What's a good midrange TBC?

[adondeeres]

Does any one have recommendations as to which TBC I should be getting? I've been capturing with the ADVC-300 and I'm using a Sony VHS (SLV-N750)--not exactly top tier--but I'm having problems with my video flickering and my ADVC-300 pauses capture when that happens--sometimes it flickers for 5-10 seconds, so I lose 5-10 seconds of audio and I have to capture the audio separately put it in the video during the editing process. My understanding is that a TBC would really help in this area and I've been thinking about DataVideo's TBC-1000. Any pros/cons for this TBC? Are there any other TBC in this price range that would perform a better job and has more features?

Help is always appreciated.

Thanks!

[lordsmurf]

AVT-8710 $200

[orsetto]

Yup, as LS recommends, AVT-8710. Other than the Datavideo TBC-1000, the AVT-8710 is the only TBC available new at retail for under $500. (You might be able to find a TBC card for your PC in this price range but not a standalone external TBC like the Datavideo and AVT). The Datavideo is built better and has 4 sets of outputs. The AVT is really flimsy, has only 1 set of outputs, but does add basic proc amp controls that let you touch up color and brightness.

Either should solve your problem- it is the EXACT issue TBCs are designed to solve. LordSmurf and others here have used both units, they perform about the same. A few people have issues with one or the other depending on how "clean" the AC power coming into their house is: if you have crummy electricity, the AVT can produce color stripes and the Datavideo can produce interference patterns. Try to buy from a source that allows return/exchange, and use a good surge suppressor and/or voltage regulator.

There are tons of used "professional" TBCs available on the second-hand market for $100 or so, but these are a crapshoot. I've experimented with quite a few: they tend to be huge boxes that run hot and have VERY loud fans. Many have less-than-great image quality as standalones, they really need to be plugged into a professional suite of accessories to operate at peak performance. Go for the AVT or Datavideo, circuits are newer and more optimized for VHS.

[lordsmurf]

I wrote a post about a year ago that, in detail, described what I felt were the differences in the AVT-8710 and the TBC-1000.

The biggest flaw of the AVT-8710 is it is plastic and it gets hot really easy, so be sure it's "in the open". Another issue is it likes to "freak out" from time to time, almost always during power-on or if the wires get touched any. You have to unplug it, let it sit for about 10 seconds, then plug it back in again. I had no power switch, so pulling the plug is the power (I pull the wire from the box, not the wire from the wall).

I can't use my TBC-1000 where I live now. I have something goofy going on with the power in this house. One lamp and this TBC (even through a UPS with AVR) pick up whatever it is. Both devices are fine elsewhere. The 8710 works like a champ though. Given how the price has actually gone up on these, I'll probably go and sell it in the future.

Good to see your posts orsetto. More in-the-know folks are nice to have around here.

[adondeeres]

orsetto and lordsmurf: Thanks so much to the both of you for providing such informative responses. I think I found the post that compares the AVT-8710 and the TBC-1000: https://forum.videohelp.com/topic307018.html

I'll probably be leaning more towards the TBC-1000 since I don't want to deal with the heating issues--I tend to capture for long hours since I prefer to edit/encode/author in large batches.

I discovered a local company that can special order the TBC-1000 for me and if it needs to be returned, there's a 15% restocking fee. However, they also informed me that DataVideo has a Demo Program that is completely free, which would allow me to give the TBC-1000 a test run before purchasing it. Hopefully it does its job and doesn't have any issues with my electricity. The one thing that I've noticed is that VHS tapes play better upstairs than they do downstairs--there always seems to be a bit more "static". I use a surge protector and all, but it's just not possible to capture video upstairs.

I'll give an update once I get to test it out.

[adondeeres]

I picked up the DataVideo's TBC-1000 today (through their demo program) and it's not doing what I expected it to do. It was supposedly inspected on 6/07 (perhaps they only tested to see if it was outputting video and not correcting issues with problematic tapes??).

I am using a Sony SLV-N750 to play the VHS tape, it outputting to the TBC-1000, which is outputting to my ADVC-300, which is connected to my computer via firewire 400--everything is connected to an APC battery backup device. I tried capturing without the battery backup and didn't notice any difference. I'm currently using RCA/composite cables--I also tried S-Video and didn't notice any differences.

I thought it was perhaps because of the location, so I took the VHS tape upstairs, played on another VCR (same model) and directly outputted from the TBC-1000 to my TV and still had the exact same results.

Throughout all of this, I've tried switching all of my cables to the ones that were included with the TBC-1000--and the results are still the same.

Since I can't capture and upload a video of the problem I'm having, I decided to film it directly from my TV using my digital camcorder.

Here's the link for the video (my setup is: VCR --> TBC-1000 --> ADVC-300 --> TV --> video taped with my camcorder):

http://rapidshare.com/files/91386931/video.mpeg

Now, is the TBC-1000 supposed to correct this type of problem or is did I get a dud? It looks nice, but I can't say that it's new since it's been opened before by DataVideo (warranty sticker broken).

I'd be extremely grateful if someone could help me out. This is driving me nuts because a bunch of my tapes are like this and I need to find a way to put them on to DVD without losing much content.

[2Bdecided]

I don't know if the TBC-1000 is supposed to sort that - what does it look like VCR>TV direct?

From what you've posted, it looks like you need something that guarantees constant sync - even if the output is just black for a few moments. I have a DVD recorder that will do that, but don't have a TBC-1000.

Cheers,
David.

[orsetto]

Capturing to the PC introduces a host of sensitivities that have long since been solved on the standalone DVD recorders. For whatever reason PC capture cards will just choke to death on some random tapes that seem to play just fine directly thru the TV. A few years back DVD recorders had the same odd sensitivity but many current models made from 2005 on are now able to get a solid lock on signals that confuse PC capture cards.

My experience transferring problem VHS is limited to mostly JVC and Pioneer models. The JVC is rather sensitive, similar to a PC capture card. But my Pioneer 531 and 640 recorders have amazingly stable line inputs: whatever voodoo circuit they have in there is so good it actually outperforms pro gear like the TBC-1000 for some really weird issues. They handle gaps in the tape with no problem (where one recording on tape ends with some dead space before the next recording begins). Another perfect example is second or third generation VHS dubbed from original tapes that had skew and tear errors to begin with: when I record these horrendous dubs to my Pioneers, they totally lock onto the signal, reduce the tearing and distortion considerably and even reduce the chroma flashing typical to these kinds of tapes. The tapes look worse played directly from VCR to TV, and they look FAR worse played thru a PC capture card or my JVC recorder. Adding outboard TBCs from DataVideo, Panasonic and For-A resulted in either no improvement or added problems.

So before you give up altogether, see if you can borrow or rent a late-model Pioneer 540, 543, 640, 450, 550 or 650 recorder. Try recording your tape to one of them. These machines can record on ANY media including DVD-RAM, so you can take the unfinalized disc out and import the video into your PC editing program directly. Or, if you only have simple cuts editing in mind, you can do it right on the recorders own hard drive before the transfer to DVD. Note however that Pioneer decks do not function as "pass-through" stabilizers: you need to make the recording onto the Pioneer itself. There are a couple of Panasonic and Toshiba models that allow some "pass through" stabilizing functionality, but they are long discontinued and not easy to obtain quickly. They also may not solve your problem- try a Pioneer first if you can get your hands on one.

[davideck]

The Video Clip shows significant areas of dropout which likely include the Vertical Interval region. Much or all of the Vertical Sync is probably missing during many fields. I doubt that any TBC will be able to maintain proper picture position throughout this type of dropout.

Your TBC-1000 is probably fine. It does provide continuous sync at its output, but it is simply unable to stay vertically locked to this input source.

Manually adjusting the tracking or using a different VCR might improve things a little...

[adondeeres]

I don't know if the TBC-1000 is supposed to sort that - what does it look like VCR>TV direct?

From what you've posted, it looks like you need something that guarantees constant sync - even if the output is just black for a few moments. I have a DVD recorder that will do that, but don't have a TBC-1000.

Cheers,
David.

It looks the same from VCR to TV without the ADVC-300 or TBC-1000.


I remembered hearing people say that TBC's can remove macrovision, so I tried it with one of the very few commercial tapes that I purchased way back when and I found out that it does remove macrovision, so I guess it's safe to assume that it is a fully functional unit.

Would it make a difference if I said that this wasn't the original tape? This is actually a copy of a copy. Would that pretty much settle the issue that it can't be corrected, or would I still benefit by finding a much better VCR? All of these tapes were also recorded in EP mode.

Thanks for the helpful responses everybody.

[orsetto]

You've apparently got a real killer of a bad tape there. Your added info that it is a 2nd-3rd generation dub pretty much eliminates the value of the last option we could suggest, which would be a VCR with built-in TBC circuits as found in select JVC, Mitsubishi and Panasonic models. The functionality of the VCR-based TBC is quite different from an outboard TBC like the DataVideo. I don't really know what the technical explanation is but the built-ins can correct many issues the outboard TBCs don't help with at all.

Unfortunately the achilles heel of the VCR-based internal TBCs is conflict with multi-generational copied tapes: they just don't like 'em and will often cause worse problems than they solve. If you can borrow one of these special VCRs you could give it a try, each tape is different and theres a small chance yours might be helped a bit using the fancy VCR. Pro or semi-pro rental houses are more likely to have the newer DVHS models, try to rent a Mitsubishi HS-HD2000U or the similar model JVC DVHS, I think the model number is 400. Or ask if they have an older Panasonic AG-1980 SVHS, most places are sitting on a bunch of those since they were the unit of choice for wedding videographers all thru the 1990s.

[adondeeres]

I've just recently found out something interesting, to say the least. Although my new JVC SR-VD400US VCR now eliminates most of the shakiness in that same video I posted up above, I just found out that that shakiness only occurs under one condition.

The video I linked to up above was played on a Sony SLV-N750 VCR through a composite cable (that shakiness occurred even after switching through multiple composite cables and even after playing the video on the an older Sony VCR--also occurred on every TV I have in my house). However, I just discovered that there is hardly any shakiness at all if the VCRs output to the TVs via regular coaxial CATV cables. Of course, I can't exactly capture and archive those tapes onto DVD without outputting via composite cables. Anyone have any ideas why this might be? What's the difference?

[disturbed1]

I've just recently found out something interesting, to say the least. Although my new JVC SR-VD400US VCR now eliminates most of the shakiness in that same video I posted up above, I just found out that that shakiness only occurs under one condition.

The video I linked to up above was played on a Sony SLV-N750 VCR through a composite cable (that shakiness occurred even after switching through multiple composite cables and even after playing the video on the an older Sony VCR--also occurred on every TV I have in my house). However, I just discovered that there is hardly any shakiness at all if the VCRs output to the TVs via regular coaxial CATV cables. Of course, I can't exactly capture and archive those tapes onto DVD without outputting via composite cables. Anyone have any ideas why this might be? What's the difference?

That's an interesting ordeal.

You have 2-3 VHS decks. Play the tape with the best unit VIA coax to the second unit. Output from the second unit into your ADVC 300 It's like using the VHS deck as a TV tuner to capture from.

A ----coax------ B -----SVIDEO/Composite-------- ADVC

Just taking a stab in the dark here - perhaps the coax is masking the high frequency noise that was recorded into the tape. Considering quality, and the amount of information passed goes coax < composite < S-Video < Component < DVI/HDMI. Maybe it's just the modulation to demodulation that is taking place with the coax cable The way a cassette tape will have less high frequency noise compared to a CD. Older analog recordings can sound better on tape/LP compared to CD because of CDs ability to produce the noise that was never heard on a tape. Sometimes I capture with composite instead of S-Video, because S-Video can amplify the noise that is usually hidden by the composite's less superior resolution.

[adondeeres]

That's an interesting ordeal.

You have 2-3 VHS decks. Play the tape with the best unit VIA coax to the second unit. Output from the second unit into your ADVC 300 It's like using the VHS deck as a TV tuner to capture from.

A ----coax------ B -----SVIDEO/Composite-------- ADVC

Just taking a stab in the dark here - perhaps the coax is masking the high frequency noise that was recorded into the tape. Considering quality, and the amount of information passed goes coax < composite < S-Video < Component < DVI/HDMI. Maybe it's just the modulation to demodulation that is taking place with the coax cable The way a cassette tape will have less high frequency noise compared to a CD. Older analog recordings can sound better on tape/LP compared to CD because of CDs ability to produce the noise that was never heard on a tape. Sometimes I capture with composite instead of S-Video, because S-Video can amplify the noise that is usually hidden by the composite's less superior resolution.

That's an interesting thought. I'll have to try that out when I get back from vacation. I thought I was the only one who found S-Video sometimes creates more noise than composite cables. It was strange when I first noticed it; I initially thought there was something wrong with my cables (not the case after extensive testing), even though I've been using heavy duty Monster cables when capturing from analog sources.

[lordsmurf]

This tape may benefit from the Panasonic AG-1980P S-VHS VCR.
For the tracking, not the TBC.