraded but also the hardware.

sorry to break it down to you.

[jaxxboss]

DUDE!!, that was the whole topic of the thread!! Whats next, you gonna tell us that the world really isnt flat? LOL, sorry, I had to say that, but yea the topic is exactly what you just mentioned.

[rgtaa]

another way to look at is that they didn't LIE!
I mean ... they may have been very excited and showed what they could do ...useing a regular a06 ...then saw ...how everyone would decide to keep the a06 and modify it on their own .... and screw pioneer's plan to get us to GET NEW Burner!

For example: If I showed something because of the hype of CES .... then after PRO Hack Sites started LICKING their CHOPS to start hacking the a06 to make it work on their own ... I would try to get some firm to say it "was a mistake"! Before the hackers discoveried what I had done to make it be dual layered.

Wouldn't you ... if millions of dollars are on the line!

Pioneer's mistake was to keep the a06 on the faceplate they were showing ... and letting a electonic geek show off what they could do!

What I'm writing here is just another possibly way to look at this situation.

[PhilipL]

Withdrawn

[indolikaa]

Somebody call Johnny Cochran...

[forcelite]

To me, this means that Dual layers will not be on shelves till mid-year, if we are lucky.

I really hate how they hype something so big, then tell us we cant buy one.

Its kind of like Sony's robot, the thing is awesome and they always show it off at trade shows, but say its not for sale and if it was it cost as much as a Mercedes. The thing can throw a ball, run, and carry on a conversation in Japanese. Man its so cool.

Force

[dcsos]

Does anyone know
1. If any burning software can be handling dual layers (who will be first?
Roxio-Sonic-Nero?
2. If a dual layer project is ripped to HARD DRIVE, then burned to
DUAL- LAYER blank who wants to bet there will be some trick
that will prevent SETTOP playability from the get go? Or will a
strait across burn play in the settops of the world?

[GreyDeath]

Heh, even if it does come out on time, I wouldn't buy the first generation. I'll wait a bit till they get all the bugs out of the system and possibly a faster drive.

And the blank media will probably be expensive compared to what we're getting now for single layer. *sigh* the steamroller of technology keeps rolling on...

As it is, I just installed my 106 after having it lying around for 3 months, too afraid to f**k up my system...

[kabanero]

Hi rgtaa

I agree, of course Pioneer never lied, they never said anything offically at all!

It was some reporter who said he heard from a demonstrator (maybe not even a Pioneer employee directly!) that the drive just had a firmware upgrade for dual-layer burning. That is like believing me when I say HP is now supporting DVD-RW/DVD-R, woops bad example they are

A report on the internet and lots of wishful thinking later and everyone thinks it was from the horses mouth and was going to happen for real

Kabanero starting this topic is good one, a pro support of +RW/+R (hence the tone of the original topic) who seems to forget how Philips/HP/Ricoh lied about firmware updates for 1st generation owners of +RW writers to allow +R writing. In this case it was from the horses mouth and in many cases even written on the box, HP lost a class action lawsuit for their lies.

I and others had poured cold water on the idea that Pioneer would offer firmware updates for dual-layer on the A06, or even that they could. If it sounds to good to be true, it normally is

Regards

Philip

Here comes the Pioneer troll, or I am sorry, -R/RW fan boy.

[MJPollard]

Here comes the Pioneer troll, or I am sorry, -R/RW fan boy.

I see we've been spending a lot of time at www.potkettleblack.com lately.

[kabanero]

Sorry MJPollard,

I didn't get the point of your post. I am not as "smart" as you are.

[MJPollard]

Don't sell yourself short, kabanero. I have total confidence in your ability to get the joke. Don't give up!

[kabanero]

Don't sell yourself short, kabanero. I have total confidence in your ability to get the joke. Don't give up!

MJPollard,

Usually I understand english/american jokes, but English is my Second Lenguage, and I didn't get those jokes that you linked to.

[forcelite]

I bought an A03, which is a first generation dvd-r, and the thing has been rock solid for years.

I think i might get a first gen dual-layer, if the price is not rediculous and it has decent features

Force

[RabidDog]

What you really need to worry about is whether the 1st gen D/L burners will be able to burn to S/L media, thus forcing you to buy v. expensive media. No present Dvd burner can burn to 2.45gb media.

[dcsos]

well they never could because burners for GENERAL MEDIA were always 4.7

the earlier beasts were AUTHORING MEDIA at 1.0 DVD spec 3.95gigs

the 4.7gig SCSI burners remain downward compatible with the earlier, original AUTHORING MEDIA

[KDH]

What you really need to worry about is whether the 1st gen D/L burners will be able to burn to S/L media, thus forcing you to buy v. expensive media. No present Dvd burner can burn to 2.45gb media.

The Philips drive due in July will write to DVD+R SL at 8x and to DVD+R DL at 2.4x

-specs already published

[Will Hay]

Here comes the Pioneer troll, or I am sorry, -R/RW fan boy.

I see we've been spending a lot of time at www.potkettleblack.com lately.