I am seriously considering a BrightEye 75

[jagabo]

I see uncompressed (or losslessly compressed) PAL YUV 4:2:2 caps often here with the same (or similar) problem. Two light lines, two dark lines, repeating. So it's not just the BE75.

Could it be related to Hanover Bars ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanover_bars

Not directly. Hanover bars appear in the chroma, not the luma.

[Marshalleq]

I'm not saying PC is designed better than Mac, All what I'm saying is that around the time when companies where transitioning from analog to digital and capture devices and conversion devices were being used PC was the go to system for most if not all businesses, Mac was a nerd system yes but from a business standpoint not that much, it was built around 640x480 which is a computer resolution, most capture cards back then did not adhere to the rec.601 resolution 720x486 and I believe this is still true for consumer capture devices/drivers. I don't own a Mac, never did and never will but based on the forums feedback it was and still is a pain for a lot of folks for this task as I previously mentioned.

I can dig up some threads from as early as 2000 of users reporting problems with Mac but that's not the subject of this thread. Lordsmurf is one of the very few who were around that era and he can tell you some of those horror stories.

Yes, if we're talking a Mac of that era, I suspect that software availability was an issue. 23 years later they're a different beast entirely.

[Marshalleq]

[QUOTE=Sharc;2709632]

There's a hum you say in the luma channel. Dellsam34 says it may be the blackmagic device - which would be awesome as that's a whole lot easier for me to replace. I will obviously do some googling this morning, however I would appreciate any conjecture about what the cause could be. Presently I don't really understand what would cause diagonal hum bars that repeat every 4 scan lines in a luma channel, it feels like an analog problem to me, rather than a digital one which is worrying as I'm likely back to the BE75 then.

Edit:
Also, check the cabling. Are the cables and signal wires properly screened? The luma seems to be slightly modulated by residual chroma (or something else). Even perfect Y/C separation may be impaired by Y/C wire crosstalk:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/411872-SCART-to-S-Video-adapter-strange-problems#post2708738

Hmm, this is possible - though that depends on your thoughts on how I isolated this. My test to isolate this was different. Since I am unable to purchase an S-VIDEO to Y/C cable and made my own and didn't have a spare, instead I shifted the unit into composite mode and used an off the shelf composite cable. The issue was still present then. This to me meant I both isolated the cable I made and also the S-Video style connection. But open to feedback on that. I don't mind making another S-Video - Y/C cable, I just need a new soldering iron first.

[Marshalleq]

I see uncompressed (or losslessly compressed) PAL YUV 4:2:2 caps often here with the same (or similar) problem. Two light lines, two dark lines, repeating. So it's not just the BE75.

Oh really - do you recall if anyone fixed them with any particular thing?

[Sharc]

I don't mind making another S-Video - Y/C cable, I just need a new soldering iron first.

Probably not worth the pain. Having used the Composite as you wrote explains the dotcrawl which is visible in your lossless .mov, but not the mysterious horizontal 2 lines bright - 2 lines dark pattern. Anyway it's recommended to use S-video Y/C rather than Composite.

[Marshalleq]

I don't mind making another S-Video - Y/C cable, I just need a new soldering iron first.

Probably not worth the pain. Having used the Composite as you wrote explains the dotcrawl which is visible in your lossless .mov, but not the mysterious horizontal 2 lines bright - 2 lines dark pattern. Anyway it's recommended to use S-video Y/C rather than Composite.

I didn't use composite for the lossless mov as far as I recall - but it's possible I left the composite setting on, though unlikely.

[Sharc]

I see uncompressed (or losslessly compressed) PAL YUV 4:2:2 caps often here with the same (or similar) problem. Two light lines, two dark lines, repeating. So it's not just the BE75.

Oh really - do you recall if anyone fixed them with any particular thing?

On your lossless .mov capture try something like

separatefields()
santiag()
AssumeFieldbased()
weave()

[Marshalleq]

I see uncompressed (or losslessly compressed) PAL YUV 4:2:2 caps often here with the same (or similar) problem. Two light lines, two dark lines, repeating. So it's not just the BE75.

Oh really - do you recall if anyone fixed them with any particular thing?

On your lossless .mov capture try something like

separatefields()
santiag()
AssumeFieldbased()
weave()

I assume that's code that is usually used on the Windows tools - I'm using BlackMagic Media Express - which apparently just takes out the raw signal and encodes it. But I will have a play and see if there are any more options. Thanks.

[jagabo]

Yes, that was done with AviSynth which is Windows only. But the same can be done with VapourSynth which is multiplatform. Unfortunately, it blurs horizontal edges quite a lot and creates alias of its own.

[Sharc]

Script of post#127 corrected (but still slightly blurring)

converttoYV16(interlaced=true)
assumeTFF()
separatefields()
vinverse()
weave()

[dellsam34]

He needs to fix the issue not patch it, If it was tape related and one tape behaved badly or a capture that a tape no longer exists, sure why not. But doing this for every capture is not the right way.

[jagabo]

Of course it's better to fix the problem at the source. If you can't, here's a variation of Sharc's vinverse() method with a mask that limits the blurring to "combed" areas:

##################################################

function CombMask(clip v, int "threshold")
{
    threshold = default(threshold, 5)

    Subtract(v, v.blur(0.0, 1.0).Sharpen(0.0, 0.6))
    GeneralConvolution(0, "
        0  8  8  8  0
       -0 -8 -8 -8 -0 
        0  8  8  8  0
       -0 -8 -8 -8 -0
        0  8  8  8  0", chroma=false, alpha=false)
    mt_lut("x 125 - abs")
    mt_binarize(threshold) # threshold
}

##################################################

LWLibavVideoSource("C:\Users\John\Desktop\Example 1.mov", cache=false, prefer_hw=2) 
AssumeTFF()
ConvertToYV16(interlaced=true)
src = last

SeparateFields()
cmask = CombMask(1).mt_inpand().mt_inpand().Blur(1.5)
Overlay(last, vinverse(), mask=cmask)
Weave()
StackHorizontal(src.QTGMC(), last.QTGMC())

source+QTGMC on the left, cleaned+QTGMC() on the right:

[Sharc]

Wow. Preserves the sharpness and details of the patterns on the guy's shirt nicely

[Bogilein]

Actually, you are in a lucky position and can compare two different capture ways.
Unfortunately, you haven't done that yet.

Then the experts here could do some analysis.

The playback device also plays a big role. This is why users have several devices to choose from.
Which JVC do you use (HR-9600, 9700,9850....)?

I would like to see the same recordings once with the ADVC100 & once via SDI with the Brighteye 75.

Namely the following:

VCR(TBC off)-ADVC100-Firewire transfer to computer as DV-Avi
VCR(TBC on)-ADVC100-Firewire transfer to computer as DV-Avi
VCR(TBC off)-Brighteye75-SDI capture card as uncompressed 8bit YUV-Avi
VCR(TBC on)-Brighteye75-SDI capture card as uncompressed 8bit YUV-Avi
VCR(TBC off)-optimized settings brightness, contrast...with Brighteye75-SDI capture card as uncompressed 8bit YUV-Avi
VCR(TBC on)-optimized settings brightness, contrast...with Brighteye75-SDI capture card as uncompressed 8bit YUV-Avi
VCR(TBC off)-ADVC100(output via S-Video)-Brighteye75-SDI capture card as uncompressed 8bit YUV-Avi
VCR(TBC on)-ADVC100(output via S-Video)-Brighteye75-SDI capture card as uncompressed 8bit YUV-Avi
VCR(TBC off)-Brighteye75-SDI capture card as uncompressed 10bit YUV avi (to see if captures with 10bit gives an advantage over captures with 8bit)
VCR(TBC on)-Brighteye75-SDI capture card as uncompressed 10bit YUV-Avi (to see if captures with 10bit gives an advantage over captures with 8bit)

Make captures from the SDI source with Blackmagic Media Express

[Marshalleq]

Actually, you are in a lucky position and can compare two different capture ways.
Unfortunately, you haven't done that yet.

The playback device also plays a big role. This is why users have several devices to choose from.
Which JVC do you use (HR-9600, 9700,9850....)?

I would like to see the same recordings once with the ADVC100 & once via SDI with the Brighteye 75.

Yes I am and I have said before I intend to do so, but this is once everything is up and running correctly.

The reason why I haven't bothered with the Canopus just now is it is enough with just the Ultrastudio to talk about this fault and to use the Canopus I will just get a couple of people complaining about my using OBS. I've had a bit of a look and haven't found a decent replacement yet - I suspect the solution will be rooted in some open source linux software that runs in the command line on Mac - I don't expect anyone to solve it for me but I know until I do, I will get the complaint none the less - only accompanied by such unhelpful advice as to switch my OS to Windows which is getting tiresome. Assuming we can fix the source of the BE75 problem then I won't need to use it. Maybe then, I'll go the extra distance and get a Firewire card in Windows which allows me to use an alternate capturing software.

In another thread, or perhaps external to this site I will eventually do this.

My player is a JVC S-9850. I doubt I'd do all the tests you mention - not the brightness ones anyway. And I don't really see the point of using the ADVC-100 for firewire transfers when you can plug the camera straight into the computers firewire port - so those first two would probably come out as well. Also, not sure what is the point of running the ADVC-100/110 into the BE75. The BE75 has native S-VIDEO with Digital out so adding a Canopus to that is just reducing the colour and probably adding noise. And the ADVC-100 also has a native S-Video with a digital out - so that device is what that device is. Perhaps I'm missing something.

I have a third capture device also, a Magewell and a fourth capture device which I've given to a friend because it requires an older motherboard with a PCI slot in it. He has that - so for a short test that could be achieved eventually. I also have a DVK-100 with all new capacitors in it. So there's a bit to test here. I have a Canopus 100 and a 110 - the 100 has an extra undocumented connector in the back that looks like and RGB style analogue connector - others say it isn't that, but I see little point for it to exist only to duplicate the other port alongside it - so that's kind of interesting too.

[Marshalleq]

So I've been down to the shop today and plugged into the Swit Directors Monitor. The purpose of this test was to isolate the BE75 taking out the Ultrastudio SDI - Thunderbolt because I don't have another SDI device. The issue also appears in that monitor, which seems to confirm that the cause is not in the Ultrastudio device, not the capture software and obviously not the thunderbolt connection either. So this leave the BE75 and the S-Video cables. The S-Video cables had already been isolated because I used a component connection into the BE75 which also exhibited the same issue. The VCR is not an issue as it works in another setup. This leave the BE75. So it would appear there is something faulty in the BE75. Oh what fun this is going to be.

I do have some photographs I took of this whole escapade if anyone is interested, but they are just shots from my phone onto the monitor - which aren't great quality - nevertheless I have attached one as evidence and you can see the issue if you click to zoom - different frame though. Also, I have emailed this to Ensemble Designs. Let's see what they come back with. To me it's either a faulty device, or they should be able to replicate it. Or, there's something I'm doing wrong that I haven't been able to figure out yet.


[Attachment 74540 - Click to enlarge]

[Sharc]

Sorry if this has been discussed before, but are you sure that these horizontal dark/bright stripes are not baked into the tape? Do you see it with other tapes as well, or better even did you try with other tapes which were shot with a different camera?
Also, is your source an original tape or a dupe?

I remember now that I have seen this line pattern before with PAL VHS tapes (possibly dupes, I don't remember) which I got from a friend for digitizing. Unfortunately I don't remember the camera model. I had to fix it in post with filtering, like vinverse() for example (post#130, or better with jagabo's improved variant of post#132), or similar, at the expense of little loss of sharpness/details.
I can't help with Mac, unfortunately.
So it's possibly not a flaw of the BE75.

[Marshalleq]

It's a good suggestion to try some tapes from a different camera. I will do that. Personally I doubt it will be much difference because the Canopus did not exhibit this issue on any tape - It's truly horrible to watch. Oh and yes I did try a few different tapes, but not many. I might try one of some pre-recorded TV from the 90's rather than something in the 80's that might be a good reference.

[dellsam34]

What other workflow you tested in interlaced mode, You mentioned a DV workflow but you said it was de-interlaced, As Sharc mentioned above compare it against another workflow in the same conditions or use another tape as it could be baked in the tape and de-interlacing removes it.

[Marshalleq]

Yep, thanks - that has been niggling at me too - not that I think it won't show it, but just to rule it completely out. I don't like unanswered questions and missing tests. Will do.

[Sharc]

I just revisited some of the captures of my friend's tapes. They were shot with the same camera but using different workflows/digitizers for capturing. They all show these stripes, so this indicates that the problem is with the camera and pretty much rules the capture device out as the culprit.
As I said, I don't know the camera model, and the tapes were possibly not originals but duplicates.

[Marshalleq]

I think you are comparing this issue with interlacing, which is not the same. At least I’ve never seen interlacing that looked like this before.

[Sharc]

No, I am aware of the difference between the regular interlacing combes (when watching as progressive frames and looking worse/destructive when vertically rescaling without prior deinterlacing) and these faint additional horizontal line patterns which you are getting.
Anyway, try with different tapes shot with different camera, if available. Also, try with a different VHS tape player, if available.
I am just somewhat hesitant in believing it's a BE75 issue .......

[dellsam34]

Why tapes? Feed the VCR a clean digital video from a file or a disc and judge the result, Testing with one tape from the 80's is like taking grandpa to check out an iPhone 15 for you, I see here a pattern of panic rather than rational testing, no process of elimination, just rushed assumptions.

[Marshalleq]

dellsam34 - there you go again saying condescending and offensive things, making broad statements with no justification like only one tape and no rational testing, no process of elimination just rushed assumptions. Have you been reading this thread at all - because you're like a goldfish with a short memory. Ironically this behaviour describes you perfectly, you're the one jumping in and making those assumptions and rushing in with broad statements etc because you haven't been reading the thread or perhaps forgetting it. Even if you were right you wouldn't say these things like this. This morning I thought to myself that recently you were being reasonable again and I could write something and get a reasonable response, but now it seems we're just back to you with a bone to pick about who knows what vs the world. You're clearly an intelligent human, I have no idea why you keep doing this but it isn't befitting for this site and makes you look bad.

Getting back on Topic Sheesh
Anyway, Ensemble Designs have been able to replicate the issue and have come back with the following statement:

I ran some tests here with different source material. I do see the same types of issues with poorer sources. I think the BE75 might not be the correct solution for what you're trying to do with the results you're looking for. If you send me the serial number I can create an RMA for a refund, assuming this is a newer purchase?

BTW, like I literally said right above your comment, I did try this on a few different tapes just not many because all the tapes exhibited the same issue and those same tapes did not exhibit it before. If the BE75 doesn't handle them just because they were made in the 80's (seems unlikely to me), then Ensemble designs would be right - this would not be the device for me, nor for anyone else. But it seems like it has always worked well for dellsam34 so either he's not telling us something or something has changed. I'm still suspicious that it's probably a newer hardware version and definitely newer firmware. That's the one difference I know to be true that could explain it. I've seen this a few times and in fact with some of the devices LordSmurf recommends ie. the green and black coloured ones this plays out doesn't it.

While I'm happy to get a response with a refund from Ensemble designs, I'm not really happy with Ensemble Designs response though because it's more like Ensemble Designs don't want to try to fix the issue and fault find it. I'm going to ask them to run the same test on an older unit and see if it persists first because if I have to send this back, this will take me back to square one with no decent capture scenario again.

What a pain! I doubt anyone from here will ever buy one of these devices again after reading this thread, unless I can get a happy ending somehow.

[Marshalleq]

Actually if no resolution happens this would solve my capture problem. And I could put whatever I like before it - like back to the Datavideo box or whatever. Awesome.

[Bwaak]

Actually if no resolution happens this would solve my capture problem. And I could put whatever I like before it - like back to the Datavideo box or whatever. Awesome.

I thought the whole point of dellsam34 using BE75 was because BM boxes are notoriously demanding (that is, flaky) to the quality of the signal, in particular, to timing. Not to mention that these boxes do not a TBC of their own.

[Marshalleq]

I've heard that - without any evidence of course though. I do note that the BM analog converter mentions VHS in the spec. Also we can put a DVK-100 before it which I assume would help with that. Don't know - haven't really researched it. But it could be an option and it doesn't cost much to try, there's local stock and I may be able to make a deal to test it first. Also there are a few positive comments here from people that are doing it. Might be some negatives too, but I haven't seen any for VHS yet. https://www.amazon.com/Blackmagic-Design-Mini-Converter-Analog/product-reviews/B005VNE85Y

[lollo]

I've heard that - without any evidence of course though.

Once more you did not check the forum. Just one example: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/410062-Which-capture-of-my-old-VHS-looks-the-best

Back to your problems, like dellsam34 and Sharc and myself have said many times, I still have to see from you a comparison between an interlaced lossless capture from the BE75 and another device, for example your ADVC-110. In post #72 you wrote the left capture has been deinterlaced. I may have been missed something, but so far we have no evidence that the BE75 is faulty.

[Bwaak]

Sure, if you can try and return. But it is funny that LS, dellsam34 as well as TechTVusa agree on this. Although this may be a different box, TechTVusa used the Intensity Pro; IDK how it is different inside compared to the Mini Converter.