VHS recording, advices would be appreciated!

[Cornucopia]

Not counting of course all the dropouts, flagging, frame drops, color instabilities,...




Scott

[Truthler]

Not counting of course all the dropouts, flagging, frame drops, color instabilities,...




Scott

That will came from the bad quality of old video tape...
Oh, I I forgot the inferor quality of old analog NTSC devices and their terrible colors....... (Lord save us from NTSC)

I can affirm, the above mentioned device works well with my PAL (thus superior :P ) video tapes.... It is also true that I did not wach that tapes until wear and tear, so they are in very good condition. I first played many of that recorded tapes during the digitalization process.

[Truthler]

Disregard if you care about quality, or simply your video sanity.

I do not understand why Truthler posted that link, it is not related to VHS analog capture in any way.

Because we had a closed discussion on the forum. Lordsmurf knows the reason very well. I read his comments on this forum, but he is expert of nothing. I am a layman , but I have even more knowledge than him. What is he? Television repairer? Or even worse: a simple dealer, shop seller.... I have never trust in sellers/dealers... with good reason. Maybe Murf wants to sell something for the questioner what he does not really need. Reading the murf guy is just a waste of time.

[dellsam34]

While I do believe that software can indeed replace the VCR's processing stages if we are talking about extracting the RF signal from the video heads, It is only doable to a certain extent if the video has already been captured from the video out using a VCR with no TBC/DNR, Because some of the baked in artifacts become part of video and cannot be singled out. There are projects being worked on like the VHS-decode and the SingMai FPGA VHS player but those may or may not see the day of light and even when they do it will take a long time to make a consumer product out of them with an affordable price tag.

[lollo]

Disregard if you care about quality, or simply your video sanity.

I do not understand why Truthler posted that link, it is not related to VHS analog capture in any way.

Because we had a closed discussion on the forum. Lordsmurf knows the reason very well. I read his comments on this forum, but he is expert of nothing. I am a layman , but I have even more knowledge than him. What is he? Television repairer? Or even worse: a simple dealer, shop seller.... I have never trust in sellers/dealers... with good reason. Maybe Murf wants to sell something for the questioner what he does not really need. Reading the murf guy is just a waste of time.

Please, do not attack personally other users using my "question". Your first answer was "Because we had a closed discussion on the forum. Lordsmurf knows the reason very well". That was enough, without any need to edit and add the rest.

Try to discuss again with him only focusing on technical aspects (he should do the same), maybe you both will make peace and find some agreement

[lordsmurf]

Get a card that doesn't suck then.

I've been using ATI AIW since 2001. It's still the benchmark for SD ingest cards. Nothing better has come along to date. And honestly, that's sad. But it's more about $$$, sometimes cowing to ridiculous demands, rather than quality. ATI cared about quality.

A defining feature of these chips is that they have enough onboard memory

I can't say much more (read between the lines), but single chips don't cut it. There are limits. Multiple chips in tandem is what it takes. And yes, more RAM is nice, but RAM isn't the limiter. You can throw a wad of RAM at an actual multi-chip TBC, and it won't do much, point of diminishing returns.

That said, many product vendors choose to forego the direct-attached RAM and instead use a FPGA

Yes. Multi-chip.

Did you link the right thread? If anything, that thread is a testament to how good Magewell's implementation of the ADV7842 is

You'd better read it again. That ADI chip is nice at a glance, but it's at the bottom of the line TBC quality list, as it tends to make video worse, or better+worse. I wish it made video better, and we could all adopt line TBC capture cards. But it ain't so.

something like Neat Video. Modern software DNR is way better than that old 90s-era stuff

NeatVideo is 90s-era correction methods. It's awful, like taking a meat cleaver to a video, rather than the scalpel that is Avisynth.

You though that you arte an early beginner in digital video, but you started at least 2 years later than me (1998).

Nonsense. I was serious with video back in 1992, and was headhunted to work for studios in the 2000s, until health forced me to quit. Video was an accidental career, pro evolved from hobby, the right place at the right time. Clearly you have me confused with somebody else.

REALLY COOL? In national state film institutions/archives, who already digitalized real film stripes

Film restoration work is cool. But it's not what I specialize in (consumer analog formats).

and who had a speacial university degree.

Rarely. For one thing, there's really no "special degree" for video. Not even a lowly certificate. You can get a degree in broadcast, or filmmaking, or art, or something, but video is really a skill that comes with experience only. Maybe that's changed in the past decade, I don't know, though I doubt it. A quick Google search turns up nothing. (FYI: I considered trying to get an M.A. in some sort of germane video area in the 2000s, as I didn't have to pay for it, but there was nothing I could find. At most, you could get some courses to edit film, but the full filmmaking degree was just a waste of time.)

it didn't sound professional for me. Even well-to-do teenagers (like me)

That's just your teenage opinion speaking. It's not really accurate.

What was professional in it....? It's simply ridiculous.

You're one of "those people" that probably also thinks being a doctor is easy. Just grab some pill bottles and hand them out. Because that's all it is, right?

Oh I forget your filmmaking talent !
Oh, I forgot, you have "Broadcast experience" too :

Again, you've clearly got me confused with somebody else.
- I've long said I'm not a shooter ("filmmaker"). My work starts after the camera work is done -- sometimes long afterwards.
- My broadcast experience was so brief that I don't even want to mention it. Studio work had some intermittent overlap.

Seems like I'm obligated to use the internal 720p or 1080p upscaler which make no sense to me as the signal is interlaced.

Correct. HD capture of SD is nonsense.

NVIDIA_NEVNC-HEVC or rather the lossless UT VIDEO codec in OBS
Than you can supersample color grade it to HD with perfect resolution frame rate

Ridiculous. No.

That will came from the bad quality of old video tape....

False. Consumer analog video data is usually not bad. Cheap VCRs are bad. Cheap/wrong capture cards are bad.

inferor quality of old analog NTSC devices and their terrible colors....... (Lord save us from NTSC)

PAL sucks, too. It's no darling. It just sucks differently than NTSC. Old myth.

[Pinto007]

Use a simple USB SD capture card, record it in normal SD resolution with lossless codec like the NVIDIA_NEVNC-HEVC or rather the lossless UT VIDEO codec in OBS or Virtualdub2 capture mode.

OBS? Really? You are a total ignorant

[lollo]

something like Neat Video

Not sure if it was Neat Video fault or user bad set-up, but once we discussed about it and found that AviSynth filtering is equivalent or better: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-restore/11822-analog-transfer-digital.html

In term of VHS/S-VHS analog captures, I think there is nothing that Neat Video or Topaz Video Enhance AI can do that couldn't be achieved or beaten with Vapoursynth or Avisynth. (Cit. Selur)

[Truthler]

Use a simple USB SD capture card, record it in normal SD resolution with lossless codec like the NVIDIA_NEVNC-HEVC or rather the lossless UT VIDEO codec in OBS or Virtualdub2 capture mode.

OBS? Really? You are a total ignorant

There is no difficulty to capture from VHS if the VHS deck is in good shape, and the VHS casette and recorded material was not overused/ over watched. There is not much difference between analog capturig from a DVD via RCA or capturing from a good deck and an excellent quality material of a good casette. Nothing.
But I am affraid, that you have bad quality materials on the VHS, and you use NTSC (analog NTSC is a shit technology with ugly colors and bad resolution)

I recorded from VHS since 1998, when you were children, or most of Videohelp users just read about such things in magazines. Not because it was very expensive (because consumer level devices already existed in late 1990s) but they were not wide spread, and lot of people did not know about it.

[Truthler]

I had such BT878 Philips Tuner in 1998, but the card was greenish.
The year was 1998, when Lordsmurf only read about such things in magazines, or with bigger chance, he did not even know about the mere existence of such tuner capture card combos....I was very happy if I could record them in 320*240 resolution. That time it was cool quality. Someties I lost some frames due to high CPU usage, when I heard, that HW MPEG 2 encoder tuners arrived I bought one whic proved a very good decision. No more frame drope due to CPU usage....

And finally the faster DSL internet arrived, do you know how many VHS films did I capture that time? And later DVD-s in alalog way (via S-video) When they were protected, and protection removal was difficult. I was not a pirate, because I did not capture them for money, but for free, just for fun...

[dellsam34]

Whether NTSC, PAL or SECAM all can be captured with minimal loss if the right equipment and tools used, Even NTSC EP recorded on a crappy VCR from an analog TV station can look okay if the job done right, Note that the tape in the link couldn't even playback on a low end Sony VCR hooked up to a TV, bad tracking and muffed mono audio. It took a JVC VCR with line TBC and a capture device with frame TBC to get a stable video.

[lordsmurf]

There is no difficulty to capture from VHS

... with the right equipment. Not random equipment, equipment from thrift stores, etc.

if the VHS deck is in good shape,

What does "good shape" mean to you, precisely? Because that is a nothingburger bland statement.

and the VHS casette and recorded material was not overused/ over watched.

Let's say it was overused and overwatched. What, exactly, would be the problems that you cannot seem to overcome?

There is not much difference between analog capturig from a DVD

Why would you analog capture a DVD?

But I am afraid, that you have bad quality materials on the VHS,

An assumption based on what?

and you use NTSC (analog NTSC is a shit technology with ugly colors and bad resolution)

Again, myth. You're being intentionally ignorant and confrontational. PAL sucks, SECAM sucks, NTSC sucks. They're all bad for their own reasons. But that's really immaterial. The video is what it is, and our job is to understand those flaws, and try to correct for them.

Do you need a more precise example of why PAL sucks? Fine. Here's one: Hanover bars.

I recorded from VHS since 1998, when you were children, or most of Videohelp users just read about such things in magazines.

You just stated that you were a teenager in 1998, and I certainly was not. Life had already begun, bills, serious relationship, career, further education, etc. VH was still vcdhelp.com in 1999. I read, but felt no reason to participate. A few years later, after joining VH, I sometimes felt like the young'un compared to the nearer-retiring wise folks like gshelley and BJ_M (both of whom had some sage advice for me early in my newly minted video career, my 2nd career after 9/11 and the '03 mini-recession derailed the first one). Note my join date.

If you were "recording from VHS", then you were doing it to 352x240 VCDs (max) on Pentium II/III systems.

Not because it was very expensive (because consumer level devices already existed in late 1990s) but they were not wide spread, and lot of people did not know about it.

BS. I watched capture cards starting around '95/96, and nothing existed to quality. You had to make sacrifices in quality, like 320x240, RealMedia, WMV, VCD, MPEG-1, MJPEG, etc. It was all crappy stuff. I dabbled with some of the better SGI MPEG workstations in '97, which was beyond "normal" computers (Intel, AMD, Cyrix) still. Canopus and Matrox next had some $1k+ pro cards, mostly based around DV+MPEG. But it wasn't really until '00 that lossless and MPEG (and still buggy 1st gen), at good resolutions, no resources issues (aka dropped frames) became viable. Intel's P4 was the real catalyst for video.

I had such BT878 Philips Tuner in 1998, but the card was greenish.

BT8x8 chips were some of the most infamous crap chips. Lots of complaints circa '00, when better cards stated to exist, and people saw how bad BT actually was. The earliest VH posts were often about this fact. All sorts of flaws, everything from geometry to randomly reversing interlace. It's the only card chip that has VirtualDub special settings, to try (and often fails) to correct the mess those cards makes

.I was very happy if I could record them in 320*240 resolution. That time it was cool quality.

No, no it wasn't. Maybe to you, but not to serious video hobbyists/collectors, and not to video professionals. I'm sure some techie kids were impressed. "wow, video ... on my computer!", but nobody else was. But we were so close, I remember conversations in newsgroups where us collectors were near-salivating at the coming change, to be able to make our own DVDs, to fix quality from bad sources.

Someties I lost some frames due to high CPU usage, when I heard, that HW MPEG 2 encoder tuners arrived I bought one whic proved a very good decision. No more frame drope due to CPU usage....

The problem here is early MPEG hardware cards were just so soft. Blurry soft. Unless you dropped $$$$ on Matrox. Hauppauge PVR-250/350 (~2002) was tolerable, but nobody these days would find it even partially acceptable.

When they were protected, and protection removal was difficult.

That would be (essentially) never.
DeCSS was out at least by 1999 (I remember it on Napster), and the same was true of certain DataVideo TBCs.

[ElegantRain]

Please I'm asking you politely to stop replying to my topic. You're of no help, replies and replies are just getting the whole topic more confusing.

Please respect that, thank you.

[dellsam34]

It was good until the Truthler shit all over it with non related 4K crap.

Anyway, Energizerfellow just curious how do you know the Aja and Magewell cards are built in TBC? Does it specify that in the manual? Sometimes features in some chips are disabled by design, so looking up the chip data is not enough. I know some chips that BlackMagic used the TBC feature is disabled like in the Intensity Shuttle, I don't own one just from reading online.

Yes, the AJA and Magewell cards with analog inputs have a line (spatial) TBC in them that's used when they're fed an analog video signal.

Be aware you'll still have to deal with temporal distortion (field/frame pacing over time) from things like the tape stretching and the audio/visual sync issues that can cause. VHS, like all the heterodyne "color under" formats (VHS, Betamax, Video8, U-matic) are natively 4:2:2 chroma subsampling. The integer FPS rates of 30 and 60 also aren't "real" FPS rates in NTSC land. Don't use OBS for SD video capture.
.

[lordsmurf]

Anyway, Energizerfellow just curious how do you know the Aja and Magewell cards are built in TBC? Does it specify that in the manual? Sometimes features in some chips are disabled by design, so looking up the chip data is not enough. I know some chips that BlackMagic used the TBC feature is disabled like in the Intensity Shuttle, I don't own one just from reading online.

This is my understanding of Aja. But Magewell may have it enabled with default values; but those are lousy, and tend to actually makes video worse or worse+better, not simply better like JVC/Panasonic S-VHS VCRs.

Again, I wish it was that easy, card with built in TBC, call it a day. But it's just not so.

It was good until the Truthler shit all over it with non related 4K crap.

While true, it gave me an opportunity to delve more into historical capture information. SD capturing really advanced between 1995-2005, then petered out by 2010. There's really been nothing new for a decade now, aside from cheap Chinese USB dongles and "also does" features attached the HD cards. The inclusion of a TBC (frame or line) just never happened in that 1995-2010 window, and probably never will. There's too many newbies asking "what's new", when the answer is "nothing".

Get a good SD card from that EOL 2005-2010 era, use it, done. Good VCR, some sort of TBC (ideally an actual TBC). Capture, repeat until done. The main issue is acquiring the now-legacy hardware in good condition (especially VCRs and TBCs), and learning how to use it. Note that trying to force it onto Win10 just does not work well. Take note: the "I demand Win10" crowd is often the same as the HD crowd. You end up with the same quality compromises that you had in the late 90s. OBS, Blackmagic, Easycaps ... ugh. So again, the relevance of history.

[ElegantRain]

That ADI chip has some potential, but it's not enabled, or at least not fully enabled. The raw ADV7842 performance on its own is not great, and can in fact make video worse -- which is clearly why it was disabled on these HD cards. This was known year ago. ADI chose to abandon these functions, rather than make them better in latter chips. There is currently no way to replace a quality S-VHS VCR with line TBC to get quality line TBC performance (with some DVD recorders coming next).

Some additional notes about the Magewell hdmi pro capture card.

After contacts established between another member and Magewell , Magewell apparently clarified that they do have choose not to implement the Advanced time-base correction (TBC) with frame synchronization and 3D comb filter even if these features are integrant part of the ADV7842 ( main card chipset ) and all requirements were met namely memory in excess of 128 MB ( card has 256 MB fast in board memory). Apparently they choose instead using the significant amount of memory installed to implement a multiple buffer system that they say completely avoid lost frames if the transfer speed is enough. As the interface is PCIe 2.0 transfer speed is really not a problem. Related to the 3D Comb I tried using the Snell & Wilcox tests a capture using the composite input and it seems indeed that the 3D comb filter is also inactive.

It´s a pity as apparently according to http://forum.lddb.com/viewtopic.php?p=81549#p81549 the 3D comb from the ADV7842 it´s the best ever. It seems that analog is really not a priority for the capture card makers in this moment and even when they have the possibility to make an outstanding card in what analog is concerned they choose to prioritize digital and neglect analog.

Even so I continue to find this card to be one of the best in its class.

I've read that whole topic and in the end it seems like the Magewell Pro Capture isn't the best but is far from being the worst. I don't have $1000 - $3000 USD to put in VHS ripping. I think I'll get the Magewell card and a qaulity VHS player and learn recording with VirtualDub.

I've learned a lot in this topic, lots of knowledge and informations. As of now I guess I'm trying to sit in the middle of

• Price
• Quality
• Compatibility (Windows 10)

The Magewell may not be for purist and ultimate archivist, but where I'm at in life trying to buy a house it would already be a huge investment to put 1000$ CAD in this hobby. The in-between solution seems to be the Magewell card paired with a great VCR cleaned.

[dellsam34]

Looks like you're heading the right path but I personally don't like to capture VHS from HDMI, See If you can get the SDI version, At least SDI is fully backward compatible and sticks to the SD standard while HDMI favors progressive when in SD.

Both analog to SDI and analog to HDMI boxes have the same price ranges ($100-$250) as well as HDMI-USB and SDI-USB adapters ($80-$250), You need one from each category if using a laptop so your investement could range from $180 to $500. If using a desktop that's a different story, you could get away with one PCI card.

[hdfills]

Truthler, please do not try the hate tactic towards lord smurf ... his has helped me with his knowledge has he has 1000s on this site , i feel you maybe jelous of him , he is a master in video and helped me amazingly in everything i do day to day ... there is just no need and no credit to what you have been saying ....

[ElegantRain]

Looks like you're heading the right path but I personally don't like to capture VHS from HDMI, See If you can get the SDI version, At least SDI is fully backward compatible and sticks to the SD standard while HDMI favors progressive when in SD.

Both analog to SDI and analog to HDMI boxes have the same price ranges ($100-$250) as well as HDMI-USB and SDI-USB adapters ($80-$250), You need one from each category if using a laptop so your investement could range from $180 to $500. If using a desktop that's a different story, you could get away with one PCI card.

Hi, I plan on buying this one

https://www.avshop.ca/video-computer-video-hardware/magewell-pro-capture-hdmi-card

which seems to come with a breakout cable to capture Component, Composite and S-Video. For the audio I'll send the LR from my VCR to my Motu M.2 card.

Pretty sure with this setup I'll get decent results.

[dellsam34]

Advanced AFE decoders that sit somewhere between a ASIC and a SoC with features like 3D Y/C comb filtering and a line/field/frame TBC have been a thing for well over a decade at this point. Renesas, Texas Instruments, and Analog Devices (missing anybody?) all have at least one in current production with the likes of Panasonic and Mitsubishi in the past as well. Examples include, but not limited to, the ISL51002, TVP5160, and ADV7842. You'll just see them under phrases like "Analog VCR “Trick Mode” support" (Renesas) or "Adaptive Digital Line Length Tracking (ADLLT™) algorithm" (ADI). TI straight-up calls it a TBC at least.

I agree, the ADV7802 inside most of the pro devices made a decade ago like S&W TBS800 and GrassValley CVR800 have NTSC/PAL 3D comb filter, 3D noise reduction, Advanced time-base correction (TBC) with frame synchronization, I tested it myself and it has rock solid performance.

[ElegantRain]

Advanced AFE decoders that sit somewhere between a ASIC and a SoC with features like 3D Y/C comb filtering and a line/field/frame TBC have been a thing for well over a decade at this point. Renesas, Texas Instruments, and Analog Devices (missing anybody?) all have at least one in current production with the likes of Panasonic and Mitsubishi in the past as well. Examples include, but not limited to, the ISL51002, TVP5160, and ADV7842. You'll just see them under phrases like "Analog VCR “Trick Mode” support" (Renesas) or "Adaptive Digital Line Length Tracking (ADLLT™) algorithm" (ADI). TI straight-up calls it a TBC at least.

I agree, the ADV7802 inside most of the pro devices made a decade ago like S&W TBS800 and GrassValley CVR800 have NTSC/PAL 3D comb filter, 3D noise reduction, Advanced time-base correction (TBC) with frame synchronization, I tested it myself and it has rock solid performance.

Thanks for the feedback, will order eventually!

[energizerfellow]

To clarify on those points from FLP437 and Magewell, the ADV7842 used in the Magewell Pro Capture HDMI (and AIO) needs direct-attached SDRAM to enable either the frame TBC and/or 3D comb filter (see section External Memory Requirements). Magewell chose not to have the SDRAM, so the ADV7842 is limited to 2D comb and line TBC, which both appear to be enabled in Magewell's implementation..

That said, however, the video engine on these cards includes frame rate conversion/control, which you'll see on the full specs page. Magewell cards are basically FPGA-based video processors that just happen to also be a capture card, which explains their prices.

As long as you're capturing either YC (S-video) or YPbPr (component) instead of CVBS (composite), you don't need the 3D comb filter anyways. Comb/notch filtering is for separating out the Y (luma/brightness) and C (chroma/color) from a composite signal, which isn't needed if the signal has already been broken out into S-video or component at the source.

[ElegantRain]

To clarify on those points from FLP437 and Magewell, the ADV7842 used in the Magewell Pro Capture HDMI (and AIO) needs direct-attached SDRAM to enable either the frame TBC and/or 3D comb filter (see section External Memory Requirements). Magewell chose not to have the SDRAM, so the ADV7842 is limited to 2D comb and line TBC, which both appear to be enabled in Magewell's implementation..

That said, however, the video engine on these cards includes frame rate conversion/control, which you'll see on the full specs page. Magewell cards are basically FPGA-based video processors that just happen to also be a capture card, which explains their prices.

As long as you're capturing either YC (S-video) or YPbPr (component) instead of CVBS (composite), you don't need the 3D comb filter anyways. Comb/notch filtering is for separating out the Y (luma/brightness) and C (chroma/color) from a composite signal, which isn't needed if the signal has already been broken out into S-video or component at the source.

Thank you for that additional information, really interesting.

[lordsmurf]

I've read that whole topic and in the end it seems like the Magewell Pro Capture isn't the best but is far from being the worst. I don't have $1000 - $3000 USD to put in VHS ripping.

Magewell is an HD card that "also does" SD. You're paying a huge premium for the HD, more than twice the cost of a good SD card. With a $3k budget, you're really throwing money in the wrong places.

Also, the ADI chip apparently uses the default line TBC feature (and let's just ignore the hit-or-miss performance for a moment). When the S-VHS VCR also has line, the 2nd line (the capture card) is inert. You cannot stack line (nor stack frame; you can stack line+frame). So you'll be paying extra for a feature that doesn't work whatsoever. That ADI chip is inferior to the line TBCs in VCRs, so you wouldn't want to disable the VCR TBC. You could use a non-TBC VCR, but quality starts at the VCR, and you'd be harming image quality even further by not pairing a non-TBC deck with a strong line (ie, ES10/15, this ADI chip, using the chip defaults, is weak line performance; and note that I've yet to see the ADI have "proper" line settings that don't do harm).

What you still lack is frame TBC, and the fancy RAM buffer in the card isn't a frame TBC. So you're in a far worse spot, an expensive wrong tool, no frame corrections of any kind. Line is intraframe, frame is interframe. Line alone doesn't work because video isn't a still image. The ES10/15 is at least a line TBC paired with a (standard to all DVD recorders) non-TBC frame sync.

I think you're somewhat randomly throwing money at this, not yet fully grasping the moving parts that create a workflow. VCR>Magewell isn't a workflow. And it likely will not give you the results you're hoping for -- and at double the price.

[lollo]

To clarify on those points from FLP437 and Magewell, the ADV7842 used in the Magewell Pro Capture HDMI (and AIO) needs direct-attached SDRAM to enable either the frame TBC and/or 3D comb filter (see section External Memory Requirements). Magewell chose not to have the SDRAM, so the ADV7842 is limited to 2D comb and line TBC, which both appear to be enabled in Magewell's implementation..

Just a question then: as many are using a S-VHS with lineTBC or a VCR without lineTBC and DVD Recorder passthrough as lineTBC, the Magewell Pro Capture HDMI (and AIO) card is useless compared to a good quality SD card.
Or does the ADV7842 chip have superior A/D conversion quality than the good quality SD cards? (I do not think so)

Edit: just reading lordsmurf message before mine, he just answered my question

[dellsam34]

Magewell specifically chose 8bit ADC for most of their external boxes while some consumer cards digitize at 10 bit and process in 8 bit (not sure about the above linked PCI one), Other pro capture cards digitize at 12bit and process at 10 bit or 8 bit software selectable.

[lordsmurf]

Magewell specifically chose 8bit ADC for most of their external boxes while some consumer cards digitize at 10 bit and process in 8 bit (not sure about the above linked PCI one), Other pro capture cards digitize at 12bit and process at 10 bit or 8 bit software selectable.

Note that "8-bit" is actually 8*8*8 (RGB/YUV), so actually 24-bit altogether (16.7M colors).

And VHS is equivalent to about 6-bit (18-bit, 0.26M colors) to 7-bit (21-bit, 2.1M colors), especially due to the color loss in darks/shadows and highlights. And dithered, due to the grain patterning. The bit depth is directly related to facts during recording: camera quality, signal quality, generation of dub vs. master, even tape grade/quality.

Same for most consumer analog formats: S-VHS, Hi8, Video8, arguable even NTSC DV25 shot with low-end consumer camcorders. Perhaps even U-matic, though arguably not well-shot Betacam.

So 8-bit is adequate, and higher bits are just bloating the file size needlessly.

[FLP437]

I am probably the member that first began using the magewell cards in early 2016. Not only I do have several magewell cards (Pro capture hdmi, Pro capture sdi and a USB AIO) but I also tested extensively the pro capture hdmi during these almost 6 year and made during this period in excess of 1000 captures in between VSH, video8 and HI8. Not only have I tested these devices but I have compared them with a large number of other capture devices (well in excess of 20) from inicial low cost cards as the ATI 600 usb and Hauppauge usb live 2 all the way up to ensemble design brighteye 75 devices and in between a large array of intermediate models as the startech usb3hdcap, Osprey 260e, the referred magewell pro capture hdmi and a lot of others devices .

Currently l use a workflow based on the brighteye 75, (ADV7403, 14 bit adc, 12 bit pipeline end to end and final processing to 10 bit, or a brighteye 3, I have both) however these are more expensive devices if bought new, but they also provide slightly better results ( yes they are still manufactured and cost between 1100-1400 usd and come with five year warranty). Is debatable but even at this premium price this solution that do include in the same device a capture card with a tbc is probably cheaper and in my opinion better then to buy an avt8710 or a Tbc 1000 used without warranty and sometimes in unknown condition for prices between 900 and 2000 usd and on top of this still a capture card, again used no warranty and in unknown condition.


That said the magewell was probably one of the best cards being sold back in these days in the range of price between 200 and 300 usd for HD but also for SD analog sources and I think it still is. It does flawless and solid SD captures. It is for sure a great option for anyone in the market for 1080p50/60 4:4:4 lossless capture card who also wants lossless SD analog captures.

The greater advantage of the magewell is to be extremely tolerant to SD analog noisy and unstable sources and an extremely flexible card in term of features and settings . Also very good line correction, probably the best horizontal stabilization available in a capture card sold in these days with the added benefit of the ADLLT technology of ADV decoders included. Can do solid captures without the presence of a full frame tbc. Most of times the best results are achieved with source player line tbc off which was the case with digital8 cameras playing video8 tapes for instance. With VHS and a JVC HR-9600 the best results were however with the player line tbc on. It depends on the line tbc quality in the player, but most of the time the card alone performs better, but not always.

So far with the exception of the brighteye devices that do have a full frame tbc included I have not found other devices that do support unstable, noisy analog signals as the magewell does without an external full frame tbc, and I have tested so far a large number of devices.


As I said the card can do solid SD analog captures and if a correct environment is selected between the card, pc hardware and capture software no frames will be dropped/ inserted neither does it generate audio/video synchronizing errors. Never had a problem in more then a thousand captures.

Even if the magewell Pro capture hdmi card doesn’t have the TBC with frame synchronization and 3D Combo Filter that does come included in the ADV7842 chipset enabled, by magewell option, it does have:

Large and high speed memory in excess of 268 MB (was more then enough to activate TBC and 3D filter if that was magewell desire), used for buffering video frames

Adaptative digital line length tracking (ADLLT)

~400MB/s per channel DMA bandwidth in PCIe 2.0 systems

Support for GPUDirect/DirectGMA*for Nvidia/AMD video adapter chipsets
(Captured data will be directly transferred from the Magewell video
engine to the graphics memory)

This is enough to prevent dropped or inserted frames

Some basic features

Support of windows 7/8/10, Linux and Mac

12 bit ADC and Full 10-bit video processing

Support of hdmi, composite, Y/C, component and rgb input formats

Support for almost any video resolutions up to 2048x2160 pixels including personalized settings

Support for customized EDID

Support for 4:2:0 8-bit up to 4:4:4 10-bit capture formats (YUV or RGB)

Support for up to 8 audio channels (up to 32bit/192Mhz)

Support of all color formats, support and conversion between TV range and full range

Extremely flexible card with lots of features through FPGA( cropping, scaling, deinterlacing, DAR conversion, color format conversion, etc)

DirectShow support, large support by third parts capture software providers, extensive 10 bit lossless and visual lossless video codecs support (magicYUV, utvideo, FFV1,X264/X265 lossless, prores, DNxHR, etc

[dellsam34]

I've added the Snell & Willcox to the list in my latest thread, although it is new acquisition I'm impressed so far, It is based on the Analog Devices ADV7802. 3D comb filter for composite, 3D DNR, line and frame TBC, Its line TBC is better and more sophisticated than the built in JVC VCR.

[lollo]

Thanks FLP437 for your report, well detailed as usual

12 bit ADC and Full 10-bit video processing
Support of hdmi, composite, Y/C, component and rgb input formats
Support for almost any video resolutions up to 2048x2160 pixels including personalized settings
Support for customized EDID
Support of all color formats
Support for 4:2:0 8-bit up to 4:4:4 10-bit capture formats
Support for up to 8 audio channels (up to 32bit/192Mhz)
Support of all color formats, support and conversion between TV range and full range
Extremely flexible card with lots of features through FPGA( cropping, scaling, deinterlacing, Dar conversion, color format conversion, etc)
Large support by third parts of 10 bit lossless and visual lossless video codecs (magicYUV, utvideo, FFV1,X264/X265 lossless, prores, DNxHR, etc

However, I wonder how this big "arsenal" is relevant to a simple SD analog VHS capture requested by OP!

About lineTBC performances, the Magewell chip could be better, equal or superior to the lineTBC of a VCR, as it should be. It depends more on the videotape than the intrinsic quality of the circuitery.

Finally, because the VCR and not the capture card is the most important hardware in the vhs capture, I think is better to have a second recommended VCR (i.e. a Panasonic in addition to a JVC) and a recommeded SD capture card to face problematic tape requiring jiiter correction and similar, instead of spending money in a "not needed" capture card. But that's is just my opinion.