Passthrough DVD recorder but it is SECAM-L and has S-Video Input/Output

[JadHC]

Hello,

I would like to follow up on the previous thread here:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/409177-VHS-Horizontal-Stabilisation-part-2-Electric-Boogaloo

I have some minor horizontal jitter in my SECAM-L video recordings. My VCR has TBC and it stabilizes 90% of the image, however, there is still some horizontal jitter left. I would like to buy some passthrough DVD recorder that can fix that. Lollo has been extremely helpful and explained the issue to me in detail [thanks again, lollo, youre a lifesaver and a superstar] and suggested DVR-530H. As this is another spend, i just want to make sure that this DVD recorder will work with SECAM tapes so just wanted to ask people if they have experience with it in terms of SECAM-L tapes before I place my order.
In case you suggest other DVD recorders, please, be aware that my JVC HR-S9700MS only has S-Video output (no scart or composite), so S-video input/output is a must, please.

thanks a lot, lollo and others for any guidance. You guys have already saved me lots of time and money with your precious advises.

[themaster1]

Are we talking about retail tapes, Secam B aswell (possibly with macrovision embedded) here ? If not probably worth it (i did my experiment with the hr-s7700 (edited)) if you force the pal output (transcoding) of the vcr the signal will be jitter-corrected with a good dvd recorder (panasonic or sony, i used a sony). Though, I haven't tried with s-video (long story) i see no reason it wouldn't work

[JadHC]

Are we talking about retail tapes, Secam B aswell (possibly with macrovision embedded) here ? If not probably worth it (i did my experiment with the hr-s8600ms) if you force the pal output (transcoding) of the vcr the signal will be jitter-corrected with a good dvd recorder (panasonic or sony, i used a sony). Though, I haven't tried with s-video (long story) i see no reason it wouldn't work

these are home tv recordings, not purchased retail tapes (SECAM-L only, not SECAM-B), im not getting macrovision when i feed vcr directly to PC so hopefully it will work fine... can i ask what sony model u used and it worked well on fixing jitter, please?

[rgr]

i just want to make sure that this DVD recorder will work with SECAM tapes

And it's not like the SECAM->PAL conversion is already done by your VCR and the next equipment gets the PAL signal?
BTW. I haven't seen a DVD Recorder that supports SECAM on input.

[themaster1]

Are we talking about retail tapes, Secam B aswell (possibly with macrovision embedded) here ? If not probably worth it (i did my experiment with the hr-s8600ms) if you force the pal output (transcoding) of the vcr the signal will be jitter-corrected with a good dvd recorder (panasonic or sony, i used a sony). Though, I haven't tried with s-video (long story) i see no reason it wouldn't work

these are home tv recordings, not purchased retail tapes (SECAM-L only, not SECAM-B), im not getting macrovision when i feed vcr directly to PC so hopefully it will work fine... can i ask what sony model u used and it worked well on fixing jitter, please?

I used the Sony rdr hxd 890(french model), (part of rdr hxd 870 to 1070, all the same except the hdd size and perhaps different tv tuners)
Supposedly a panasonic Es-15 gives better results (to be confirmed really)

[JadHC]

i just want to make sure that this DVD recorder will work with SECAM tapes

And it's not like the SECAM->PAL conversion is already done by your VCR and the next equipment gets the PAL signal?
BTW. I haven't seen a DVD Recorder that supports SECAM on input.

nope. i feed my hauppauge with SECAM-L signal and it then feeds SECAM signal to my PC. so no conversion along the way. Im pretty sure there are SECAM DVD-recorders, i have friends who lived there and they were recording stuff on DVD. My friend for whom im digitizing the tapes did some recordings too.. Unfortunately he is 75 years old now and does not speak IT so when you ask what VCR/DVD recorder he has, he says "yes". And he has flip phone from 90s so he cant take good photos either... I can see that his DVD recorders are of bad quality (oversharpened double-edges, noisy, overblown colors, etc) but he has great TBC and no horizontal jitter. While my new recordings have great colors, little noise, not oversharpened, but there is some jitter as i dont have passthrough device in the middle.

I used the Sony rdr hxd 890(french model), (part of rdr hxd 870 to 1070, all the same except the hdd size and perhaps different tv tuners)
Supposedly a panasonic Es-15 gives better results (to be confirmed really)

Oh, this is very helpful! Its funny because Krazern in this thread below is not using ES-15 but ES-10 which should be close enough. His recordings have no jitter and he was super-kind enough to check the manual for me and find out that it does support SECAM.

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/410062-Which-capture-of-my-old-VHS-looks-the-best#post2694473

So it seems that this has come down to either lollo's choice of DVR-530H or Panasonic ES-10/ES-15.
I checked the manual of DVR-530H and it does support SECAM on both input and output and when compared to Panasonic, it seems to have more options. I just placed my order for DVR-530H and have one month free return option. Will test it when it arrives and in case it will misbehave, i will get ES-10/ES-15.

https://www.manualslib.com/manual/130234/Pioneer-Dvr-530h-S.html?page=98&term=secam&se...ected=5#manual

Thank you all for your help. This forum is truly one of the kind. I have never seen such amazing and supportive community... <3

[rgr]

xx

[Krazern]

Oh, this is very helpful! Its funny because Krazern in this thread below is not using ES-15 but ES-10 which should be close enough. His recordings have no jitter and he was super-kind enough to check the manual for me and find out that it does support SECAM.

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/410062-Which-capture-of-my-old-VHS-looks-the-best#post2694473

So it seems that this has come down to either lollo's choice of DVR-530H or Panasonic ES-10/ES-15.
I checked the manual of DVR-530H and it does support SECAM on both input and output and when compared to Panasonic, it seems to have more options. I just placed my order for DVR-530H and have one month free return option. Will test it when it arrives and in case it will misbehave, i will get ES-10/ES-15.

Panasonic DMR-ES10 is better than ES-15. Below u can see comparsion between ES10 and ES15.
https://www.youtube.com/watch v=9_xue8gGLM&ab_channel=datanordscanservice

I would really try to get ES10, but it can be a little hard. In Poland they arent often sold so i had to wait for it to show up. People usually don't know its capabilities and sell it for a low price. I got two ES10s because of the price (70 pln for one with non working DVD without remote and 90 pln for fully working one with remote, so basicly around 35eur for two)

[JadHC]

Oh, this is very helpful! Its funny because Krazern in this thread below is not using ES-15 but ES-10 which should be close enough. His recordings have no jitter and he was super-kind enough to check the manual for me and find out that it does support SECAM.

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/410062-Which-capture-of-my-old-VHS-looks-the-best#post2694473

So it seems that this has come down to either lollo's choice of DVR-530H or Panasonic ES-10/ES-15.
I checked the manual of DVR-530H and it does support SECAM on both input and output and when compared to Panasonic, it seems to have more options. I just placed my order for DVR-530H and have one month free return option. Will test it when it arrives and in case it will misbehave, i will get ES-10/ES-15.

Panasonic DMR-ES10 is better than ES-15. Below u can see comparsion between ES10 and ES15.
https://www.youtube.com/watch v=9_xue8gGLM&ab_channel=datanordscanservice

I would really try to get ES10, but it can be a little hard. In Poland they arent often sold so i had to wait for it to show up. People usually don't know its capabilities and sell it for a low price. I got two ES10s because of the price (70 pln for one with non working DVD without remote and 90 pln for fully working one with remote, so basicly around 35eur for two)

oh wow, this is amazing... Im sold! and thanks for the demo! ES-10 is super stable/static image where ES-15 indeed does have small shakiness.

I found some ES10 in Germany with free returns. (price is 100 EUR, but its still cheap compared to what i paid for VCR) so i can order it and test is alongside 530H.

They have two listed. They seem to be the same, just different colors?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/266271623138?hash=item3dff0687e2:g:Rg0AAOSwkFhkbx8X&amdata=en...Bk9SR4aMpfObYg

https://www.ebay.com/itm/256087782077?hash=item3ba00572bd:g:JEgAAOSwNTtkcGPU&amdata=en...Bk9SR4aMpfObYg

[Krazern]

oh wow, this is amazing... Im sold! and thanks for the demo! ES-10 is super stable/static image where ES-15 indeed does have small shakiness.

I found some ES10 in Germany with free returns. (price is 100 EUR, but its still cheap compared to what i paid for VCR) so i can order it and test is alongside 530H.

They have two listed. They seem to be the same, just different colors?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/266271623138?hash=item3dff0687e2:g:Rg0AAOSwkFhkbx8X&amdata=en...Bk9SR4aMpfObYg

https://www.ebay.com/itm/256087782077?hash=item3ba00572bd:g:JEgAAOSwNTtkcGPU&amdata=en...Bk9SR4aMpfObYg

I think they are the same, havent read anywhere about black one being worse or anything. You can also look for DMR-EH50 as it (probably) is the same recorder like ES10 but with HDD. I think EH52 is also the same but im not really sure. The ES10 is definitely the most popular one and checked by many.

If u have phone with IR u dont need to get one with remote.

[Krazern]

oh wow, this is amazing... Im sold! and thanks for the demo! ES-10 is super stable/static image where ES-15 indeed does have small shakiness

I upload samples from RDR-HXD895 and DMR-ES10 with JVC HR-J658 (composite). You can see the difference on the logo. It is usually more noticible but the tape is in a good state.

[Brad]

I upload samples from RDR-HXD895 and DMR-ES10 with JVC HR-J658 (composite). You can see the difference on the logo. It is usually more noticible but the tape is in a good state.

Thanks for the samples. If you come across a more noticeable difference, please upload that as well.

The noisy "posterization" effect that Lordsmurf complains about with Panasonic DMRs is visible. (May need to use the CTRL and + keys to zoom the screenshots to 200% in your browser.) This also negatively impacts the lossless compression: 8% larger for the Huffyuv video; 14% larger for this lossless PNG screenshot.




Contrast is a little too hot on the DMR-ES10 sample, but Y isn't clipping, so this could be fixed post-capture.

[Krazern]

Thanks for the samples. If you come across a more noticeable difference, please upload that as well.

There was much greater difference with tape i captured there - https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/410062-Which-capture-of-my-old-VHS-looks-the-best

Dont wan't to wear it no more, but i will capture some samples from other bad tapes

The noisy "posterization" effect that Lordsmurf complains about with Panasonic DMRs is visible. (May need to use the CTRL and + keys to zoom the screenshots to 200% in your browser.) This also negatively impacts the lossless compression: 8% larger for the Huffyuv video; 14% larger for this lossless PNG screenshot.

Oh, now i see it too. Haven't seen anyone calling it directly like you did here on these samples.

There aren't many options in ES10, only AV denoising. With Sony RDR-HXD895 i played a little with its options (with previous tapes i tried with it) and dont really remember what i set in settings. I think i used the lowest denoising option, adjusted blacks and whites. I just wanted to show the line TBC strength in these samples. I also used S-VIDEO out, not s-video through scart (Line 1) in ES10

[themaster1]

There aren't many options in ES10, only AV denoising. With Sony RDR-HXD895 i played a little with its options (with previous tapes i tried with it) and dont really remember what i set in settings. I think i used the lowest denoising option, adjusted blacks and whites. I just wanted to show the line TBC strength in these samples. I also used S-VIDEO out, not s-video through scart (Line 1)

You can capture in hdmi if you have a hdmi capture card with the hxd895 (i use it all the time now). Don't use the Y denoising, chroma denoising toward the middle is fine( it's not that great/efficient anyway), most interesting features are the black/white levels/contrast/tint/ sharpness controls

[Krazern]

] You can capture in hdmi if you have a hdmi capture card with the hxd895 (i use it all the time now).

How much would the cheapest hdmi card card that captures in 576i cost? I have a very limited budget. I already bought hauppaauge live 2 for 50 euro (i know it doesn't seem much) and don't really want to invest much more (many outgoings, like college...) I'm sure it would be much more transparent, cleaner because of direct capture of digitized source.

[themaster1]

QUOTE=Krazern;2694961]

] You can capture in hdmi if you have a hdmi capture card with the hxd895 (i use it all the time now).How much would the cheapest hdmi card card that captures in 576i cost? I have a very limited budget. I already bought hauppaauge live 2 for 50 euro (i know it doesn't seem much) and don't really want to invest much more (many outgoings, like college...) I'm sure it would be much more transparent, cleaner because of direct capture of digitized source.

I've got This One bought it 2nd hand for like 40€. Works fine, expect some a/v offset though

[JadHC]

oh wow, this is amazing... Im sold! and thanks for the demo! ES-10 is super stable/static image where ES-15 indeed does have small shakiness

I upload samples from RDR-HXD895 and DMR-ES10 with JVC HR-J658 (composite). You can see the difference on the logo. It is usually more noticible but the tape is in a good state.

sorry for coming late to these. i didnt realize you posted the samples so fast... these look great (both of them). I do see some ghosting to the right of the image, but that could be fixed with some filters (i recall someone fixing severe ghosting here with flawless results).
What I like about Panasonic is that is has more stable image. You can really see that the bottom 10 rows are more-less fully aligned and the logo continues to the bottom edge of the video, where-as Sony is fully misaligned.
I do see some posterization in Panasonic, but I do wonder whether it is indeed a result of scart-input as you say. I thought my Pioneer/Panasonic DVRs would make it by Friday and I could post samples this weekend, but unfortunately not, so they will be arriving this Monday-Tuesday.
Ill then test both with S-video input/output out and will post the results. thanks a lot for your help

[Krazern]

Thanks for the samples. If you come across a more noticeable difference, please upload that as well.

So i had some free time to play with recorders and made more samples with more tapes.
I used JVC HR-S7500 with its s-video output. I tested ES10 with s-video output and s-video through scart as well.

I captured two tapes with passthrough to Hauppauge Live 2 but also simultaneously using HDD recording on Sony RDR-HXD895 (15mbps mpeg2) and DVD recording on Panasonic DMR-ES10 (XP mode). I used avidemux to cut video to fit in the 500MB file size limit. Panasonic doesnt seem to be consistent with its results, two avi files and simultaneous dvd ones differ from each other a little, which is weird as input was the same (AV3 all the time, in front of es10).

You can see what i meant with much weaker "frame" TBC in sony before, it skips frames while panasonic doesnt, or skips only few.
Line TBC difference isnt that visible but as i said, with the tape i captured and talked about in my thread the differenece seemed to be more visible for me.

PS. What do you think about the quality of that HR-S7500 vcr? I bought it for 60 euro (with shipping) but was sceptical about its state but seems to be playing tapes just fine.

[lollo]

Sorry, in your long file list I do not understand who is who.

Do you whish to compare:

ES10+USB-Live 2 versus ES10 directly on dvd? In both Composite and Y/C input signals? The same for HXD895?

[Krazern]

Sorry, in your long file list I do not understand who is who.

Do you whish to compare:

ES10+USB-Live 2 versus ES10 directly on dvd? In both Composite and Y/C input signals? The same for HXD895?

I used only s-video output from hr-s7500 and s-video inputs/outputs on recorders, so all are y/c. I recorded with hauppaauge and internal recorders in the same time.

I tried s-video output with scart (av1) on DMR-ES10 as it was said it has birghtness variations in normal s-video output (thats why i added scart in file names).

Internal records are additional, just wanted to show them too. What's nice about sony is that it captures whole frame unlike panasonic.

[JadHC]

Thanks for the samples. If you come across a more noticeable difference, please upload that as well.

So i had some free time to play with recorders and made more samples with more tapes.
I used JVC HR-S7500 with its s-video output. I tested ES10 with s-video output and s-video through scart as well.

I captured two tapes with passthrough to Hauppauge Live 2 but also simultaneously using HDD recording on Sony RDR-HXD895 (15mbps mpeg2) and DVD recording on Panasonic DMR-ES10 (XP mode). I used avidemux to cut video to fit in the 500MB file size limit. Panasonic doesnt seem to be consistent with its results, two avi files and simultaneous dvd ones differ from each other a little, which is weird as input was the same (AV3 all the time, in front of es10).

You can see what i meant with much weaker "frame" TBC in sony before, it skips frames while panasonic doesnt, or skips only few.
Line TBC difference isnt that visible but as i said, with the tape i captured and talked about in my thread the differenece seemed to be more visible for me.

PS. What do you think about the quality of that HR-S7500 vcr? I bought it for 60 euro (with shipping) but was sceptical about its state but seems to be playing tapes just fine.

nice samples... posterization is better via S-video output, but there is a lot of flickering going on that you cannot see with HXD895 (at least in the first sample). Other samples are similar in quality. Line TBC is very consistent in both samples with no horizontal jitter... quite interesting results... In the last sample, HXD895 gets adds this white/black border at the top while ES-10 doesnt.. I get the same result with Pioneer vs Panasonic which i will post shortly...

[JadHC]

Hi guys, both my ES-10 and Pioneer DVR-530H arrived today. I started some prelim testing...
Just FYI, i just plugged DVRs as-is and recorded. I did not adjust the DVR settings yet (it seems they sent me wrong remote for ES-10. When i press menu on the remote, i get an error, and i had no batteries for Pioneer remote), so will play with those over the weekend.

Regarding the initial testing - both samples have amazing lineTBC/horizontal-jitter removal [Panasonic is bit more stable]. Thanks both for advising the DVRs. I did not think i could get such stunning and stable image!
Panasonic ES-10 however introduces posterization (if i see properly) and really strong temporal denoising (there is this contour shadow following all the figures, especially if the image is darker), if i will be able to adjust the menu, ill try to turn that off to fix the issue.
Pioneer does not add stuff that shouldn't be there like Panasonic does (posterization, sharpening, denoising), but i do feel that the color management is worse. Denoising is much weaker, so the colors are not unified, there is overall green tint to the video and there is this green stripe on the left side in most of the recordings i did today that wasnt in the original 'VCR - hauppauge' connection.
Ill have to adjust the settings to see what is due to wrong settings and what is the default of the VCRs. I was trying to look for manuals how to setup passthrough DVRs, but they are not pinned in this thread. If you guys have any guides, id be eternally grateful, please.

PS: it seems both DVRs convert signal from SECAM to PAL as now in my Amarec-Tv, i have to set PAL instead of SECAM (in SECAM, i get crazy colors and the video freezes). [in my original connection VCR to Hauppauge to PC, i was recording in SECAM]

[Brad]

Krazern and JadHC: Thank you both for the additional samples. No time to dive deep with a response at the moment, but I've taken a look at them all.

I was trying to look for manuals how to setup passthrough DVRs, but they are not pinned in this thread.

This guide is pinned in the Capturing subforum: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/403635-Panasonic-DVD-recorder-passthrough-settings...15-DMR-ES25%29

it seems both DVRs convert signal from SECAM to PAL

That matches my memory from reading about these models, yeah.

[Krazern]

Hi guys, both my ES-10 and Pioneer DVR-530H arrived today. I started some prelim testing...
Just FYI, i just plugged DVRs as-is and recorded. I did not adjust the DVR settings yet (it seems they sent me wrong remote for ES-10. When i press menu on the remote, i get an error, and i had no batteries for Pioneer remote), so will play with those over the weekend.

Panasonic ES-10 however introduces posterization (if i see properly) and really strong temporal denoising (there is this contour shadow following all the figures, especially if the image is darker), if i will be able to adjust the menu, ill try to turn that off to fix the issue.
Pioneer does not add stuff that shouldn't be there like Panasonic does (posterization, sharpening, denoising), but i do feel that the color management is worse. Denoising is much weaker, so the colors are not unified, there is overall green tint to the video and there is this green stripe on the left side in most of the recordings i did today that wasnt in the original 'VCR - hauppauge' connection.

All you can set on Panasonic is disabling AV denoising (makes obvious difference) and eventually choose output on scart (Composite/RGB/S-Video)

I'm not really sure what you can do on Pioneer. On my sony i can adjust picture much more (uploaded settings menu above)

[JadHC]

Hello all,

i am posting another sample for ES10 but this time with NR turned off (thanks Brad for the guide)... The annoying temporal denoising is now gone and the image is nice and clear.

i did further testing and I think i will go with Panasonic ES10 due to following reasons:
1. Pioneer adds overall green tint to the image
2. In Pioneer recordings, there are these jumpy horizontal green lines on the left edge that werent there before ( i did about 5 hours of footage from 4 different tapes and its everywhere. as it is jumpy, i do not think it can be removed in post-processing)
3. every minute or so, there is a skipped frame at the top part of the image (white or magenta rectangle that flashes for a second)
4. to me, it seems that Pioneer jitter is worse and Panasonic as more stable image if im looking at the edges.

With NR turned off, Panasonic now seems like a great choice and very close to my original recordings without passthrough devise. there might be slight posterization but everything considered, it seems to be a small price for ultra-stable image.

[Krazern]

The cheapest HDMI card that captures in 576i is the Avermedia Live Gamer Portable 2 Plus. It costs around €60. It is a small and portable device that can be used to capture gameplay from consoles, computers, and other devices. It supports 576i resolution and can record at up to 1080p60.

Elgato Game Capture HD
Avermedia Live Gamer Extreme
Blackmagic Design Intensity Shuttle

What about Intensity Pro (non 4k)? I can buy it for around 45 euro. Is it good enough for hdmi capture? I think the breakout cable is included as well, and i read it's much better than 4K version in capturing analog sources. This way i could capture both digital and analog with one card.

[rgr]

The cheapest HDMI card that captures in 576i is the Avermedia Live Gamer Portable 2 Plus. It costs around €60. It is a small and portable device that can be used to capture gameplay from consoles, computers, and other devices. It supports 576i resolution and can record at up to 1080p60.

Avermedia Live Gamer Portable 2 Plus:
• Supported Resolutions (Video input):2160p, 1080p, 1080i, 720p, 576p, 480p, 480i <-- no 576i

Cost: 140USD

https://www.avermedia.com/product-detail/GC513