I am seriously considering a BrightEye 75

[Sharc]

Neither is exciting, left is worse. Do we compare apples with apples at all? Deinterlaced vs interlaced (?). Which deinterlacer .....
As has been said lossless interlaced captures would be more conclusive.

Edit:
And if - as you wrote - the color does not move in line (synchronously) with the luma in motion scenes, there is a good chance that at some step along the processing chain interlaced footage is not processed correctly.

[Marshalleq]

What, you're not excited by balloons? Where's your lust for life?!

I'm actually grateful you pointed out the colour and the highlights, because I was too busy with all the jagged edges on the right - which to me are far worse than the colour issues - and that's saying something cause I hate colour issues and your colour smearing example is the kind of difference I was expecting going from 4:2:0 to 4:2:2 due to low resolution of VHS and well the rest you already know I guess.

But if someone put a video on for me, I'd rather watch the left one.

I will provide some better captures when I get to spend some time on it. Nevertheless the captures I've provided do show the issue quite fine. It's exactly as shown.

[dellsam34]

Perhaps I shall try downgrade that software and see if the option becomes enabled. Do you know what the option even does? In the manual it just says to turn it on if setup is present on the analog input. I don't know what that means all I can guess is that setup is 'my setup' or perhaps it's some special video industry term.

Toggling it on and off raises the brightness a little bit, Me too don't know what its purpose but for dark tapes I use it, for all other tapes I leave it off.

[Sharc]

Perhaps I shall try downgrade that software and see if the option becomes enabled. Do you know what the option even does? In the manual it just says to turn it on if setup is present on the analog input. I don't know what that means all I can guess is that setup is 'my setup' or perhaps it's some special video industry term.

Toggling it on and off raises the brightness a little bit, Me too don't know what its purpose but for dark tapes I use it, for all other tapes I leave it off.

Best guess: It is for enabling/disabling the luma setup (pedestal). The actual value is then adjusted with the IRE setup slider in the ProcAmp menu.

From the Manual:
Input menu:
• Analog Setup – set to On if setup is present on the analog input, or Off if no setup is present

Proc Menu
• Pedestal – adjust the pedestal level of the signal +/- 5 IRE

Edit:
In 480i composite NTSC video in North America, reference black is offset above blanking by 7.5%.
For 576i PAL it is zero, same as NTSC in Japan.

See also
http://www.glennchan.info/articles/technical/setup/75IREsetup.html

Bottom line: Don't worry too much. Just make sure that the luma (Y') fluctuates within the 16 ....235 range (for 8bit video).

[jagabo]

North American analog NTSC video uses 7.5 IRE setup. Japanese NTSC doesn't use setup. When digitizing you need to know whether black is at IRE 0 or IRE 7.5 to get correct digital black levels.

[Sharc]

Yes. See Glenn Chan's article and his note about DV videocams. Probably the reason why we see so many DV videos with elevated blacks and superwhites.

[Marshalleq]

I love waking up to all these replies, thankyou for helping. I think it must be detecting that my pal image is exempt then which if I recall is true for IRE in my country. I’ve had a reply from ensemble designs over night. Obviously they’re asking if there’s any way I can directly view the image. I’m guessing they mean with a pro monitor that takes an SDI connection as I don’t think the device has any other outputs but I’ll double check. I don’t really see the difference between that and an SDI to thunderbolt converter really. It I guess there’s a subtle difference. They did mention firmware 2.0.0 is that latest and there’s no point in downgrading it which makes me worry as that’s not a great reply.

[dellsam34]

Can you post a picture of the SDI interface you're using? It should have a HDMI out for monitoring, which is what I use for monitoring, it should be set to 480i and it should be close enough to what's been captured via SDI out, Alternatively it should have a mirrored second SDI port to hookup a SDI monitor, But such monitors are expensive.
You still haven't produced a lossless sample so we don't really nor Ensemble Designs know what the issue is.

[Marshalleq]

I really wasn't going to bother with a lossless sample until I had time on the weekend. Would capturing a snap via the BlackMagic Media Express be considered a lossless sample, or would it be a short video clip be considered a lossless sample. My issue was that I need to do this for both before and after, but actually I now realise I don't really, just the after would be enough. What is it that the lossless sample will provide you? Are you talking metadata here because the clip I posted still shows the issue quite fine as in it's exactly what I'm seeing when I play the clip or view the capture window.

Below is the SDI converter I have, purchased brand new 2 days ago. Still a current product. I don't set it to 480i cause I'm in Pal land but I get what you mean. It actually only has an HDMI in, for an out Blackmagic produce the Ultrastudio monitor for this purpose. Then of course we're getting into more money for the devices that do multiple things - which I don't really need -except to test things like this. They look quite nice though.

https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/ultrastudio/techspecs/W-DLUS-12

[dellsam34]

A lossless sample is a an interlaced AVI PAL 720x576 YUV2 the way it comes out the BE75 SDI port, If you are not sure post the output option you see in MediaExpress and we'll help you choose the right one. Unless I missed it, I didn't see any clip posted, Only a processed screenshot which doesn't tell anything.

[Marshalleq]

OK that sounds easy. I'm pretty busy so haven't checked it really - but this is straight out of media express.

[dellsam34]

That's nowhere near lossless, MPEG-4 Quicktime? Just switch to PC and capture lossless AVI and be done with it. No more problems.

[Marshalleq]

Avi and mov is just a container has nothing to do with lossless or not. But I do have to stay within the site file restrictions. I can have a look and check codec because I forgot about that but I seriously don’t understand what good that will do for analysing the file. You have the video and the metadata. Unless mov is missing some metadata or something. I keep asking this question and don’t get an answer so I can only assume I’m right.

[jagabo]

That's nowhere near lossless, MPEG-4 Quicktime?

The codec id is 2vuy. Also known as UYVY.

https://fourcc.org/2vuy/
https://www.loc.gov/preservation/digital/formats/fdd/fdd000370.shtml

So uncompressed YUV 4:2:2, lossless.

The horizontal bars in the cyan skirt (and other parts of the frame) are in the luma channel, not the chroma.

Y, U and V:

[Attachment 74437 - Click to enlarge]

Those appear to be diagonal hum bars that repeat every 4 scan lines.

[Attachment 74438 - Click to enlarge]

GreyScale()
SeparateRows(4)
HistogramOnBottom()
AssumeFPS(10)
Trim(400, 403)

This is why one should post video samples, not highly processed screen caps.

[Bwaak]

This is great analysis. There should be a sticky with small scripts to visualize different aspects of video.

[dellsam34]

I have to admit I did not look at the MPEG-4 size so I assumed it was h.264. Good Analysis Jagabo, I'm starting to think it's the BM device making those bars, Could be wrong device setting, But if I was the OP I'll ditch MAC and work in PC environment, but that's me.

[Marshalleq]

OK thanks for the analysis. So I think this means it's not the chroma bug - which was only a guess anyway. The symptom does look similar.

There's a hum you say in the luma channel. Dellsam34 says it may be the blackmagic device - which would be awesome as that's a whole lot easier for me to replace. I will obviously do some googling this morning, however I would appreciate any conjecture about what the cause could be. Presently I don't really understand what would cause diagonal hum bars that repeat every 4 scan lines in a luma channel, it feels like an analog problem to me, rather than a digital one which is worrying as I'm likely back to the BE75 then.

I'm not 100% against windows but I will push Mac til the final moment because it's my preference. Windows will open a whole world of pain - not because I don't know how to drive it (I am Microsoft Certified for Desktop among other things so like I said previously - I have an above average understanding with that) - but just because it's a non permanent solution for me. I want something I can pack up and take overseas with me when I leave. I don't and won't have a windows laptop anymore and if you've seen the size of my desktop well this is the case: https://lian-li.com/product/pc-o11d-rog/ you can see it's not very portable.

Also, I believe there's plenty of media companies using Mac for video, there's a lot of pedigree there.

But mostly, I'm just keen to hear anyone's thoughts on where to start to fault find this. I'm thinking of going to the shop where I got the BM device and asking if I can set up a test unit with a few different SDI output devices - assuming they're open and on the floor.

Thanks.

[Marshalleq]

I think the major thing I'm grateful to hear is just confirming the issue. It sounds funny, but as I was when I first started capturing VHS - the supplier is saying that the signal looks OK to them, because it's old analogue tape and I must remember it's analogue etc etc. That is a dangerous position as it essentially becomes an argument about whether there is anything wrong at all which is totally unhelpful to resolving the problem - especially if there's a fault in the BE75. That device is imported at quite an expense and is not easy to just get another one. I'm just glad I got it through a local reseller that's been in business for many decades.

[jagabo]

There's a hum you say in the luma channel. Dellsam34 says it may be the blackmagic device - which would be awesome as that's a whole lot easier for me to replace. I will obviously do some googling this morning, however I would appreciate any conjecture about what the cause could be. Presently I don't really understand what would cause diagonal hum bars that repeat every 4 scan lines in a luma channel, it feels like an analog problem to me, rather than a digital one which is worrying as I'm likely back to the BE75 then.

Given that it's every four lines of the interlaced frame, it means it's every two lines of each field. And the fact that it's PAL (chroma Phase Alternating Line) video, and the amplitude of the luma variation is most visible in bright, highly saturated, areas hints that it has something to do with the chroma carrier. The filter that should be removing the chroma carrier from the luma isn't working quite right.

[Marshalleq]

There's a hum you say in the luma channel. Dellsam34 says it may be the blackmagic device - which would be awesome as that's a whole lot easier for me to replace. I will obviously do some googling this morning, however I would appreciate any conjecture about what the cause could be. Presently I don't really understand what would cause diagonal hum bars that repeat every 4 scan lines in a luma channel, it feels like an analog problem to me, rather than a digital one which is worrying as I'm likely back to the BE75 then.

Given that it's every four lines of the interlaced frame, it means it's every two lines of each field. And the fact that it's PAL (chroma Phase Alternating Line) video, and the amplitude of the luma variation is most visible in bright, highly saturated, areas hints that it has something to do with the chroma carrier. The filter that should be removing the chroma carrier from the luma isn't working quite right.

So that happens most likely in the BE75? Are you also possibly saying this wouldn't happen in NTSC or am I way off here? In the back of my mind I am worrying that this is a PAL specific issue - because Dellsam34 doesn't have this issue present in his captures. To me, it's either that or a faulty BE75, or an incompatibility between the BE75 and the Ultrastudio device.

I have been down to my local photo store PhotoGear whom are tirelessly helpful (highly recommended if you're in NZ). I bought the blackmagic device from them and they will reach out to Blackmagic to see if they are able to help in any way. Also, they have agreed I can bring my gear down next week during the quiet hours and plug into a directors monitor - a Swit BM-H245 which lists the required resolution as supported. This should at least isolate the blackmagic device and confirm if the issue is in the BE75. The next thing I've asked about is if they have a capture device that can replace the BE75 (even if it doesn't have TBC / Frame Sync) that we could couple with the ultrastudio, thus confirming if the issue remains or is still present to further confirm likely place of cause.

[dellsam34]

I worked with both NTSC and PAL contents, here is an example of a PAL VHS tape. Why not use a process of elimination tree, Pretty simple, You got an artifact with MAC, next step move to PC, if the problem persists go back to MAC and keep troubleshooting, if not, problem solved, MAC is the culprit.

I did capture video overseas and used a family computer with USB3 and their VCR, You are not going to take the VCR so why do you have to take the computer with you, Though this is a personal matter, I'm just giving my opinion, But the fact is, MAC is a pain in the @ss for this kind of tasks, PC has a wide compatibility and support, Though not like Win 7 but Black Magic stuff is well supported in modern MS Windows.

[Bwaak]

as I was when I first started capturing VHS - the supplier is saying that the signal looks OK to them, because it's old analogue tape and I must remember it's analogue etc etc. That is a dangerous position as it essentially becomes an argument about whether there is anything wrong at all

Here is an old analogue from 1971. Granted, this is likely a 2-inch tape, definitely not VHS. Deinterlacing is not perfect, though.

[Sharc]

There's a hum you say in the luma channel. Dellsam34 says it may be the blackmagic device - which would be awesome as that's a whole lot easier for me to replace. I will obviously do some googling this morning, however I would appreciate any conjecture about what the cause could be. Presently I don't really understand what would cause diagonal hum bars that repeat every 4 scan lines in a luma channel, it feels like an analog problem to me, rather than a digital one which is worrying as I'm likely back to the BE75 then.

Given that it's every four lines of the interlaced frame, it means it's every two lines of each field. And the fact that it's PAL (chroma Phase Alternating Line) video, and the amplitude of the luma variation is most visible in bright, highly saturated, areas hints that it has something to do with the chroma carrier. The filter that should be removing the chroma carrier from the luma isn't working quite right.

@Marshalleq: In the BE75 config menu does switching the CombMode ON and OFF make a difference?

I don't know what this setting actually does: Enabling a comb filter for separating luma/chroma of composite video, or enabling a deinterlacer ...??. I don't have a BE75 so I can't verify its functionality myself.

Edit:
Also, check the cabling. Are the cables and signal wires properly screened? The luma seems to be slightly modulated by residual chroma (or something else). Even perfect Y/C separation may be impaired by Y/C wire crosstalk:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/411872-SCART-to-S-Video-adapter-strange-problems#post2708738

[Marshalleq]

There's a hum you say in the luma channel. Dellsam34 says it may be the blackmagic device - which would be awesome as that's a whole lot easier for me to replace. I will obviously do some googling this morning, however I would appreciate any conjecture about what the cause could be. Presently I don't really understand what would cause diagonal hum bars that repeat every 4 scan lines in a luma channel, it feels like an analog problem to me, rather than a digital one which is worrying as I'm likely back to the BE75 then.

Given that it's every four lines of the interlaced frame, it means it's every two lines of each field. And the fact that it's PAL (chroma Phase Alternating Line) video, and the amplitude of the luma variation is most visible in bright, highly saturated, areas hints that it has something to do with the chroma carrier. The filter that should be removing the chroma carrier from the luma isn't working quite right.

@Marshalleq: In the BE75 config menu does switching the CombMode ON and OFF make a difference?

Thanks for the suggestions, but sadly no, it was one of the first things I tried. That said I'm going to try it again because this issue seems like it would be quite simple like that and I doubt myself that I've done it properly sometimes. I mean, I don't want to say no I tried that and then embarrassingly come back here and say, I obviously didn't because it works now - after all this drama I'm making here! I honestly wouldn't be surprised though if it turned out that they broke something in the newer firmware. It happens quite often, but I can't try it cause' my version is not available online.

[Marshalleq]

Why not use a process of elimination tree, Pretty simple, You got an artifact with MAC, next step move to PC, if the problem persists go back to MAC and keep troubleshooting, if not, problem solved, MAC is the culprit.

I did capture video overseas and used a family computer with USB3 and their VCR, You are not going to take the VCR so why do you have to take the computer with you, Though this is a personal matter, I'm just giving my opinion, But the fact is, MAC is a pain in the @ss for this kind of tasks, PC has a wide compatibility and support, Though not like Win 7 but Black Magic stuff is well supported in modern MS Windows.

Well for one thing I have no capture interface for PC. And yes I would take my VCR, because I paid a bucketload for it. I'm not talking about a holiday - I wouldn't bother for that, I'm talking about a permanent move but one where I will be moving around a bit (We have a house in South America). And yes, I'm already doing a process of elimination - that's what I've been posting about above, why I'm going into the shop next week. The difference I think you are focussed on the idea that it's because I'm on Mac, I'm not focussed on that idea. To me it's possible, but unlikely. And the Blackmagic device I'm using, is Mac supported, under warranty so if it is that, then we will find out if it's fixable or not and keep it, fix it, or return it or indeed swap it for a PC supported one. I've found faults before that have gone all the way back to intel's CPU firmware and fixed in the factory, these things are possible.

So, you gave yours - here's mine. My opinion - it's PC that is a pain in the ass. I used to run PC for a very long time. I have repaired software and hardware in PC's for a few decades now. I also do the same for Mac. I also know linux, I know cloud systems, I know old systems like Novell Netware, Novell Linux and such like. And when I say I know, I have deployed them, designed and architected them, fixed them, sold them and been certified in them. So believe me this is an educated opinion that has come around to make me decide on Mac.

And here's the story of how that came to be: I also used to be very negative about Macs, but at the time, I'd never owned one. I didn't even buy my first one, someone gave me an old one, I thought I should probably know how to fix one and I set about learning how it all worked. After achieving that and using it for some time - I just thought to myself Macs were extremely boring and I just couldn't understand why anyone would buy one. They were overly expensive, underpowered, only had 1 year warranty at that price and seemingly limiting. They did have a very nice screen and nice battery life at the time about 8-10 hours of battery when Windows laptops were struggling to get 2 hours with a new battery (and for the most part still are). So I went back to enjoying my PC, fixing it, doing amazing things and then that's when the penny dropped. I didn't have to fix it. That was the point of the mac! I could rely on getting up in the morning and everything would be good. I could do my design work, my music recording, my photography and all that sort of creative stuff without ever having any issues that required me to fix it. A lot of my time had been going to feed and water windows, partly I enjoyed it - but kicking that out of my life has really enabled me to be more productive. Windows has definitely gotten better in the past years - especially windows 10, but never like mac. But ever since that day the penny dropped I run Mac. If I play a game and it's not on Mac, I use PC.

I've been running Mac primarily now for about a decade and it is far easier to use and lets me focus on the creative things the computer is actually for. And now with Apple silicon it's gone from being not powerful to basically the most powerful computer architecture on the planet. And its battery lasts 20 hours on a single charge. It's portable, it has a beautiful screen that supports P3 Wide colour with a billion colours, HDR and 120Hz refresh rate. It's great for photography and video editing. And after a decade or more, I'm still not needing to fix it.

Mac also has BSD under the hood. That means it runs or can be made to run nearly everything that linux can. Linux I would also say is far more capable for raw processing work for creatives than windows is. I'm not going to say it's better - none of the big three are better over another for everything - they each have their plusses and minuses. I am aware for example that one of the apps often recommended here is only available on Windows. That's fine - I'll find an alternative and if I can't - then I'll use linux, or maybe Windows. Just because there are a lot of people on here that love Windows (which is fine) and don't really look to other options because they don't need to - does not mean I should abandon the OS I already have. This is my position for now, I may change it if events lead me there. This is the state of my open mind.

Also, I doubt the OS has much to do with this specific problem anyway though it is possible there is a driver issue, but that seems pretty remote. The capture device is a Mac supported product, thunderbolt no less, which is basically a PCIe connected device at this point - that is bloody awesome - thunderbolt is amazing. Sadly I don't have a thunderbolt port on my PC due to annoying motherboard and intel Licencing issues on that platform. If I did, yes I would have tried it, just to make everyone feel better, including myself. (I have a thunderbolt card, it just doesn't work in this board). If it turns out that there is an issue with the BM device on MAC then as per above, I'll figure out which way to go and figure out the rest. This however looks to me like a BE75 problem, which is before the OS anyway. If it isn't, I'll try a different mac based SDI device I guess. Or maybe I'll spring for a PCIe card in my PC - or try it on one in the shop to rule it out. In this sense we are in agreement, narrow down the options - I'm just choosing a different pathway.

I probably undersell myself a bit on here, because this whole TBC thing was a surprise and I admit I knew nothing about it - so I quieten up so that I get good advice from people, I try to stay open. I say I don't know video and such like, but I'm not your average user either. I've been through the School of Audio Engineering for example - at a time when digital was just coming in - so I learnt both analogue and digital systems. I actually do understand quite a bit about video, though less about analogue systems. That's been a fun bunch of reading and I'm never going to understand it like the good people here, there's just too many years of experience in an era that we no longer can attend.

So there you have it, that's why I choose mac and thankyou for your suggestion.

[Marshalleq]

as I was when I first started capturing VHS - the supplier is saying that the signal looks OK to them, because it's old analogue tape and I must remember it's analogue etc etc. That is a dangerous position as it essentially becomes an argument about whether there is anything wrong at all

Here is an old analogue from 1971. Granted, this is likely a 2-inch tape, definitely not VHS. Deinterlacing is not perfect, though.

Wow, it's pretty impressive though isn't it!

[Marshalleq]

I worked with both NTSC and PAL contents, here is an example of a PAL VHS tape.

Wow, thank you for this, so that seems to show that PAL isn't the issue or at least that PAL did work on what I assume is an older unit that you have - which was one of my worries (I guess why you posted this - thank you). Ugh, so that means probably Ultrastudio incompatibility or fault, the BE75 has a fault or like you keep saying, the MAC. Sigh. I will see if they have any PC based SDI unit down at the shop that I don't have to buy - just a fault finding thing. I will be testing the BE75 going straight into the Pro monitor so that will be something to. Definitely getting closer to the problem.

Thanks again for your suggestions, it's helpful.

[dellsam34]

I'm not saying PC is designed better than Mac, All what I'm saying is that around the time when companies where transitioning from analog to digital and capture devices and conversion devices were being used PC was the go to system for most if not all businesses, Mac was a nerd system yes but from a business standpoint not that much, it was built around 640x480 which is a computer resolution, most capture cards back then did not adhere to the rec.601 resolution 720x486 and I believe this is still true for consumer capture devices/drivers. I don't own a Mac, never did and never will but based on the forums feedback it was and still is a pain for a lot of folks for this task as I previously mentioned.

I can dig up some threads from as early as 2000 of users reporting problems with Mac but that's not the subject of this thread. Lordsmurf is one of the very few who were around that era and he can tell you some of those horror stories.

[jagabo]

I see uncompressed (or losslessly compressed) PAL YUV 4:2:2 caps often here with the same (or similar) problem. Two light lines, two dark lines, repeating. So it's not just the BE75.

[Sharc]

I see uncompressed (or losslessly compressed) PAL YUV 4:2:2 caps often here with the same (or similar) problem. Two light lines, two dark lines, repeating. So it's not just the BE75.

Could it be related to Hanover Bars ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanover_bars