Make PNGs into 96 dpi 48 bit PDFs

[Mr. Fanservice]

So how do I get or make true 16bit pdf files, then?

They are truly 16bit images in the PDF - but there is negligible quality loss in the intermediate processing. I don't know of any other way besides Adobe to make and extract the images in 16bit . Some tools are pure 8bit

What is the background information and source of the images ? Do they have real 16bit data or interpolated 16bit ?

They are 96dpi and 48bit.

But where is the actual data from ? What is the source ? Is this a raw photo, some artwork etc... ? Where is it from ?

They are extracted frames from a video.

[poisondeathray]

So there are no pdf files that can losslessly hold 48 (or 16) bit images and extract them while having the same quality?

I haven't found any

Do 48bit images have higher quality than 24bit ones?

Not if the original data was 24bit

They are extracted frames from a video.

What type of video ? 8bit420 YUV ?

Then 16bit per channel RGB is technically lossy too



What is the usage case ? Why are you using PDF? Why specify the DPI ?

[Mr. Fanservice]

So there are no pdf files that can losslessly hold 48 (or 16) bit images and extract them while having the same quality?

I haven't found any

Do 48bit images have higher quality than 24bit ones?

Not if the original data was 24bit

They are extracted frames from a video.

What type of video ? 8bit420 YUV ?

Then 16bit per channel RGB is technically lossy too



What is the usage case ? Why are you using PDF? Why specify the DPI ?

It's 10bit420 YUV, actually. So a 24bit (or 8bit, since 8 x 3 is 24) image has higher quality, then? Can ImageMagick and/or Acrobat losslessly make 8 (or 24) bit pdf files out of png files without losing any quality?

[poisondeathray]

It's 10bit420 YUV, actually.

Probably some lossy 10bit420 anime re-encode of a 8bt420 BD , right ?

Technically 8 or 16 bit RGB is lossy for anything YUV, because you can never get back the original YUV values from 8 or 16 bit RGB . Some values are clipped and cannot be represented in integer RGB color model

Most people don't worry it, because most people are viewing on an 8bit RGB display - you're not going to see the differnce -
The YUV video is converted to RGB for display. When you view something on a TV or monitor, it is an RGB representation of that YUV data


(You might worry about it if this was an intermediate step)

So a 24bit (or 8bit, since 8 x 3 is 24) image has higher quality, then?

Than what ? Technically 8bit or 16bit RGB is going to be lower than the YUV source (see above) , but you won't "see" the quailty difference, because most people are viewing on an 8bit RGB display anyways . The stuff you should be worried about is lossy compression - those are quality problems people can SEE

Can ImageMagick and/or Acrobat losslessly make 8 (or 24) bit pdf files out of png files without losing any quality?

8bit per channel RGB PNG as an input should be lossless for that PNG input. But not for the YUV video.

But why do you want PDF in the first place ?

[Mr. Fanservice]

It's 10bit420 YUV, actually.

Probably some lossy 10bit420 anime re-encode of a 8bt420 BD , right ?

Technically 8 or 16 bit RGB is lossy for anything YUV, because you can never get back the original YUV values from 8 or 16 bit RGB . Some values are clipped and cannot be represented in integer RGB color model

Most people don't worry it, because most people are viewing on an 8bit RGB display - you're not going to see the differnce -
The YUV video is converted to RGB for display. When you view something on a TV or monitor, it is an RGB representation of that YUV data


(You might worry about it if this was an intermediate step)

So a 24bit (or 8bit, since 8 x 3 is 24) image has higher quality, then?

Than what ? Technically 8bit or 16bit RGB is going to be lower than the YUV source (see above) , but you won't "see" the quailty difference, because most people are viewing on an 8bit RGB display anyways . The stuff you should be worried about is lossy compression - those are quality problems people can SEE

Can ImageMagick and/or Acrobat losslessly make 8 (or 24) bit pdf files out of png files without losing any quality?

8bit per channel RGB PNG as an input should be lossless for that PNG input. But not for the YUV video.

But why do you want PDF in the first place ?

Because I found out that pdf offers lossless compression for images at a smaller size. So both of them can make lossless files for 8bit images?

[poisondeathray]

But why do you want PDF in the first place ?

Because I found out that pdf offers lossless compression for images at a smaller size. So both of them can make lossless files for 8bit images?

That was when you thought imagemagick was making 16bit PDF compared to 16bit PNG, when in fact it was 8bit PDF compared to 16bit PNG

PDF shouldn't be smaller, it should be larger for 8bit RGB

jpeg-xl would be a good choice for small lossless image filesizes

For true lossless for YUV video, AVIF supports YUV images and has high compression

[Mr. Fanservice]

But why do you want PDF in the first place ?

Because I found out that pdf offers lossless compression for images at a smaller size. So both of them can make lossless files for 8bit images?

That was when you thought imagemagick was making 16bit PDF compared to 16bit PNG, when in fact it was 8bit PDF compared to 16bit PNG

PDF shouldn't be smaller, it should be larger for 8bit RGB

jpeg-xl would be a good choice for small lossless image filesizes

For true lossless for YUV video, AVIF supports YUV images and has high compression

But jpeg-xl doesn't support YUV videos, right? What else supports YUV? What animated file formats support YUV (gifs, apngs, or something else)?

[poisondeathray]

But jpeg-xl doesn't support YUV videos, right? What else supports YUV?

No YUV support for jpeg-xl , but you that didn't worry you earlier with PNG's

AVIF, HEIC/HEIF supports YUV

What animated file formats support YUV (gifs, apngs, or something else)?

AVIF, WEBP (but webp YUV mode is lossy only; lossless mode is RGB(A) only)

GIF has 256 colors, very lossy

APNG is RGB only



Why do you need an image format ? You get better compression with video formats, because of temporal compression. If you want smaller sizes , use video.

[Mr. Fanservice]

But jpeg-xl doesn't support YUV videos, right? What else supports YUV?

No YUV support for jpeg-xl , but you that didn't worry you earlier with PNG's

AVIF, HEIC/HEIF supports YUV

What animated file formats support YUV (gifs, apngs, or something else)?

AVIF, WEBP (but webp YUV mode is lossy only; lossless mode is RGB(A) only)

GIF has 256 colors, very lossy

APNG is RGB only



Why do you need an image format ? You get better compression with video formats, because of temporal compression. If you want smaller sizes , use video.

How do I make image sequences of lossless AVIF and/or HEIC/HEIF files, as well as make lossless animated AVIF files? Which format is smaller, AVIF or HEIC/HEIF?

[poisondeathray]

How do I make image sequences of lossless AVIF and/or HEIC/HEIF files, as well as make lossless animated AVIF files? Which format is smaller, AVIF or HEIC/HEIF?

Again why not video? I can understand single image - but if the usage case is image sequence, why not video instead - the filesize will be smaller

What is the intended usage case ? Do you care about compatibility ?

And you should start a new thread as AVIF or HEIF have nothing to do with PDF .

[Mr. Fanservice]

How do I make image sequences of lossless AVIF and/or HEIC/HEIF files, as well as make lossless animated AVIF files? Which format is smaller, AVIF or HEIC/HEIF?

Again why not video? I can understand single image - but if the usage case is image sequence, why not video instead - the filesize will be smaller

What is the intended usage case ? Do you care about compatibility ?

And you should start a new thread as AVIF or HEIF have nothing to do with PDF .

All right, I'm just trying to save space, okay? Now, back to pdfs, how do I losslessly compress 8bit images into pdf files without losing any quality? Can ImageMagick and/or Acrobat do it?

[poisondeathray]

How do I make image sequences of lossless AVIF and/or HEIC/HEIF files, as well as make lossless animated AVIF files? Which format is smaller, AVIF or HEIC/HEIF?

Again why not video? I can understand single image - but if the usage case is image sequence, why not video instead - the filesize will be smaller

What is the intended usage case ? Do you care about compatibility ?

And you should start a new thread as AVIF or HEIF have nothing to do with PDF .

All right, I'm just trying to save space, okay? Now, back to pdfs, how do I losslessly compress 8bit images into pdf files without losing any quality? Can ImageMagick and/or Acrobat do it?

OK use video - problem solved!!!

On average, temporal compression using the same pixel format and comparable compression method you would have used for still image will save about 10-40%.



8bit RGB PNG to PDF in acrobat => PDF back to 8bit RGB PNG in acrobat is lossless if you setup the Convert To PDF options as lossless JPEG2000. Defaults are jpeg medium quality

For 8bit RGB - compared to even highest PNG compression , JPEG2000 lossless used in PDF will generally be better in terms of compression ratio, because it's newer. And JPEG-XL (but not available in PDF, or at least not yet) even better than JPEG2000, because it's even newer

[Mr. Fanservice]

How do I make image sequences of lossless AVIF and/or HEIC/HEIF files, as well as make lossless animated AVIF files? Which format is smaller, AVIF or HEIC/HEIF?

Again why not video? I can understand single image - but if the usage case is image sequence, why not video instead - the filesize will be smaller

What is the intended usage case ? Do you care about compatibility ?

And you should start a new thread as AVIF or HEIF have nothing to do with PDF .

All right, I'm just trying to save space, okay? Now, back to pdfs, how do I losslessly compress 8bit images into pdf files without losing any quality? Can ImageMagick and/or Acrobat do it?

OK use video - problem solved!!!

On average, temporal compression using the same pixel format and comparable compression method you would have used for still image will save about 10-40%.



8bit RGB PNG to PDF in acrobat => PDF back to 8bit RGB PNG in acrobat is lossless if you setup the Convert To PDF options as lossless JPEG2000. Defaults are jpeg medium quality

For 8bit RGB - compared to even highest PNG compression , JPEG2000 lossless used in PDF will generally be better in terms of compression ratio, because it's newer. And JPEG-XL (but not available in PDF, or at least not yet) even better than JPEG2000, because it's even newer

So use JPEG2000 because it's smaller and the results will always be lossless in Acrobat, even if I extract the images from the pdf as png files? Still how do I make sure I get 96dpi (like my input images) from my pdf file, and extract them as 8bit using other tools?

[poisondeathray]

So use JPEG2000 because it's smaller and the results will always be lossless in Acrobat, even if I extract the images from the pdf as png files?

JPEG2000 supports lossy too - you need to choose the lossless option explicitly .

Still how do I make sure I get 96dpi (like my input images) from my pdf file, and extract them as 8bit using other tools?

Not sure about DPI - Why do you need DPI ? DPI is only used for print . It doesn't matter for for computer, video, web. It doesn't change quality or do anything except when printing. You can probably set it when you print

Acrobat can save as PNG. And I verified the steps in the post above was lossless

[poisondeathray]

PDF shouldn't be smaller, it should be larger for 8bit RGB

8bit RGB 1920x1080 anime source "00214.png" from this thread
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/413078-VirtualDub2-Lossless-jpgs


1920x1080 8bitRGB anime png
2,211,480 bytes

PNGCrush
2,088,341 bytes

PNGGauntlet
2,019,688 bytes

Acrobat PDF (jpeg2000 lossless)
1,709,341 bytes

Adobe jpeg2000 lossless
1,677,374 bytes

Webp lossless
1,616,644 bytes

JPEG-XL lossless effort7
1,325,014 bytes

JPEG-XL lossless effort9
1,292,448 bytes


So as you can see PDF has zero (actually negative) benefit over the same jpeg2000 if you're trying to save space - It's because the PDF container adds overhead