Yes. I am referring to "solid" models with TBC features. You are talking about larger range of devices, something different.
Of course, but not significantly about the models I mentioned.
That's your (false) theory, as usual. You do not know what you dont know (me in this case). And nothing I wrote is false.
Of course there is not single best model, largely depends on the tapes. That's why we have several descks for different cases. We are talking here about specific models, but as usual you add your blah blah to put smoke in the eyes of the readers with useless (in this contest) technicalities
Are you serious? You said I did not read correctly the (false) staement in DigitalFAQ. Now you say the 9500 is not suggested?
In any case, explain and show why and how the S9500 is not good with real facts and capture samples highlighting the (immaginary) defects, rather than usual blah blah blah.
In the meantime you can look to the "image quality" and "stability, TBC strength, audio, etc," (as you wrote) of my captures.
Then we'll compare.
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The VR1100 has an edit setting, you have to use the smart picture button on the remote and and set it to "distinct". It's one of the differences between the Philips variant and the JVC versions where it's set in the menu. Once you do that the output will probably be very similar since they use the same mechanism 95% the same parts ICs as they are from the same generation, the philips (JVC) just has the SVHS and 3D DNR ICs tacked on + an added tape stabilizer thingy on the mechanism and maybe slightly differend head drum. The difference will mainly be in the 3D DNR/TBC function and S-video vs composite. (Provided neither of them suffer from issues with dropout masking like my VR1100 and HR-J681 do.)
I don't know for sure if it's true on all of the digipure TBC-equipped JVCs but at least on my S8600 the luma part of the 3D DNR is always active to some degree even when the TBC is turned off which can result in some ghosting - so if not using the TBC I prever to use a variant without TBC/DNR to avoid that.
(The VR1100 is closer to the JVC HR-S77xx / HR-S78xx models, It's the VR1000 that's the analogue to the HR-S7600).
The difference between EG/EK/E_ etc models are only non-relevant country-specific stuff like tuner/modulator as far as I know. MS/ME variants are different though since they are secam or multi-standard. There are also both made in EU and made in Japan variants of some models but idk if either is preferable to the other.
As for the 1998 models, the PAL HR-S8500 and 9500 are basically going to be the same for capture, only difference is in edit features, while the simpler PAL HR-S7500 does not feature the TBC/DNR function but also doesn't have the failure-prone dynamic drum. Annoyingly unlike in the later lineups the non-SVHS models in this and earlier lineups does not feature EDIT mode. -
Thanks for the info. I haven't even read the instructions yet. Unfortunately, I have a universal remote for a Philips VCR's and there is no equivalent to this button, and from the OSD I see that the default is AUTO.
Once you do that the output will probably be very similar since they use the same mechanism 95% the same parts ICs as they are from the same generation, the philips (JVC) just has the SVHS and 3D DNR ICs tacked on + an added tape stabilizer thingy on the mechanism and maybe slightly differend head drum. The difference will mainly be in the 3D DNR/TBC function and S-video vs composite. (Provided neither of them suffer from issues with dropout masking like my VR1100 and HR-J681 do.)
I don't know for sure if it's true on all of the digipure TBC-equipped JVCs but at least on my S8600 the luma part of the 3D DNR is always active to some degree even when the TBC is turned off which can result in some ghosting - so if not using the TBC I prever to use a variant without TBC/DNR to avoid that.
(The VR1100 is closer to the JVC HR-S77xx / HR-S78xx models, It's the VR1000 that's the analogue to the HR-S7600).Last edited by rgr; 16th Oct 2024 at 11:30.
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I don't know for sure if it's true on all of the digipure TBC-equipped JVCs but at least on my S8600 the luma part of the 3D DNR is always active to some degree even when the TBC is turned off which can result in some ghosting - so if not using the TBC I prever to use a variant without TBC/DNR to avoid that.
Other interesting thread: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/395451-Chroma-mess
And thanks for you valuable information, as always -
The luma of the Philips is clipped on the whites. One cannot expect details/fine structures there. (The j672 is not clipped).
[Attachment 82865 - Click to enlarge] -
This would explain why there is no overexposure in the upper left corner.
Nevertheless, I checked it on another video:
https://pasteboard.co/WxDLQ37d1PkA.png
https://pasteboard.co/awmnMZeQqJMm.png
or:
https://pasteboard.co/TAlT9rkTxywu.png
https://pasteboard.co/x7cliVY4oqDD.pngLast edited by rgr; 16th Oct 2024 at 14:42.
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rgr, I understand that probably because privacy you cannot provide a video sample to better analyze the case, but on my side is difficult to conclude. Maybe Sharc may have found a good explanation about the reason of a less detailed capture. Difficult to say more.
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Originally Posted by rgr
I'm amused at how you always try to use my own words against me. But you try too hard, and you don't make sense when you do it. That's not proper situational usage of that phrase. Just stop already. Why must you always be hostile?Want my help? Ask here! (not via PM!)
FAQs: Best Blank Discs • Best TBCs • Best VCRs for capture • Restore VHS -
I have never seen that head wear would blur a picture. I think we are just fooled by the oversharpened j672 picture.
Attached a quick'n dirty processing of the Philips picture. If one could have avoided the brights clipping the pictures would probably look much the same at the end.
@rgr: I don't know where the hard clipping at y=235 for the Philips comes from. Maybe it's your SW/editor, capture device, VCR player, passthrough device (if any). Brights clipping is an issue, see the .mpg attachement here for various VCRs (see the white text in the headline).
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/414871-Best-VCR-opinion#post2738885
You could try to adjust the proc-amp settings and/or disable any "limiter" function in your workflow. Worst case you would have to insert an attenuator pad in the analog signal path. Depending where the clipping happens it may be a lost case though.
If you can't disable the oversharpening of the j672 I would probably spend little time trying to improve the levels setup of the Philips and do the rest in post.
Philips with little post processing (can't really fix the baked-in brights clipping of course):Last edited by Sharc; 17th Oct 2024 at 04:11.
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It's normal that the VR1100 capture will look a little less detailed than the J672 one since the VR1100 one is with the auto setting which has noise reduction active (+ the DNR stuff from the TBC/DNR unit) while the J672 one is in edit mode which turns off most or all of the noise reduction and filtering. If you put the J672 into the standard picture mode it would probably also look more blurry.
The B.E.S.T setting (called D.S.P.C on the philips) will also impact things if it's enabled as it tweaks the deemphasis/eq of the image a little based on some heuristics afaik so it could blur/sharpen things a little - I don't think it does anything in EDIT mode even though it shows up but not entirely sure. -
I agree. But about J672 into the standard picture mode it may be a bit better than VR1100 (NR being different)
I confirm that B.E.S.T. setting has no impact in edit mode about details, blur, sharpen. Here an example with S9500 device:
frame 420 comparison
with image slider: https://imgsli.com/MzA4NDg5
frame 560 comparison
with image slider: https://imgsli.com/MzA4NDkw
frame 2020 comparison
with image slider: https://imgsli.com/MzA4NDkx
I do not have right now access to my S9600 or S9850 (borrowed to friends for capturing), but even if their NR related to TBC is more aggressive, I assume the same applies. -
I thought i might add my results after looking at rgr HR-J672 and Philips V1100. I used composite HR-J668 and s-video HR-S7500, both PAL and in edit mode captured with hauppauge live 2 with DMR-ES10 as passthrough device. I usually dont like results from S7500, it seems to blur more details compared to J668.
https://imgsli.com/MzA4MzA0/2/3 -
I don't think the head is the problem. I tested it on SVHS tapes and tapes recorded in LP. Flawless, perfect image. Of course, apart from what you can see in the screenshots
I just have to switch it to Edit mode to draw conclusions. I'll try to turn off BEST mode.
Are there any files to copy from DVD to VHS to make a "master" tape for testing? The only thing I found online is an ISO with a color test like https://github.com/danmons/FreeCalRec601 -
With a quick check the 2 captures look quite similar to me. A small advantage to the J668 in the details of the first shirt hanging on the rope and of the grid in the background.
https://imgsli.com/MzA4NTQx
The script I used:
Code:video_dir_1=".\" video_1="j668.avi" video_dir_2=".\" video_2="s7500.avi" v1=AviSource(video_dir_1+video_1).AssumeTFF().QTGMC(lossless=1).SelectEvery(1,0,0).crop(2,0,0,0).addborders(2,0,0,0).tweak(bright=-5) v2=AviSource(video_dir_2+video_2).AssumeTFF().QTGMC(lossless=1).SelectEvery(1,0,0) #stackhorizontal(\ interleave(\ subtitle(v1,video_1,size=20,align=2),\ subtitle(v2,video_2,size=20,align=2)\ )
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Correct, Head wear results in low RF signal, therefore RF noise as black and white grains or comets.
From what I understand the B.E.S.T feature works at the RF level before the signal has any visual meaning, So I highly doubt it has any effect on the video visually (besides noise), RF is essentially like digital, good signal means the content is intact, bad signal means glitches in this case RF noise. -
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Want my help? Ask here! (not via PM!)
FAQs: Best Blank Discs • Best TBCs • Best VCRs for capture • Restore VHS -
Interleaving the 2 versions one can see that
- the brights clipping is on the source (tape, camera, or passthrough device if in use)
- the s7500 is slightly darker
- the j668 pushes the brights even harder towards clipped Y=234 ("a bit hot"). See for example around 05:42 and 07:40 in the attachment.
- one can see the dotcrawl of the composite j668 at the bottom in the head switching area, see around 03:44 for example. The useful picture is mostly fine though.Last edited by Sharc; 18th Oct 2024 at 02:11.
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I checked my captures again and it wasn't my fault indeed. It seems like J668 clipped brightes here a little more than S7500. I checked that again using my slightly different capture made with J668 + DMR-EH65 + Intensity Pro HDMI route (without ES10, EH65 only). Haven't noticed that till now.
https://imgsli.com/MzA4ODM5/0/1Last edited by Krazern; 18th Oct 2024 at 12:57.
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For the DMR-EH65 + Intensity Pro HDMI route you are clipping the whites:
And while there, is interesting to see a comparison of a capture with the standard flow using the Hauppauge USB-Live 2 and the alternative flow where the digitizer is the DMR-EH65 (the alternative flow has not been equalized for brightness), for all people wondering how the 2 techniques perform (a sligth advantage for the standard approach)
with image slider https://imgsli.com/MzA4ODY3
Note that there is an ES10 as passthrough device for both capture, if i read correctly -
I skipped ES10 here to avoid unnecessary D/A conversion, EH65 passthrough is the same as ES15 so it's pretty comparable.
I'm still not sure why its worse while i can adjust brightness later and bring back clipped whites unlike in Hauppauge where it's not possible to do so after capturing tapes.Last edited by Krazern; 18th Oct 2024 at 13:32.
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So the "standard" workflow suffers from the insertion of an additional device (having its drawbacks). One more "advantage" point to the "standard" workflow, then. For sure the right comparison would be using the proper player (VCR with TBC) since the beginning in both methods, to have a fair judgement.
Not sure I understand your statement, but you will not be able to bring back what is clipped during capture in post processing, whatever device does the A/D conversion. -
Why it's an advantage to the standard workflow? I always thought keeping the least devices in the capturing chain is good. Here the D/A conversion on output is avoided and direct A/D conversion is being captured through HDMI.
I meant that if i try to adjust brightness and contrast in e.g vdub i can recover details in whites that look blown (not in the range?).
I did that to this EH65 sample below. -
Well, using the ES-10 is just plugging in an extra device and doing an extra D/A conversion, right? Using the EH65 (and capturing from HDMI) is just one A/D conversion.
However, in the example I pasted in post #39 I see no such problems.
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