TBC troubles with the Panasonic DMR-E20 (pics included)

[FulciLives]

I have a PANASONIC DMR-E20 that a friend gave to me since he never uses it. I've only used it a couple of times because of the "black level" bug.

Being low on money and without a TBC I thought hey why don't I just pass a video signal THROUGH the Panasonic DMR-E20 to take advantage of the built-in TBC but use my computer based capture card to do the capture or recording.

So I hook up my VHS VCR to the input of the DMR-E20 and the output of the DMR-E20 to my computer.

Well I started to notice that there was a blueish or purpleish "haze" across the top of the image. It wasn't there all the time but would flicker in and out from time to time. At first I thought it had to do with the fact that I was playing an SLP/EP speed VHS tape in a VCR that did not record said tape (the VCR that I recorded this on original has since died). We all know a VHS video recorded on VCR A does not always play back with perfect quality on VCR B especially with SLP/EP recordings.

So I tried some factory made pre-records which are SP speed. Same problem. I also had the same problem on SP VHS tapes that were recorded from clean video sources etc.

So now I'm thinking my VHS VCR might be to blame. So I hook a different VHS VCR to the Panny DMR-E20 using a different set of A/V cables (composite video every time) and same problem. Huh I think. What the hell!

So then I tried input 3 instead of input 1 and I selected output 2 instead of output 1 and again same thing.

BTW the TBC is definately on in pass-thru but I see no option in the menu to turn it off. I try all the combinations of my 2 VHS VCR units with different cables and different inputs on the DMR-E20 and trying to change the LIGHTER/DARKER output level of the DMR-E20 as well as turning either ON or OFF the 3D Y/C comb filter. Same problem every time.

Then I wonder if it doesn't just have something to do with the OUTPUT of the Panny DMR-E20 in this pass-thru method or maybe it is that it does not like my capture card.

I decide to bust out a DVD-R that I recorded using the DMR-20 ... from a factory made VHS video. This way since I'm using a DVD that the DMR-20 recorded I'm ruling out the output of it and my catpure card being the problem.

Well I didn't notice it the first time (overscan tends to hide this most of the time) but yuppers that damn blueish/purpleish "haze" is on that DVD ... very easy to see when playing it back on my computer monitor where there is no overscan (plus I know to look for it now).

So what the hell. Black level bug and a faulty TBC as well?

It really annoys me too because the TBC does make a BIG difference but I find this thing (the Panny DMR-E20) to be a damn hunk of junk paper weight.

I'm wondering if anyone else has experienced this problem using ANY type of TBC although I am most interested in those that either have a DMR-E20 or even a newer model of Panny stand alone DVD recorder.

Again it shows up on pass-thru as well as on DVD-R discs that I have recorded too using it.

Anyways here are two pics that I made from VirtualDub. This is the original capture loaded directly into VirtualDub with no filtering of any kind. The AVI is 720x480 and using the PICVideo MJPEG codec on the 19 out of 20 quality setting. This is from a SLP/EP speed tape recorded from cable TV from a channel with generally speaking good reception.

The first pic shows the blueish/purpleish "haze" and the second pic is actually from a few frames before hand and looks normal. Again the "haze" only shows up some of the time.





Thanks all for taking a look.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[thxkid]

I have had a panny DMR 20 and DMR10 for almost 2 years now, neither one has this problem I see you have, now I don't use the pass through but I have used the recorded DVD-R's on my computer all the time and never noticed this problem or even on the DVD+R's I burn them back on, the black level is a pain but is super easy to over come, I have Panny DVD players that have user adjustments for contrast and brightness, I just turn them back down and my DVD-R's of star wars from laser discs look great, just wish there was some type of computer editing program to turn the black level down so I could burn the corrected results back on a burned DVD+R.
One thing you might try is make sure on the VHS that editing, sharpness and any filters are off, I notice I get a jerky picture if any type of enhancement is on any of my JVC SVHS decks.

[lordsmurf]

That kind of error is commonly seen on tapes made from poor 2-head or dual-deck VCRs. It's a loss of signal integrity. Most common this appears as green and pink flickering (or purple and blue on top of reds and browns).

Anyway, in my opinion, the TBC is 99.9% not to blame. It's either internal circuitry going haywire or input/output has error along the feeds of the device in question (Panasonic recorder). Switching the input/ouput wires probably has zero effect because internally they'd share components.

Loss of black levels could be part of a larger problem also creating this anamoly.

Good luck.

[DaveS]

One thing you might try is make sure on the VHS that editing, sharpness and any filters are off, I notice I get a jerky picture if any type of enhancement is on any of my JVC SVHS decks.

just wondering, how would you describe / characterize the jerkiness (seriously)..I'm wondering whether it's similar to something I saw on my JVC

TIA

[FulciLives]

UPDATE

I have a stand alone MULTISYSTEM FORMAT converter that can convert PAL or SECAM to NTSC or NTSC to PAL etc.

This has a built-in TBC so I tried passing my NTSC VHS signal through it and even though I'm inputting NTSC and outputting NTSC the TBC does kick in and I don't get that blueish/purpleish haze.

However the MULTISYSTEM FORMAT converter seems to suck some color out of the original signal compared to the Panny plus the image doesn't seem 100% as "clear". It's almost like the converter does a seperate fields then a weave but doesn't put it back together correctly. You can almost see a scan line "effect" but more so than normal. In fact it almost looks like the DV codec stair step pattern thing on curved lines etc. but I'm hoping it is subtle enough that it really won't be noticeable on a normal sized interlaced TV.

Anyways this MULTISYSTEM FORMAT converter thing (with built-in TBC) did work wonders on cleaning up the VHS SLP/EP speed tape making the final capture look almost as good as a VHS SP capture when not using a TBC. Pretty amazing really.

Again I blame the Panasonic DMR-E20 because this happened with two different model/makes of VHS VCR units using different cables and using a variety of VHS tape sources from home recorded SP and SLP/EP to pre-recorded factory bought VHS SP tapes. All of the home recorded tapes were done on 4 or 6 head Hi-Fi Stereo VHS VCR units. I havn't had anything but 4 head Hi-Fi Stereo since 1986 and these tapes are only a year or so old. Plus I did use some pre-records as well.

So the problem is definately that Panny DMR-E20 although maybe it is something otherthan the TBC ... but who knows?

I just know that the problem is only visible when the Panny DMR-E20 is in use be it the recording device used (to DVD-R) or be it that I am just trying to use it as a pass-thru device to "benefit" from the TBC.

I thought my friend stoped using it because of the black level bug but then again maybe this "flickering" was another reason. Sounds like he got a "bum" DMR-E20 which I got "stuck with" even though I paid nothing for it

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[FulciLives]

Here is a screen pic of the capture done with the MULTISYSTEM FORMAT converter. Note that the color saturation is lower than in the pics above (which were captured the same way but using the Panny DMR-E20 as a pass-thru device instead).

Also note the "odd" stuff at the very top. I find that cutting the top by 4 lines and adding black back (so as not to mess up the aspect ratio) is enough to cover that "garbage" so that is what I do for the final MPEG-2 DVD encoding step. I also cut off then replace the bottom with black as well to get rid of the usual VHS garbage noise.



What do you guys think of the quality of this picture compared to the other two?

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[lordsmurf]

If the Panasonics is anything like a JVC SVHS VCR, pass-through using the TBC does not happen. It cannot happen. The TBC circuits are not in the input->output line ... the are in another location for the recorder and/or player circuits, only engaged when that exact record or play function is in effect. Passthrough does not happen. I would think this is the same situation. Maybe it's just a bad input on the recorder, or the two machines butt heads (try another input scenario with different input equipment and different source).

The saturation issues and color problems are a result of faulty chroma/luma levels ... they are not being maintained properly.

I'm curious what's "wrong" with the black levels too. Are you sure it's not just tv black being viewed on a computer (which would be 16 shades lighter intot he gray range). In that case, everything is fine. It should be off-black on a computer, but true-black on a tv set.

That last image looks great. Also remember a tv set willl re-enhance colors, so what may look "washed-out" now could be vivid on a tv set. It all depends on the calibration of all the tvs and monitors in question. Mine are matched for my main tv ... how are yours?

[FulciLives]

Well I did 3 captures from the same source using the following methods:

1.) VHS VCR direct to my AverTV Stereo PCI capture card using composite video.

2.) VHS VCR composite out to an input on the Panasonic DMR-E20 then composite out of the Panasonic DMR-E20 to the AverTV Stereo capture card.

3.) VHS VCR composite out to my stand alone MULTISYSTEM FORMAT CONVERTER and then S-Video out to the AverTV Stereo capture card.

The source is a VHS recording in SLP/EP from THE HISTORY CHANNEL cable TV station ... original reception very good. I also tested with a few other tapes including factory pre-records.

Quality wise:

1.) Looked like shit from the SLP/EP tape but looks fine if it is a VHS SP tape.

2.) Looked better especially the SLP/EP speed tape so I'm thinking the TBC does kick in on simple pass-thru but it has that annoying blueish/purplish haze. This happens with all source VHS tapes I tested and I used 2 different VHS VCR model/makes to rule out the VCR being the equipment at fault. Also this "haze" happens not only on pass-thru but also visible on a DVD-R that I made in the DMR-E20 so something is definately wrong with the DMR-E20 that I have. At least that is my conclusion.

3.) Overall the TBC in the MULTISYSTEM FORMAT CONVERTER kicks ass compared to method 1 with no TBC or even compared to method 2 using the Panny DMR-E20. However there is a bit of a lack of color saturation but I found that this can be compensated for by using the saturation control of my capture software (although the picture above from this method is untouched straight capture with no adjustments). While this TBC puts some "junk" at the top it can be cut out no problem it is in the overscan area anyways. Although the image is very clean (the cleanest of the three) it does worry me that it is not as "sharp". I'm not sure if that is the correct word but look at the first two pics (from method 2) and the second pic (the one posted by itself further down from the first 2) and you will see if you look hard at the pics that there is a difference in "detail". Look hard at the "TV G" logo and the "CC" logo and you should see what I am talking about.

So in conclusion method 3 looks best but the lack of "detail" is bothersome. So I am wondering if I will get better quality detail using another TBC such as the DataVideo TBC-1000 or the AVT-8710 which is sold on that AV TOOL BOX website.

You might notice that I used the S-Video output of the MULTISYSTEM FORMAT CONVERTER even though I'm inputting a composite video signal into it. I did this because when I used the composite out that "detail" thing I'm talking about was even worse. Apparently it can send the composite input out through the S-Video and that cleaned up the "detail" issue somewhat but I still see that strange lack of "detail" or "stair-step" or segmented "scan line" look. It's annoying me. And it's the only thing that is really bothering me at this point.

I don't care about the so-called black level bug of the Panny DMR-E20 since I am definately not using it ever again. Also the unit is known to "correct" the black level bug on output (only the DVD-R still has it when played back on other DVD players) and it appears that the pass-thru method is unaffected by it so again I'm not concerned with that.

So LordSmurf do you see what I am talking about in that "odd" lack of detail in my second lone pic? Or am I just being really anal

Again to clearify the first two pics are VirtualDub screen grabs from the captures done through the Panny DMR-E20 whereas the 3rd pic posted later was the one captured through my MULTISYSTEM FORMAT CONVERTER but inputting and outputting NTSC so there is no format conversion but the TBC does apparently "kick in" doing this. Again I could tell that the TBC was kicking in as the capture direct from the VHS VCR to my capture card looked like donkey ass in comparrison.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[lordsmurf]

I actually think the first two images.. the RED ones.. are more fuzzy than your last one, the DESAT'd one. I'd say let somebody else judge it. Your eyes may be getting crossed from all the tests. Happens to us all.

[FulciLives]

I actually think the first two images.. the RED ones.. are more fuzzy than your last one, the DESAT'd one. I'd say let somebody else judge it. Your eyes may be getting crossed from all the tests. Happens to us all.

Well the 3rd pic (the one with less red or less saturation) looks good and sharp I guess but what I mean is ... look at the difference in the TV G logo and the CC logo. Don't you see how the first two pics are more "smooth" and the 3rd pic is more ... I dunno how to describe it ... but it sure doesn't look smooth.

You can also see it on the key if you look at the hole on the round part at the end (the part on the far left).

It's like the 3rd pic looks "jagged" to me. Granted this is from a SLP/EP speed tape but the first pics from the same tape (different capture) don't have the "jaggies" and I see this non-smooth jaggy effect even from good quality VHS SP factory pre-records.

So this leads me to believe that the TBC built-into my MULTISYSTEM FORMAT CONVERTER is not that great since the TBC in the Panny DMR-E20 does not make the picture look "jagged" nor does the picture look "jagged" when I'm doing a straight capture (VHS straight to capture card with no processing in between).

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[lordsmurf]

The jagged edge is just interlace. Whatever you used for screen caps caught it at a bad moment.

[mazinz]

perhaps their is something screwy with your particular panny deck? i own the panny dmr-hs2, i too run my tapes through that, then into the pc and i have never encountered the problem you have had (and i am running in some very old and/or crappy tapes). Also since running it through to use the machine's tbc i have never had anykind of sync or video glitch (freeze fame) problem ever again.
Do you know anyone else with a panny deck that you can try it on?

[FulciLives]

perhaps their is something screwy with your particular panny deck? i own the panny dmr-hs2, i too run my tapes through that, then into the pc and i have never encountered the problem you have had (and i am running in some very old and/or crappy tapes). Also since running it through to use the machine's tbc i have never had anykind of sync or video glitch (freeze fame) problem ever again.
Do you know anyone else with a panny deck that you can try it on?

I'm pretty much convinced something is wrong with the Panny DMR-E20 that I have. I am going to try and hook it up to another AC WALL PLUG than what I have it in. I've seen that sometimes solve problems with other stuff. That is the only thing I haven't tried yet. Right now it is plugged into an extention cord which is plugged into a power strip so maybe it just isn't getting enough "juice" or something.

Unfortunately I live in an old house apartment and I don't have many options for AC power.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[FulciLives]

Well I tried another AC plug and this time even tried the S-Video out of the Panny DMR-E20 (into my capture card) eventhough I'm only inputting composite video into the DMR-E20

Same problem with that damn "haze"

And although I appreciate LordSmurf's comments the problems with the other TBC device I have (the "jaggy" look) is not an interlacing issue.

Good think I got a new job recently. Looks like I might have to save up for one of the TBC devices I listed earlier.

Sigh

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[mazinz]

FulciLives,

would their be any possible way to get a copy of that tape? i would love to try it out (actually i am just very damn curious) and see if the same problem occurs through my deck (im in the US too)

[FulciLives]

FulciLives,

would their be any possible way to get a copy of that tape? i would love to try it out (actually i am just very damn curious) and see if the same problem occurs through my deck (im in the US too)

Very nice of you to offer that for testing purposes but I've seen that damn blueish/purpleish "haze" on not just my "test" VHS tape (which is SLP/EP) but also on a few other VHS tapes I tested including home made VHS SP recording and even pre-record factory made VHS SP tapes.

I even tried two VHS VCR units ... two different sets of A/V cables ... used different input/outputs on the DMR-E20 etc.

That is why I'm pretty sure the problem is with my DMR-E20 and based on other user comments it seems to be a problem with MY specific DMR-E20 as opposed ot a general DMR-E20 problem.

If you want I will send you the VHS SLP/EP speed tape as long as you are willing to send it back to me

I could send you a VHS copy of the tape but that would pretty much negate the testing and this tape is full of UFO type HISTORY MYSTERY episdoes that I want to keep

PM me if you want it for testing.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[rw2516]

I have the E-30 and would get the same thing when recording from a macrovision protected tape. It usually popped up when there was a lot of red or blue in the picture or dark scenes of a b/w movie. When I would put the device to beat macrovision between two vcrs it wasn't there, so it had to be something with the E30. I had to get a better box to beat the protection on factory dvds and haven't seen it since.

[netuer]

Can you just buy some other Panny DVD recorders from Best Buy or Circuit City? Try them out and then return it. Or if possible, just bring a DVD-RAM and VHS tape to the store and record it there.

Just a suggestion. It may be easier to decide if the recorder is a problem or not.

[FulciLives]

Can you just buy some other Panny DVD recorders from Best Buy or Circuit City? Try them out and then return it. Or if possible, just bring a DVD-RAM and VHS tape to the store and record it there.

Just a suggestion. It may be easier to decide if the recorder is a problem or not.

LOL

I doubt BEST BUY etc. would allow me to bring a VHS tape and record it on a stand alone DVD recorder ... especially at a busy time of the year like now.

Frankly I'm not too keen on buying another stand alone DVD recorder ... just wanted to use it as a TBC so IF I end up spending any money it will be to buy a real TBC unit and not another stand alone DVD recorder (I got this DMR-E20 for free).

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[luigi2000]

What you are noticing is that the color circuitry of the Panasonic recorder is not locked up or tracking the color error until several lines after the vertical blanking interval.

The third image appears to be a single field. The information at the top of the raster is closed caption data which is not visible on an overscanned monitor.

Is pass-thru time base correction an advertised feature of the recorder? Or is this just something that seems to work sometimes?

Bona fortuna.

[FulciLives]

What you are noticing is that the color circuitry of the Panasonic recorder is not locked up or tracking the color error until several lines after the vertical blanking interval.

The third image appears to be a single field. The information at the top of the raster is closed caption data which is not visible on an overscanned monitor.

Is pass-thru time base correction an advertised feature of the recorder? Or is this just something that seems to work sometimes?

Bona fortuna.

Well I got a DMR-E20 from a friend for free. It's an indefinate loan meaning it's probably mine but I dare not sell it in case he ever wants it back. I don't like it because of the black level bug and the fact that I prefer AVI captures so I have more control on the MPEG-2 encoding via software such as being able to do a true multi-pass VBR encode.

But since I have it I thought I would use it as a pass-thru to take advantage of the TBC

Then I realized the TBC is for shit. At least on this DMR-E20 although it sounds as though it is a specific problem to my unit as opposed ot a problem with all DMR-E20 machines.

The first two pics were captured on my computer passing the singal through the DMR-E20 but the third picture was instead passed through a FORMAT CONVERTER that does PAL to NTSC and vice versa etc.

As I said I'm passing NTSC through the FORMAT CONVERTER so it is not doing any conversion (NTSC in and NTSC out) but like the Panny DMR-E20 the TBC kicks in. As you can see it is a better TBC I think. Overall the picture is cleaner and I don't get that strange 'haze' effect. However the picture does have noticeable distortion in regards to the image being "clean" but now it has "jaggies". My guess is the FORMAT CONVERTER doesn't have the best TBC built-into it.

So it looks like I will be saving up (probably will have to wait for my IRS income tax check) to buy the DataVideo TBC-1000 or the AVT-8710 by AV TOOL BOX

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[scottymac]

FulciLives, I think I'm having the same problem as you (Check out my latest topic in this section)

In addition to the colours fluctuating, I see the purple band every once in a while too.

Have you hooked the VCR up directly to the TV to see if the problem goes away?

[FulciLives]

FulciLives, I think I'm having the same problem as you (Check out my latest topic in this section)

In addition to the colours fluctuating, I see the purple band every once in a while too.

Have you hooked the VCR up directly to the TV to see if the problem goes away?

The problem is not my VCR nor my source (I tried different sources)

The problem ... in my case ... is definately the DMR-E20

I only tried the composite inputs but I tried all of them. I have a S-VHS VCR but it broke a while ago. It can pass video and audio though but I didn't try that (working VHS VCR composite out to broken S-VHS VCR then S-Video out to S-Video in on the DMR-E50).

I read your other thread which seems to indicate maybe this is a problem ONLY with the composite inputs.

Hmmm ...

Maybe I'll try passing something through the S-VHS VCR so as to have it converted to S-Video and use the S-Video input on the DMR-E20

I'll let you know how it goes ...

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[FulciLives]

Well no luck

I connected my working VHS VCR to the S-VHS VCR using the composite out and in then went from the S-VIDEO out of the S-VHS VCR to the S-VIDEO in of the Panny DMR-E20

The Panny DMR-E20 was then connected to my computers capture card with composite video.

Still had the blueish/purpleish "haze" at the top of the screen.

It's the unit plain and simple. It might not be as noticeable on a standard TV because of overscan. But it's there ... no doubt.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman