Deinterlacing in 2024...

[VHSvideocapture]

It doesn't matter what your Windows OS is. Windows 64bit will run VDub32 happily. The critical issue is the bitness of the VDub you're using. You need 32bit filters for the 32bit version and 64bit filters for the 64bit version.

The advantage of the 64bit version of VDub is that it has available much more memory so if you're doing really exotic things with your video, eg AVISynth, you are much less likely to have a out of memory VDub crash.

What plugins are you talking about?

Most virtualdub filters are 32bit I've not seen that many 64bit ones.

Win64bit does run 32bit VD but when I save plug ins to the 32bit plug-in folderthey don't show up in filters, they only show up if I load manually by clicking load in the filters section in VD.

[VHSvideocapture]

If I may chime in, I would skip the lossless altogether, capture to DNxHR HQ, even professionals don't work with lossless.

Many professional cameras record in both RAW and ProRes, and ProRes is what is sent out to the editors, but those editors are using Macs.

Read the articles I link to at the end, it changed my work flow, simplified it and really sped things up.

Bottom line is the OP needs to simplify his workflow.

https://blog.frame.io/2017/02/15/choose-the-right-codec/

https://blog.frame.io/2017/08/07/prores-on-windows/

https://blog.frame.io/2017/02/13/compare-50-intermediate-codecs/

I'm capturing VHS 📼 and I need lossless interlaced for cleaning up and de-interlacing

[lollo]

Yes, VHSvideocapture, capture lossless and just ignore him

[sophisticles]

Yes, VHSvideocapture, capture lossless and just ignore him

Because you said so?

If you bother to read the articles, you will note that even in professional movie production, compositing, grading, etc are done on near lossless proxies.

@OP, if you can capture to one codec you can capture to any codec installed, at least in theory,

Using DNxHR HQ opens up a bunch of possibilities with regards to software you can use and it avoids the issues that PDR outlined with regards to color space problems.

Lossless should only be used for archiving the footage.

My suggestion is do the same project twice, once as the lossless capture crowd is instructing you and once to DNxHR HQ and compare the results.

Then you can decide for yourself which is right for you.

[lollo]

Because you said so?

No. Because you don’t know what you are talking about.

[Alwyn]

and once to DNxHR HQ

How do you propose that this be done? What hardware and software? Do you have a link to the DNxHR codec?

[Sharc]

and once to DNxHR HQ

How do you propose that this be done? What hardware and software? Do you have a link to the DNxHR codec?

Its available with ffmpeg, Shotcut ....
http://macilatthefront.blogspot.com/2018/12/tutorial-using-ffmpeg-for-dnxhddnxhr.html

The discussion "is near lossless as good as lossless" is pretty moot IMO. The difference is filesize if that matters.

[Alwyn]

Sharc, that's encoding a video you already have: "Tutorial - Using FFMPEG for DNxHD/DNxHR encoding, resizing, and batch encoding".

I'm asking how we capture into DNxHR.

[VHSvideocapture]

Yes, VHSvideocapture, capture lossless and just ignore him

I will capture losslessly because it keeps all the information possible even after a few re-encodes

[VHSvideocapture]

My only issue left is can I export from Vegas movie studio in YUY2
What are the best settings and if it does convert to RGB can I use
RGB to YUV2 colorspace conversion I think hybrid can do this if you set it to.

VD does thus if you apply any VD filter because filters work in RGB only VD does
the conversation during render as long as you have it set in the settings to YUV/2
4:2:2 in the depth option on the menu which I have.

Would premiere be a better choice to do this?
Which software csn export without changing YUY2 to RGB, I wss not even thinking about this issue and this issue has become a big problem for me now or I could just ignore the colorspace conversion and not worry about it.

Will ot be visible in the final.h264 file if YUY2 has been converted wrongly to RG,B?
Does it really matter that much? Looking for all opinions on this
Thanks to all

[rgr]

What is the solution if I want to export Huffyuv from Vegas in YUV2?.

But why? Use Vegas for final editing and final encoding.
And if you must, use ProRes.
Or Vukoder plugin and lossless H264 encoding (10bit, YUV444).

Looking at your operations, I wonder at what point you will save Rec601 as Rec709 and the colors will go to waste After going through Vegas, I'm guessing.

[VHSvideocapture]

But why? Use Vegas for final editing and final encoding.
And if you must, use ProRes.
Or Vukoder plugin and lossless H264 encoding (10bit, YUV444).

Looking at your operations, I wonder at what point you will save Rec601 as Rec709 and the colors will go to waste After going through Vegas, I'm guessing.

What if I de-interlace in hybrid thrn safe it as Huffyuv .

Take that hybrid encoded file into vegas and save it as .h264 in vegas
Will this be ok and will it save in correct colorspace?

How should it be exported in .h264 render template.
Upper field first, lower field first or progressive?

How should the project properties be set?
I think I was doing it all wrong before that's why im asking to make sure.

[oln]

assume you have a 10-bit 4:2:0 source

They've got 8bit 4:2:2. Is it even possible to capture VHS with consumer gear into DNxHR HQ?

It's possible to use ffmpeg to capture though it's a bit janky - granted if you want to use a modern near lossless codec you can also just use prores which is comes built in in virtualdub2. You have to make sure to set the settings properly with regards to interlacing though since the input is 2 fields weaved since it's no longer lossless we're dealing with.

[poisondeathray]

I will capture losslessly because it keeps all the information possible even after a few re-encodes

Something is "lossless" only if it's handled properly.

If you import a huffyuv 422 file , export huffyuv 422, you expect the same thing, right ? That's the whole point of a lossless codec, a lossless workflow ... it's supposed to be "lossless". That doesn't happen with vegas, or premiere


vegas + huffyuv using YUY2 is not lossless

If you are using huffyuv + vegas, you lose some of that information - sometimes critical information . It's impossible to color correct properly if you clip channels.

The other non lossless issues are more minor - rounding errors +/-3 from the RGB conversion, slight color shifts , chroma up/down sampling loss (less visible on low quality sources like VHS, but still loss) . Even if you export uncompressed, the loss is still there - because the errors are upstream in the handling - ie. it' s not an export issue, it's an import and handling issue of huffyuv

***The biggest problem are uncorrected overbrights before a typical RGB conversion (limited range YUV to full range RGB) - that include vdub RGB filters. They get clipped. Adjust your capture so it's within Y = 16-235, UV 16-240 either during the capture or afterwards, all in YUV. It's impossible to color correct properly if you clip channels before you even start. e.g. if you had a bright outdoor shot with sky , clouds - details in the sky can get clipped

Would premiere be a better choice to do this?

Premiere has a YUV timeline with YUV capable filters. However, YUV huffyuv (or YUV utvideo, YUV lagarith, etc...) get mishandled as RGB as well - They are not lossless and can possibly clip important data

Lossless handling in Premiere would be uncompressed UYVY for 8bit 422, or v210 for 10bit 422 . Unwieldy because they are uncompressed

[Sharc]

As I understand this it shouldn't be a problem with Shotcut as it doesn't make a YUV->RGB conversion at import. And it stays and does the processing in YUV unless one invokes a dedicated RGB filter, right?

Edit: The problem may still persist when the exported YUV gets eventually converted to RGB for viewing on a monitor/TV (8 bit realm).

[poisondeathray]

As I understand this it shouldn't be a problem with Shotcut as it doesn't make a YUV->RGB conversion at import. And it stays and does the processing in YUV unless one invokes a dedicated RGB filter, right?

huffyuv 422 is ok in shotcut - it's handled as YUV properly

Yes , if apply a RGB filter, then it gets converted to integer RGB , and there is loss from the conversion itself (besides the filter)

The RGB conversion and roundtrip back to YUV process itself can be lossless only if done in 32bit float and upsampled with nearest neighbor. That is reversible process and completely lossless if done properly. Very few programs can do this, because you have to control both the YUV<=>RGB and the chroma up/downsampling algorithm . Vapoursynth and avisynth can with zimg (not the internal convert functions)

[poisondeathray]

Edit: The problem may still persist when the exported YUV gets eventually converted to RGB for viewing on a monitor/TV (8 bit realm).

Which problem ?

The difference if you're viewing on a TV, is most use limited range RGB out of the box, or "TV levels" . You see more shadow and highlight detail because black to white is RGB 16-235. Y 16-235 => RGB 16-235. Or Y 0-255 to RGB 0-255. It's not hard clipped. Over and undershoots are more visible on most TV displays, even cheap ones. In contrast, "PC levels" on a monitor use Y 16-235 => RGB 0-255 (full range RGB).

e.g. if you hook up an old camcorder, or watch digital camcorder file directly with overbrights - bright shots show details, not clipped

The TV example is effectively a "studio range RGB" conversion in vegas . Y 0-255 => RGB 0-255 , instead of Y 16-235 => 0-255 that happens with vegas + huffyuv . You lose 0-15, and 236-255 with the "computer range RGB" vegas conversion which happens with "YUV" lossless codecs - Which are not lossless in vegas, for multiple reasons

But with shotcut, you have the ability to bring Y 0-255 to Y16-235, before applying a RGB filter to prevent clipping ( you still incur the other losses with integer RGB conversion and back to YUV, if applying a RGB filter, but not the additional clipping) .

Not with vegas + huffyuv in 422 . The damage occurs immediately upon import, there is a RGB filter inserted automatically before user can do anything (not even newer Magix versions that have more interpretation options can salvage) . That is why you must ensure all huffyuv/lagarith/utvideo YUV imports are "legal range" before importing into vegas. Or use a format that gets treated as YUV (or studio Range RGB treatment in vegas)

[_Al_]

capture to a DV codec, edit in Vegas, export DV (for later deinterlacing denoising) you get exactly the same video, fast editing ....

[oln]

Yeah when importing into the modern proprietary NLEs using a modern near-lossless intermediary (you may have to convert to it rather than capture in it depending on setup) like ProRes or DNxHR, or even v210 uncompressed may work better. (Open source ones like shotcut, kdenlive etc tend to be based around ffmpeg/libavcodec so they handle most lossless codecs no problem)

[lollo]

VHScapture, as explained by others you have many options. First:
- capture lossless
- in AviSynth (or Hybrid if you prefere) deinterlace with QTMGC , denoise and output lossless YUV

Now you can go to an editor supporting lossless YUV as input or, as alternative, you can do the color correction while in AviSynth after denoise and before generating the output, staying then in a YUV colorspace. For basic processing, the AviSynth functions and filters are often adequate.

If you want to go to your preferred editor Vegas, you can avoid the "illegal" YUV values (while in AviSynth) adjusting the input levels to stay in the range 16-235, to avoid clipping. This is the most important thing to fix.

In addition to the level-fix need, as master poisondeathray wrote, the YUV-RGB conversion is not (generally) complete lossless (except if you use special functions). However, in my experience, this loss is marginal and generally not noticeable, given the source (I experienced that with ColorMill in VirtualDub, which requires RGB colorspace, not with Vegas).

[lollo]

capture to a DV codec, edit in Vegas, export DV (for later deinterlacing denoising) you get exactly the same video, fast editing ....

And you lose quality

[Sharc]

Edit: The problem may still persist when the exported YUV gets eventually converted to RGB for viewing on a monitor/TV (8 bit realm).

Which problem ?

The difference if you're viewing on a TV, is most use limited range RGB out of the box, or "TV levels" . You see more shadow and highlight detail because black to white is RGB 16-235. Y 16-235 => RGB 16-235. Or Y 0-255 to RGB 0-255. It's not hard clipped. Over and undershoots are more visible on most TV displays, even cheap ones. In contrast, "PC levels" on a monitor use Y 16-235 => RGB 0-255 (full range RGB).

Yep, I missed that TVs use limited range RGB out of the box. I had the PC matrix in mind. Thanks for clarification.

[_Al_]

With DV it was so easy then, having a DV camcorder then, oh the simplicity ....

If color grading or using LUTs, that is always in RGB, Vegas or not, is it correct?

op says he is using some third party plugins, he is accustomed to use. So yes, if he deinterlaces and makes levels legal in avisynth, vapoursynth, that would work. Then possibly change it to RGB right there as well to control YUV to RGB (for either Vegas and color correction is in rgb anyway).

If having a rgb you can also automatize to adjusting levels using a custom LUT (*.cube) in that avisynth, vapoursynth right there, that you come up yourself beforehand for your kind of capture. You get you own custom LUT, to adjust levels. Something like here. Or just make it full rgb in script and legalize using LUT in Vegas.
Bonus, you can use neat video (in rgb using virtual dub plugin), I was using it in avisynth back then. So you denoise it right in that script at the end or you other denoisers, if you provide a sample, Im sure denoisers would be recommended.

Then import that lossless into Vegas. Edit your progressive video, color grade it AND then using plugin voukoder to get a mp4 (H264, AAC) video. Not needing to use Hybrid. It would be interesting how that H264 levels would turn out from that possible 0-255 full RGB to limited YUV. Voukoder has a lots of filters there as well during settings.


Why not to upload your typical VHS capture, some sample here, so we could try it for you, possibly even give you that LUT to adjust levels, or tell you how to do it in Vegas. You'd get lots of ideas from other workflow suggestions, it is much different then theorize on it.

[_Al_]

Or another idea, use Hybrid to just fix your video, deinterlace, legalize levels, denoise and then import lossless rgb in Vegas for editing, color grading, exporting.

[poisondeathray]

If color grading or using LUTs, that is always in RGB, Vegas or not, is it correct?

Yes, vegas uses RGB , period. Regardless . Even if you're editing with no filters (except for cuts only editing with a smart rendering format, with smart rendering enabled), you incur RGB conversion intermediate step

The difference is which RGB conversion is used in vegas. Studio Range RGB or Computer Range RGB - Different formats get different treatment in vegas. You get potential visible clipping with the latter . Potentially a serious problem, visible quality loss

All "lossless" yuv codecs like huffyuv in yuv mode, lagarith, ut video in YUV mode etc... get Computer Range RGB treatment, not Studio Range RGB treatment in vegas

All "native" camera codecs, like MPEG2, DV, HDV, AVCHD get Studio Range RGB treatment. ProRes, DNxHR/DNxHD, Cineform get also get Studio Range RGB treatment in vegas . v210 and UYVY for uncompressed 10bit422 and 8bit422 get studio RGB treatment - they actually get passthrough too with cuts only editing

If having a rgb you can also automatize to adjusting levels using a custom LUT (*.cube) in that avisynth, vapoursynth right there, that you come up yourself beforehand for your kind of capture

But the RGB conversion would have to be in float, or use you have to specify a full range conversion, otherwise you would clip there too

Voukoder has a lots of filters there as well during settings.

I would use voukoder and x264 for exporting, but I'm not sure if it works with the Vegas Movie Studio version (He doesn't have the Vegas Pro version). The benefit is adjustable lossless (or lossy) , interlaced TFF or BFF signaling, AR (SAR) signalling, that other programs will read correctly without having to manually override or interpret settings. He expressed some issues exporting

[VHSvideocapture]

capture to a DV codec, edit in Vegas, export DV (for later deinterlacing denoising) you get exactly the same video, fast editing ....

Quality loss
Chroma, color and detail loss

[VHSvideocapture]

Or another idea, use Hybrid to just fix your video, deinterlace, legalize levels, denoise and then import lossless rgb in Vegas for editing, color grading, exporting.

Issue my lossless are captured YUY2. It's what everybody recommends here.

[VHSvideocapture]

With DV it was so easy then, having a DV camcorder then, oh the simplicity ....

If color grading or using LUTs, that is always in RGB, Vegas or not, is it correct?

op says he is using some third party plugins, he is accustomed to use. So yes, if he deinterlaces and makes levels legal in avisynth, vapoursynth, that would work. Then possibly change it to RGB right there as well to control YUV to RGB (for either Vegas and color correction is in rgb anyway).

If having a rgb you can also automatize to adjusting levels using a custom LUT (*.cube) in that avisynth, vapoursynth right there, that you come up yourself beforehand for your kind of capture. You get you own custom LUT, to adjust levels. Something like here. Or just make it full rgb in script and legalize using LUT in Vegas.
Bonus, you can use neat video (in rgb using virtual dub plugin), I was using it in avisynth back then. So you denoise it right in that script at the end or you other denoisers, if you provide a sample, Im sure denoisers would be recommended.

Then import that lossless into Vegas. Edit your progressive video, color grade it AND then using plugin voukoder to get a mp4 (H264, AAC) video. Not needing to use Hybrid. It would be interesting how that H264 levels would turn out from that possible 0-255 full RGB to limited YUV. Voukoder has a lots of filters there as well during settings.


Why not to upload your typical VHS capture, some sample here, so we could try it for you, possibly even give you that LUT to adjust levels, or tell you how to do it in Vegas. You'd get lots of ideas from other workflow suggestions, it is much different then theorize on it.

All editing softwares convert to RGB automatically when imported? Have I understood that correctly?
I am using basic color correction plug ins in virtualdub for basic color correction, I also have neat video for cleaning up in virtuldub which is a must on VHS, that also works in RGB then virtuldub converts RGB to YUV2.

Final file is Huff or lagrith lossless capture YUV2 4:2:2 then it goes into vegas now is where things get messy the experts and users that know what they are doing say that Vegas converts to RGB anyway.

This is what I'm going to do be doing 1vcapture in VD lossless de-noise then 2 take the file to Hybrid de-interlace (resize if needed) save as Huff, up to here it's good but then the hybrid huff generated file goes into vegas for editing, color correction it then converts to RGB and the final file is RGB

The way you have suggested seems very long winded I wanted to do it the easy way and without using any scripting.
I'm not on PC im using my phone and captures are on hard drive I will see what I can get to show you.

[poisondeathray]

All editing softwares convert to RGB automatically when imported? Have I understood that correctly?

No

e.g. Premiere has YUV capable timeline, YUV capable filters. Shotcut can work in YUV too

But huffyuv YUY2 gets converted to RGB automatically in Premiere and Vegas. For vegas it gets the "bad" RGB conversion with clipping - computer RGB conversion, not studio RGB conversion . Clipping is data loss. The opposite of "lossless"

I am using basic color correction plug ins in virtualdub for basic color correction, I also have neat video for cleaning up in virtuldub which is a must on VHS, that also works in RGB then virtuldub converts RGB to YUV2.

Those concepts mentioned above apply to vdub RGB filters such as deshaker, and neat video too. That typical RGB conversion can be damaging. Make sure you have legalized the YUV range to Y 16-235, CbCr 16-240 before any RGB conversion in vdub too, also vegas . Or control so you get a full range conversion to prevent Y 0-15, 236-255 range clipping right off the bat

[_Al_]

To keep whatever you are used to, you can try to legalize levels (or using lut if possible), deinterlace, even denoise in Hybrid, get an rgb lossless and load it in Vegas, where you can do again whatever you used to do (color grading in rgb, etc.)and then export (possibly even voucoder plugin or not).
If I were you I tried that. possible hiccups:
1.Is Hybrid offering some lossless or almost lossless RGB?
2.To watch if export is really ok, RGB lossless to YUV limited (that is why I mentioned voucoder plugin, because it has tons of settings as well to adjust anything if needed)