First Impressions: ADVC-100 & Main Concept 1.4 MPEG Enco

[Will Hay]

I'm looking for a quick alternative to AVI via my ADVC-100, something for which I'm not looking for the best quality possible (which for me is via TMPGEnc).
I figured someone else with a similar setup looking to do the same kind of 'quick fix' might be interested.
Due to time constraints I can't extensively test straight away, but as I update the post maybe others who have tried the same hardware/software configuration could contribute perhaps?

The download of the trail software was easy

Having switched the ADVC-100 on and then started the software the configurtaion settings were very easy.
The ADVC device was seen immediately and even for a relative novice like myself I manged to change the settings to the ones that suited both myself and the source (352 x 576 PAL, 4000CBR).
A five minute test clip produced absolutely no dropped frames whatsoever, and this was despite me being on the net at the same time.
Playback on the PC looked great, but as you all know the ultimate test is a standalone.
I'm going to take three or four different sources (MiniDV, broadcast TV and VHS/VCR to name three), burn to DVD-r and compare the results.
If anyone wants some screenshots of the software that's no problem, but I'm unable to upload screenshots of the footage as...
a) I have an odd colour bleed issue when capturing with the ADVC-100 (which isn't apparent on my standalone DVD player, only during capture)
b) I don't have anything to compare the footage too, obviously!
Will

[Will Hay]

Okay, the tests I did last night were a little disapointing.
Of the four ten minute captures, the first three stopped after three minutes (200 seconds-ish) even though I wasn't working on the machine at all.
Granted, I forgot about virus checkers etc. so will test again tonight.
The fourth test was fine, I've just got to burn to DVD-r now.
(...all tests using the same settings as before, 352 x 576 PAL 4000CBR).
Will

[SatStorm]

I don't have ADVC-100, but I have 2 bt8xx cards and one Nvidia one. I also downloaded the mainconcept 1.4.1 demo and after 3 months of testing (I testing it before version 1.4.1) now I'm ready to buy it just for the realtime capture it does.

I use the maiconcept engine to encode to realtime mpeg 2 (interlace). My tests show me that when I capture from sky digital (the main reason I want an mpeg 2 realtime solution) if I set 2 pass VBR (version 1.4.1) with 1150 min, 2700 average, 4000 maximum, @ 352 x 576 framesize, I have excellent results. With my bt8xx cards somehow blurry compared the original picture, with my asus 7700 nvidia card it is exactly like the source! I'm more than suprised with the results, since I used all the programs for realtime mpeg 2 with the same cards and the results were inferior in really higher bitrates.
I also don't have drop frames, except when I use the built in Noise Reduction filter. But the way mainconcept drop frames, is clever: Drops picture and audio the same time, so no lipsynch problems that way.

From the other hand, as an encoder I don't believe it is better than TMPGenc. It is faster when you feed it direct avis, but when you feed it frameserved material (yes it is possible...) or mpeg's, the difference in the speed disapears. 5 min faster on a 3 hour source, doesn't mean something in me.

I tested the built in capture feauture with a Duron 1200, Athlon XP 1700 and Athlon XP 2600. Works flawsly on all occacions. But it keep droping frames if I use the Noise Reduction filter even with my 2600+. Who knows, maybe this needs some optimise...

Another really interesting test: I was able to capture PAL60 realtime with my bt8xx cards, using NTSC framerate and NTSC framesizes. The result was acceptable as NTSC to TMPGEnc Author. Okey, without filtering any VHS source looks bad whatever bitrate you use, but hey: There are those times you need something fast and for those times, this proggy is the best solution we have!

[wwaag]

if I set 2 pass VBR

Do you really mean 2-pass? In that case, wouldn't the AVI file have to be stored for the 2nd pass?

Also, do you use the buffering option?

If so, how long does it take say to capture/encode a 30 min program? 30 minutes? I've only done a few encodes but it seems to take around a third longer to complete the encoding on a P4, 2.53Ghz machine. The source input is DV from an ADVC-100 which may have an effect.

Thanks in advance.

wwaag

[SatStorm]

How it succeed 2 Pass VBR?
Well... It seems that it buffers some seconds ahead (probably in a temporary avi) frameserve it realtime to the encoder engine and then encode realtime to mpeg 2. Mainconcept is a very fast encoder, so something like that is possible.
Or, it does CQ VBR (1 Pass VBR) in an ABR way. This is more true I think, but really, I don't care: It works, that is what counts for me!

The bottom line is that captures realtime on mpeg 2 with 2 Pass VBR and actually, it works with low birtates.
Tested with an AMD Duron 1200 with no problems @ 704 x 576!

That way, it is 30 min for 30 min.

[Will Hay]

Mine was only a short test at ten mins and whilst set t o4000CBR did take a little while longer for processing at the end.
I'd put the extra time at a minute, maybe two at a stretch.
Will

[simply3]

HI, anyone can help.

I saw VHS to AVI, sometimes i saw VHS to DV-AVI.
theses two AVI , and DV-AVI are different things?

When you convert VHS to AVI compressed/uncompressed
what is the different or effect if you compressed?

thanks,

[SatStorm]

AVI is a generall name. It is used to describe all kind of analogue captures.

When we capture from "video - in", uncompressed AVI is huge and almost impossible to use. People mostly use mjpeg codecs (like PicVideo) or Huffyuv which compress realtime the analogue source, to something more possible to use as a source on PCs

DV Avi is the AVI compressed with DV codec. You have those on videocameras mostly.

There is a technick, which you hook a VHS VCR to a video camera, the video camera converts realtime to DV AVI and you can transfer (not capture!) this to a PC. It is a more loseless method and overall the best for those tasks. But not anyone has a videocamera to do this...

[simply3]

Hi, SSatom

thanks a lot, a simple with very clear solid explain.
i am very appriciate if you would help me following addition.

if 2 hours of VHS tape after capture to below status how big the file size?
Q: uncompressed AVI vs Huffyuv compressed AVI?

QV AVI is already compressed so what is the size will be?

these AVI, DV-AVI need further compress to view on PC? or itself already compressed so we do not need further works ,and it can play on PC with Quicktime. WindowsMedia, or Divix Player?

Q:if i hope to put 2 hours of vhs tape to One 700mb CDR,
is it possible?

simply

[SatStorm]

All what you ask is not something which a forum post can answer you straight....
I'm gonna answer you, but without the proper knowledge of the subject, you might not understand totally. Maybe other members can explain it to you better than me...

Q: if 2 hours of VHS tape after capture to below status how big the file size?
A: That depends from the codec and the framesize you using for capture. No solid answer here, just an example: It is more than 15GB (I think) per hour with Huffyuv @ full D1 framesize (I don't use Huffyuv anymore myself, so I don't remember exactly)

Q: uncompressed AVI vs Huffyuv compressed AVI?
A: From a VHS source? Huffyuv, or even better, picVideo @18/19. For VHS Huffyuv is an overkill IMHO

Q If the AVI is already compressed so what is the size will be?
A: Depends on the codec you are using and the framesize you capture.

Q: these AVI, DV-AVI need further compress to view on PC? or itself already compressed so we do not need further works ,and it can play on PC with Quicktime. WindowsMedia, or Divix Player?
A: It is playable on PC with software players. It is also huge on filesize. About 10 - 15 GB per hour. That's why we compres it to mpeg

Q:if i hope to put 2 hours of vhs tape to One 700mb CDR, is it possible?
A: No. The closest you can do is VCD, about 80 min per 700MB CD with a quality about the same VHS if you source comes from a DVD or a DVB transmission. But from a VHS source to VCD without heavy filtering, post capture proccessing and advance skills on seting up the encoder, the results gonna look horrible. Just realise, that without filtering and advance technicks, 2 hours of VHS is 1 DVD-R.
When and if you learn how to proccess VHS and encode it propertly, you can double even trible this time on DVD-Rs, but not on CD-Rs.

[Will Hay]

Hey Sat.
Just a quickie...
....as I've spent the last two years capturing avi and converting (and direct mpeg2 capture is very new to me), how do you edit and join?
As you know I'm using MainConcept 1.4 and haven't really got to grips with it yet (I'm having some crashing problems I'm afraid, but hope to have it solved), but as I usually use the 'source range' function in TMPGEnc before I encode (editing out commercials and simply clipping the end off) is there something similar I can use with the mpeg created via MC1.4?
I know editing mpeg2 is unwise, but I don't class clipping and joining as editing.
I've checked the guides (thought I'd mention that before I get into trouble) but the only guide on mpeg2 editing is something to do with a CVD MPEG2 and I have no idea what CVD is.
Thanks, if you can help
Will

[SatStorm]

I use mpeg2vcr to cut/copy, join, edit and whatever.
It is fast, it is frame accurate, it can do what virtualdub do to AVIs.
It is not freeware, has some bugs, but IMHO is the only solution for mpeg 2 editing/join/cut or whatever.

There is a demo for mpeg2vcr, you can download it at the official site. If you like it, you can later buy a serial number to unlock it.
The demo has limitations, but you can undestand how it works and what it is capable to do.

And I don't use mainconcept for encoding, only when I have to capture realtime to mpeg 2. It is an amazing fuction with amazing results! I turn fan of mainconcept just because of this.

[Will Hay]

I use mpeg2vcr to cut/copy, join, edit and whatever.
It is fast, it is frame accurate, it can do what virtualdub do to AVIs.
It is not freeware, has some bugs, but IMHO is the only solution for mpeg 2 editing/join/cut or whatever.

There is a demo for mpeg2vcr, you can download it at the official site. If you like it, you can later buy a serial number to unlock it.
The demo has limitations, but you can undestand how it works and what it is capable to do.

Thanks!
I'll give it a try.

And I don't use mainconcept for encoding, only when I have to capture realtime to mpeg 2. It is an amazing fuction with amazing results! I turn fan of mainconcept just because of this.

No, I'm with you.
I intend to stick with TMPGEnc for avi > mpeg2 but like you use MainConcept to capture direct to mpeg2.
I hope I fix the crashes as the ones that worked (one test in four is fine) were superb.
Thanks again SatStorm.
Will Hay

[mracer]

I tried MC 1.41 realtime MPEG encoding last night for the first time and I have a question about frame drops. I used the ADVC-100 as the capture device, the source was DirecTivo. I captured NTSC 29.97fps DVD 720x480 VBR. During the capture the framerate indicator never got all the way to 29.97 on my Athlon 1700+, but no frame drops were indicated. After capture there was post processing for several minutes. If the MC encoder did not indicate dropped frames, does that mean that no frames were dropped? I am not sure how this realtime encoder works.


The resulting MPEG file was not perfect, but I did not see any stuttering of frame rate. It was better than I imagined a realtime capture could be.

[wwaag]

Just another data point. First, the system I used was a "retired" PIII 850 with an ADVC-100. Works great for DV captures though--no dropped frames. However, very slow for processing.

I captured an 84 min VHS tape (cartoon). The encoder was set to 4000 VBR with the output resolution of 352x480 with no preview. The good news is that it captured the entire tape with no dropped frames. Afterwards, it took another 2 1/2 hrs to complete processing. You'll like the results only if you like the MainConcept encoder in the first place. I still like CCE, but that's only my preference.

Authored the resulting MPG file in Tmpgenc DVD Author with no problems in which I only clipped the end. Don't know if there would be any audio sync problems since I didn't clip the beginning--besides it was a cartoon. The resulting image was OK with the exception of high motion scenes--to be expected.

From what I gather, there are 2 processes that are ongoing. First, there is the straight capture of DV in roughly 100MB block temp files--hence, no problem for using Windows 98. And second, it encodes from the captured blocks and deletes them once processing is completed. Obviously, the faster your machine, the closer to real-time you will get.

Will try this again on a new machine and post the results.

wwaag

[SatStorm]

I can capure realtime mpeg 2 with 1.4.1 on my duron 1200 and when I press stop, the file is ready mpeg 2! I don't have to wait for something...

Seems like the difference between a P3@ 800 and a duron 1200 is huge!!!

[wwaag]

Just another data point and a fairly significant one to me, I might add.

Did capture on new P4 2.6 machine with HT. Captured at full resolution 720x480 at an avg 6000VBR, 500 min, 8300 max. Three sets of results.

First. Saved MPG file to local 7200 HD. Result. Real-time encoding with no dropped frames. When I "stopped" the MPG file was completed in a couple of seconds--no continued processing screen. Edited in Tmpgenc DVD Author. This time, I cut off a couple of minutes at the beginning of the clip. Result--no audio synch problems. Looked and sounded the same as original with no editing. Input was from satellite, so the output looked quite good.

Second. Saved MPG to old 8GB 5400 HD. Same result. Real-time encoding.

Third, and by far the most interesting to me. Saved the MPG to another computer's HD via ethernet (100MB/s). Again, the same result--real-time encoding. Once, the stop button was "hit", the saved file was completed within a few seconds--on a different computer. Amazing to me!!

I must admit that my opinion has changed quite favorably toward this real-time encoding solution.

wwaag

[MrMungus]

Hey Sat.
I know editing mpeg2 is unwise, but I don't class clipping and joining as editing.

Will

If your output is to disc (VCD, DVD), why not just use TMPGEnc DVD Author so you don't have to edit the MPEGs at all?

[Will Hay]

Hey Sat.
I know editing mpeg2 is unwise, but I don't class clipping and joining as editing.

Will

If your output is to disc (VCD, DVD), why not just use TMPGEnc DVD Author so you don't have to edit the MPEGs at all?

Thanks, I'll take a look.
Does it (TMPGEnc AUthor) have the facility to source range, pretty much like the encoder?
Can I remove footage from the middle of an mpeg2 file?
Maybe I don't know enough out the software you suggest but if I capture a broadcast with adverts in the middle (using MC1.4 directly to mpeg2) I'm going to need to perform some clipping/minimal editing.
Will Hay

[MrMungus]

Does it (TMPGEnc AUthor) have the facility to source range, pretty much like the encoder?
Can I remove footage from the middle of an mpeg2 file?
Maybe I don't know enough out the software you suggest but if I capture a broadcast with adverts in the middle (using MC1.4 directly to mpeg2) I'm going to need to perform some clipping/minimal editing.
Will Hay

Yep. You load it into TDA, select the range you want to "cut", and when TDA creates your VOBs, it just leaves out the parts you cut out without changing your original file. Saves a ton of time not having to re-render a new file. It's easy as hell...and a free trial.

[BARCH]

I'm capturing from vhs and this method of mpeg2 realtime capture with advc-100 using mainconcept sounds good, time saving, but what is the quality like compared with capturing to avi then converting to mpeg2?
[/quote]

[SatStorm]

From VHS realtime to mpeg 2 means:
1. Big files (you need 4000kb/s at least for 1/2 D1 Capture)
2. A picture like the one on VHS. No enchancment, no cleaning noise, nothing.

Personally, I don't suggest it.

Realtime mpeg 2 is OK when you wish to capture from a TV transmission for example, or a dvb reciever...

[BARCH]

Satstorm,

What software and filters do you use for enhancement, noise cleaning, etc?
Or is it better to use a vcr with some of these filters built in. So far my source has been reasonable so have not had to enhance.

[SatStorm]

There is not one way to do this, unfortunatelly.

For NTSC users, the things are more complicated than PAL ones. You see, with NTSC you need TBC, sometime you need signal boosters, chroma stablisers, etc. Those can be adjust by software, but it is better to use hardware. It is not filtering, is adjustments because of the flaws of NTSC broadcast system.
With PAL things are much easier, even TBC ain't neccessary.

From the other hand, real filtering of the source, like the elimination of the musquito noise from the aerial transmission, or bad reception, etc, it is a much more complicated matter.
Each source, each VHS tape if you prefer (if we talking for VHS capture), depending the recorder material, needs a different combo of filters to make them work.

Sometimes temporal filters are needed, other times spatial filters are needed, sometimes both, sometimes line filters or frame mergers, chroma reduction / smoothers are neccessary for SECAM (example), the list is countless....
Overall, you need to learn all those filters and test yourself to find good results. It is not an easy task, but this is why this is hobby is so interesting.

[BARCH]

Thanks SatStorm. Where could I get these filters that you mentioned? I actually do have some slight mosquito noise. Yes very interesting hobby but very time consuming.

[SatStorm]

Well, the most common source for filters is here http://neuron2.net/

Since you are PAL, and you wish to use virtualdub, search for those filters:

Temporal Smoother
2D Cleaner
rmPAL
Dynamic Noise Reduction
Static Noise Reduction
Video DeNoise
Frame Merger

Those filters are among the best common ones.

Some examples to test with VHS:
Add filters that order:

1) rmPAL, Dynamic Noise Reduction ( 8 ), 2D cleaner (16/1-1), Sharpen 6
2) rmPAL, Static Noise Reduction (6), Dynamic Noise Reduction ( 8 ), Sharpen 4
3) rmPAL, Temporal Smoother ( 4 ), Sharpen ( 2 )

rmPAL is a neccessary filter for VHS IMHO. It doesn't do something you can see, but it does something the encoder sees. And this is something most people can't understand, but it makes the difference!

Also, you need to learn about Resizing. Do some reading that direction, it is neccessary for the best possible results.

[BARCH]

Thanks SatStorm, shall try to have a go at the filters. I guess I should use the filters with avi files. Must be difficult to filter with interlaced files I guess, quality on monitor is different from tv.

[SatStorm]

I only have interlace sources and those filters I mention also works well with interlace material.
You can preview them on virtuldub and see the results yourself. On many cases, the differences are so visible, you gonna be suprised!

You can use those filters to anything virtualdub loads.
There is a virtualdub variation, called virtualdub mpeg2. You can found it on the tools section. You can load direct mpeg 2 to this modified virtualdub, so to apply filters (if neccessary) there.

One thing also to mention: The more filters you apply, the slower the proccess go. Use less filters possible.

[MrMungus]

There is not one way to do this, unfortunatelly.

For NTSC users, the things are more complicated than PAL ones. You see, with NTSC you need TBC, sometime you need signal boosters, chroma stablisers, etc. Those can be adjust by software, but it is better to use hardware. It is not filtering, is adjustments because of the flaws of NTSC broadcast system.
With PAL things are much easier, even TBC ain't neccessary.

From the other hand, real filtering of the source, like the elimination of the musquito noise from the aerial transmission, or bad reception, etc, it is a much more complicated matter.
Each source, each VHS tape if you prefer (if we talking for VHS capture), depending the recorder material, needs a different combo of filters to make them work.

Sometimes temporal filters are needed, other times spatial filters are needed, sometimes both, sometimes line filters or frame mergers, chroma reduction / smoothers are neccessary for SECAM (example), the list is countless....
Overall, you need to learn all those filters and test yourself to find good results. It is not an easy task, but this is why this is hobby is so interesting.

So what do you think of MPEG-2 capture devices with temporal and spatial filters built in?

[SatStorm]

If you have money to buy them, are quality decent and you know how to use them, they are very good solutions for average use.

But I repait: There is no a specific way to enchance analogue sources. So what you can succeed with those built in filters, are faster results than using the same filters software-based.
The result always need testing to proove itself in your eyes

If you ask me, you end up "about" the same time one way or other. From the other hand, if your needs are specific and you don't care for top results, they might be the best alternative.