VCR Audio and S-Video Woes

[Zeek]

I'm suddenly on a mission to do something about the large stockpile of my soon-to-be-worthless-unless-I-do-something-about-it VHS that's stuffed in my closet. I have a collection of fairly high end equipment: Dual CPU machine, camcorder with built-in hardware encoder, etc, etc. The notable exception there is my VCR, a cheap-o I picked up at Wal-Mart some time ago. (I know, I know.... I DIDN't know at the time.)

Anyway, here's the thing: After doing some quicky practice "captures" by running RCA jacks from VCR to camera and firewire from camera to computer, I must say the quality of video actually isn't all that bad. My big hangup, if there is one, actually has more to do with the interfaces - or lack thereof.

1. There is no S-Video output from the VCR, so S-Video is out.

2. Is it not true that most real VCR's have 3 separate RCA jacks for output? I blv the usual deal is red and white for audio, yellow for video. Mine has only 2: yellow for video and a single white jack for audio.

As I mentioned, captures thus far have been surprisingly tolerable considering the quality of my player. I've heard a lot of hub-bub about the VCR's are not all created equal bit, but have also heard some arguments to the contrary. Basically, I am wondering if investing in an S-Video, dual audio VCR is worth it. I'm not expecting perfection, but if the quality would REALLY be significantly better, I'd certainly consider dropping the dime.

I'm well aware some will probably think I've already answered my own question here but, as I say, I've heard more than one side of the argument and so I'd appreciate any knowledable input. My background is computers...very little video so far, so any help would be very much appreciated. Thanks muchly..

Zeek

[Bob W]

IMO you would be better off just getting a DVD recorder which will give you far better results in one fifth the time.

[davideck]

What type of source material are you dealing with?
A single audio out means that the VCR plays the linear audio track in mono. Access to the HiFi stereo audio channels is only provided with VCRs that have stereo outputs. Do your tapes have HiFi tracks?
Whether or not a better VCR will provide better video quality again depends upon the quality of your source tapes. If they are 6 hr recordings of off-air programming, then it probably won't matter much. If you are talking about 2 hr camcorder originals, then it might be beneficial using the s-video path.

[racerxnet]

Hi Fi is recorded helically (+6 -6) on the tape as opposed to linear. It has pretty good signal to noise ratio compared to cassette tapes. Buy a good used SVHS unit on Ebay if you trust your instincts. I purchased two NEC PC-VCR's for video editing and am quite impressed for the cash outlay.

[vhelp]

Yes, definately get you hands on an S-VHS unit. I used to believe that
there was no difference between Composite vs. S-Video, until I started actually
working w/ it (VCR's) and then actually noticeing the difference. And,
especially for VHS because of it's noise cotent, you want as best a signal
you can get from it. And, S-Video is the best you can get from it. No, I did
not say DVD quality - boing.
But, w/ S-Video, you'll have lesser noise (at least in my eyes)
Also, FWIW, w/ S-Video, one of the main PROS of this is that its benefit is
where it splits the Y/C (luminance/chromanance) fields (colors) vs. RCA
(composite) merges them together, which imo, adds in some additional
noise to your final capture output.

I have the JVC S-VHS HR-S3910U and it's a great unit for it's price
of $169 (a year+ ago) Has S-Video IN/OUT. But, I don't use the unit for
it's SVHS tapes. Only for store bought tapes that I convert/transfer to DVD
disks :P

-vhelp

[Zeek]

You guys are big help, as always. This forum is one of the best around.

vhelp: Thought you might be lurking. You were big help with another problem I had some time ago and I remember the name. OK then...I will hunt around for an S-Video capable unit. Some of the tapes I have are of the geriatric variety, so I'm expecting noise to be an issue as it is; anything that'll cut down on it further will definitely be on the agenda.

One side thought, though: Since my old VHS will surely be "noisy", won't S-Video just enable me to see all of my noise more clearly?


racerxnet: Ebay it just might be. Didn't know NEC made VCR's, though.

davideck: My source stuff is actually a collection I've acquired over the last 15 years or so. The more recent flicks will probably be reasonably good (as good as vhs will get, anyway) - but I fully expect to be dealing with some other stuff that will be garbage (EP recording, 14 years ago, poorly stored, etc.), relatively speaking. Trouble is, that garbage is a bunch of footage of things - mostly old judo matches and sports stuff - that I happen to value highly. I just haven't had the time and money to deal with it properly and, now that I do, I want to get moving before any further degradation sets in.

As far as Hi-Fi goes, I am sure these tapes do not have that. None of em are commercially made and most are just old, old (8 years+) copies of tournaments and stuff made by regular schmoes that gave me a tape. That being the case, do you think an upgrade to stereo output will really make much of a difference? Looks like I'll be hunting for an S-Video VCR anyway - so the point is probably moot, but just curious.

Bob W: I'd consider that, except that I plan to do quite a bit of cutting, editing, etc and, far as I know, the recorder option won't let me do that. If I'm wrong, please let me know.

[FulciLives]

If the tapes are old or less than steller quality (such as LP or SLP/EP recordings) then you would benefit GREATLY from a stand alone TBC device such as the DataVideo TBC-1000

Some of the high-end (note very expensive) S-VHS units by JVC have a built-in TBC but it is not a full frame TBC like the DataVideo TBC-1000 and it is that kind (the full frame kind) that REALLY do the best job.

If I was in your situation and wanted to spead the least possible I would get the DataVideo TBC-1000 and maybe a new $100 VHS 4 Head Hi-Fi Stereo VCR

I would't get a S-VHS VCR unless you get one of the two current JVC models that have the built-in TBC but even then you would probably need the stand alone TBC for the really "bad" tapes.

It's nice to have both ... VCR with built-in TBC and stand alone full frame TBC ... but if you can only have one or the other then the stand alone full frame TBC is the way to go.

Trust me. I've seen what a full frame TBC can do with VHS vidoes and it makes a HUGE difference especially with LP and SLP/EP speed recordings. It's like night and day.

Not only do they improve the image quality (and help to minimize dropped frames) but your captured image will be more stable and less wavy which means a better use of bitrate when converting to the MPEG-2 DVD format. This all results in a better image on the final product ... your home made DVD-R

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[racerxnet]

Here's a link to a NEC PC-VCR for 25.00. Not bad for a $1900.00 VCR when new. It is a video editing, frame accurate VCR for professional use. 7 head, with Svideo out. I have the source code and software to use on your pc for this unit. It connects to your parallel port for frame editing or playback. It does not have the TBC as the DS8000 unit, but the build quality is better that 90% of the others in the upper mid, to low end units.

Just a thought.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3074637551&category=50606

[Zeek]

FulciLives: Thank you. I will definitely look into TBC's then. That TBC-1000 is around $300...ouch! Even so, if some of my stuff ends up really being that bad, then what the hell.

racerxnet: Pricey little number. The only other one I can find atm is selling for around $1000. How old is this item (when were they made)? For $60, not bad - though the front face plate is apparently missing.
Also, seller doesn't mention software. What software is used and would it be hard to come by?

All: If build quality of this VCR is that much superior, do you think I'd be better off with an item like this than blowing $400+ on the TBC+other VCR? I value those tapes, but $60 vs. $400+ is certainly tempting, if I could get away with it.

Thanks to everyone for your replies.

[racerxnet]

The front faceplate is missing on both of mine, No big deal as I can hardly notice it missing. I have the software for the machine and source code if you need it. The unit was built in 1991 and was discontinued when NEC sold out to Mitsubishi. Parts are still available, but the machines are quit durable for their age. You do not need the software for the unit to function, but is needed for the frame accurate A/B rolls when editing.

You will still need a TBC if your tapes are old and degraded. But, the quality of the playback will be the best it can be if the unit is in good shape and the tape alignment is set properlyon the NEC. A new one will do no better if the source is poor.

[Zeek]

Thanks brother. I am looking into it and will get back to you if I pick up that unit.

I appreciate your help.

Z