Starting off with Video8

[video8pal]

Hi,

I've got maybe 40-50 olf Video8s & I need to digitise them. I have an old working camera that plays the tapes with an s-video and analog output. I'm putting them straight to digital format, no dvd whatsoever. I have tried the DVD route before and it was of an ok quality. I've tried a HDD recorder into mpeg format but found it was too pixelated/too much digital noise. I'd take them to a professional but given how many tapes I have (I also have a larger number of old vhs taapes to digitise too), it'd make more sense for me to get my own gear. I'm in Ireland so all the tapes are PAL.

I have multiple large external hard drives so I'm not too concerned with disk space. Picture quality is paramount for me. I intend to edit them in VideoReDo to play through tv's, sharing etc.

I've spoked to Hauppauge who don't recommend the HD-PVR (but I'd seen a video review saying it was perfect for old vhs tapes etc.), they recommend the USBLive2 as they say the h264 format wouldn't blow up well (I suppose implying the USBLive2 would blow up better to a bigger screen).

I understand some devices stop recording if it feels there is a break in play but I need one that will record right through & I can edit those bits out afterwards.

I have a Sony Vaio, 8gb Windows 7, 2.4GHz Intel Premium laptop with USB 3.0 but no firewire. I also have an old Dell with a firewire connection though but in general it's a slow piece of junk. It'd only be good enough for copying files, not capturing.

So to my question. In order to produce the best picture quality from the videos on a computer screen or tv, would the best route be to go with
1: backwards compatible Digital8
2: Black Magic
3: Canopus
or 4: Hauppauge USBLive2?

Any help/advice would be greatly appreciated!

[smrpix]

You will find strong advocates for all the methods you describe, each swearing that the others are crap.

For me, the complexity/quality matrix says use a D8 camcorder. Built-in TBC, fewer electronic manipulations between tape and output, losless editing once it's converted to digital.

Let the games begin.

[ackboo]

It all depends on how much time and money you want to spend. Since you also have some VHS tapes to take care of maybe a single method for all tapes could make sense. I picked the digital8 route for my video8 tapes because it was the easiest way (no audio sync problems) and I didn't have another camcorder to use. All in all it came out allright, thanks to QTGMC (deinterlace and denoise in one tool) and avisynth. I used virtualdub to edit the DV-AVI files losslessly and archived the resulting files. Then with megui I encoded the DV files to a delivery format.
One drawback of Digital8 in PAL land is this :
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/354425-Hi8-capture-using-Digital8-camcorder-Edge-color-issues
Also PAL camcorders don't all have a passthrough mode, so you can only use the camcorder for video8 tapes if you don't get the right one.

Blackmagic can be problematic for old tapes, it can be done but from what I read here maybe not worth the hassle.

Canopus is a solid option, your old computer can be used to copy the files. There is no real capture happening when you use DV, everything happen on the canopus or camcorder with firewire output. So your old computer is allright for that task

Hauppauge with proper capture chain should give you the best quality. And you can use this for both video8 and VHS. It is time consuming and there is a learning curve for both capture and postprocessing.

edit : about 19 models of Digital8 camcorders have a passthrough, meaning you can input analog video via s-video and get a DV file. This means you can use a Digital8 camcorder for video8 and VHS if you get the right one.

[JVRaines]

I have just been through this — capturing some ratty old Video8 tapes. I started with a Sony Digital8 camcorder. The TBC worked fine and it was very convenient having it spit out DV. But the picture was noisy, the black level was too high, and there was a rather prominent head-switch area. Then I got a higher-end reconditioned Sony Hi8 deck with TBC, noise reduction and dropout compensation. Much smoother picture and it masks the head-switch noise completely. I just did an uncompressed capture with the StarTech SVID2USB2 (by client request) and I'd say the video is a touch better than what I get with my ADVC110 DV converter.

[VHSRules]

You mention your StarTech capture device. I have had great results using the KWORLD DVD maker, capture device. Probably some people would look down on these products, but they do the job well in my opinion. I also captured uncompressed. File sizes were huge, but thats what an external drive is for. Think most of the USB capture devices are based on the Empia capture chips.

[video8pal]

Canopus is a solid option, your old computer can be used to copy the files. There is no real capture happening when you use DV, everything happen on the canopus or camcorder with firewire output. So your old computer is allright for that task

Hauppauge with proper capture chain should give you the best quality. And you can use this for both video8 and VHS. It is time consuming and there is a learning curve for both capture and postprocessing.

OK for a baseline I took a video8, vhs and vhs-c tape that I'd done myself previously to a 'professional' guy who digitised them for €8 each. I compared these & they about the same. Parts where there were tracking problems he cut out so I still think it's best to do it myself. What I'd spend getting someone to do it for me, I'd be able to get some serious equipment as I've at least 140 tapes to do. So from what you guys have said & other forums I've been reading, It looks like a video8 camcorder/vcr & a Canopus or Hauppauge to digitise them is the best route.

I'd like to get the Hauppauge HD-PVR because it has the added bonus of being able to record from a hdmi output but I was told by Hauppage "I think you will get the best quality video from your old VCR and 8mm if you use the HVR-1975 (for Europe) at MPEG2 and then use some software to convert to MP4". The HVR-1975 & Canopus look to have the same features so it's a toss of a coin.

[VHSRules]

Canopus is a solid option, your old computer can be used to copy the files. There is no real capture happening when you use DV, everything happen on the canopus or camcorder with firewire output. So your old computer is allright for that task

Hauppauge with proper capture chain should give you the best quality. And you can use this for both video8 and VHS. It is time consuming and there is a learning curve for both capture and postprocessing.

OK for a baseline I took a video8, vhs and vhs-c tape that I'd done myself previously to a 'professional' guy who digitised them for €8 each. I compared these & they about the same. Parts where there were tracking problems he cut out so I still think it's best to do it myself. What I'd spend getting someone to do it for me, I'd be able to get some serious equipment as I've at least 140 tapes to do. So from what you guys have said & other forums I've been reading, It looks like a video8 camcorder/vcr & a Canopus or Hauppauge to digitise them is the best route.

I'd like to get the Hauppauge HD-PVR because it has the added bonus of being able to record from a hdmi output but I was told by Hauppage "I think you will get the best quality video from your old VCR and 8mm if you use the HVR-1975 (for Europe) at MPEG2 and then use some software to convert to MP4". The HVR-1975 & Canopus look to have the same features so it's a toss of a coin.

Not seen that HVR-1975 before, it looks good. Hope it goes well for you, let us know how you get on.

[video8pal]

Not seen that HVR-1975 before, it looks good. Hope it goes well for you, let us know how you get on.

Will do! On a side-note. What I got on dvd, I ripped using DVDDecrypter into VOB files & was able to edit on VideoReDo at 720p which kept all the quality of the original VOB file but allowed the versatility of being able to share with family in a format I know their tv could play.

After some quick review-searching, the Canopus isn't looking great and the Hauppauge HVR-1975 is mpeg-2 which I know from experience I found wasn't great on quality. I'm leaning towards trying the Hauppauge HD-PVR2 against Hauppauge's advice for the control I'll get. It tends to get better reviews but again, a lot of reviews are down to personal opinion.

But just looking now, since the HD-PVR only supports s-video & HDMI, it could be problematic getting a vcr that supports either of these.

Hauppauge initially also recommended the USB-Live2 which records in mpeg2 format also, stating that people find saving old videos in this format gets you much better digital quality to watch. Any thoughts on mpeg2 versus h264?

[Brad]

What do you mean by "the control I'll get"?

You have to understand that MPEG-2 and H.264 don't indicate one defined level of quality. An H.264 file produced by a poor implementation or bad settings will look worse than MPEG-2 even though it's a newer, more efficient standard. The standard doesn't precisely define how the encoder produces its output.


Real-time compression into either format heavily restricts the features available, lowering the quality compared to an encode produced after capture.


There is also a difference between realtime software implementations (USB-Live2) vs hardware implementations (the other two).

[video8pal]

I've ripped dvd's into vob's & found that mp4 gave me the better quality & with the HD-PVR I have the option of recording in ts, mts or mp4 whereas most other devices are mpeg2-only.

It's hard to find a real quality comparison out there as some websites differ in their opinion, much like regular users. Would I see much of a difference between say the Canopus ADVC110, the USB-Live2 or HD-PVR? Bearing in mind I'm a windows user so final cut pro isn't available to me. I find Video ReDo excellent for splicing & keeping input quality though it doesn't handle avi's.

[video8pal]

Maybe am I going about this the wrong way & should just put them on dvd & use software to put them in whatever format after that? DVD recording should get me about the same picture quality as any other device?

[manono]

Maybe am I going about this the wrong way & should just put them on dvd & use software to put them in whatever format after that?

Although that's the easy way out, you won't get the best quality doing it that way. Capture it in the best quality possible and take it from there.

It sort of depends on how much time you're willing to put in and what results will satisfy you. Plenty of people do it the way you're proposing.

[Brad]

I've ripped dvd's into vob's & found that mp4 gave me the better quality & with the HD-PVR I have the option of recording in ts, mts or mp4 whereas most other devices are mpeg2-only.

Unless you recompressed the VOBs when you ripped them, they should be the exact same quality as the original DVD -- better than any MP4 re-encode.

TS, MTS, and MP4 are all just containers. They are different ways of holding the same H.264 data that the HD PVR chip spits out.

[video8pal]

[QUOTE=manono;2436383]

Although that's the easy way out, you won't get the best quality doing it that way. Capture it in the best quality possible and take it from there.

It sort of depends on how much time you're willing to put in and what results will satisfy you. Plenty of people do it the way you're proposing.

Thanks very much. I don't mind putting in the time, I just want the best quality so if I knew the device that would give me the best quality I could get the ball rolling on it. I'm big into photography so I always look at detail which is why I'd like to go with the best route for quality.

[video8pal]

Unless you recompressed the VOBs when you ripped them, they should be the exact same quality as the original DVD -- better than any MP4 re-encode.

TS, MTS, and MP4 are all just containers. They are different ways of holding the same H.264 data that the HD PVR chip spits out.

Thanks very much for that info. After I ripped, I cut & saved a segment in mpeg2 which VideoRedo suggested & at 720p mp4 for comparison & I didn't see much of a difference. It might be more noticeable if there was fast movement in the frames though

[manono]

...I just want the best quality so if I knew the device that would give me the best quality I could get the ball rolling on it.

Whatever caps as lossless will give you the best quality. Capping as DV AVI is certainly more convenient than lossless (easy to edit and no audio synch problems) but the initial quality might be a bit lower. I've used both a USB capping device for lossless and a Canopus box for DV AVI and usually cap in DV AVI these days. It's just so much easier with fewer problems. I make lots of intermediate files from there to the final output and they're always lossless. I've seen plenty of caps from VHS to DVD recorders and they're invariably of lesser quality. VHS just has so much noise that there's not enough bitrate allowed for DVD video to get decent results.

Just my opinions and worth about what you paid for them. I've capped from maybe a 75 different VHS tapes, mostly PAL with some NTSC.

[video8pal]

...I just want the best quality so if I knew the device that would give me the best quality I could get the ball rolling on it.

Whatever caps as lossless will give you the best quality. Capping as DV AVI is certainly more convenient than lossless (easy to edit and no audio synch problems) but the initial quality might be a bit lower. I've used both a USB capping device for lossless and a Canopus box for DV AVI and usually cap in DV AVI these days. It's just so much easier with fewer problems. I make lots of intermediate files from there to the final output and they're always lossless. I've seen plenty of caps from VHS to DVD recorders and they're invariably of lesser quality. VHS just has so much noise that there's not enough bitrate allowed for DVD video to get decent results.

Just my opinions and worth about what you paid for them. I've capped from maybe a 75 different VHS tapes, mostly PAL with some NTSC.

Thanks very much for the breakdown. What software would you use when you have the captured files?

[manono]

What software would you use when you have the captured files?

AviSynth and (almost) nothing but for the video. Audacity for audio work. CCE for encoding for DVD (HC-Enc is an outstanding free alternative) with DVDAuthorGUI for menus. RipBot264 for making MP4s for upload to YouTube or for other purposes.

[video8pal]

What software would you use when you have the captured files?

AviSynth and (almost) nothing but for the video. Audacity for audio work. CCE for encoding for DVD (HC-Enc is an outstanding free alternative) with DVDAuthorGUI for menus. RipBot264 for making MP4s for upload to YouTube or for other purposes.

Excellent. I'll be putting them straight to mp4's for online sharing, I won't be worrying about dvds or anything like that so it shouldn't be a big problem.

[VHSRules]

What software would you use when you have the captured files?

AviSynth and (almost) nothing but for the video. Audacity for audio work. CCE for encoding for DVD (HC-Enc is an outstanding free alternative) with DVDAuthorGUI for menus. RipBot264 for making MP4s for upload to YouTube or for other purposes.

Excellent. I'll be putting them straight to mp4's for online sharing, I won't be worrying about dvds or anything like that so it shouldn't be a big problem.

So after all your experiments whats your verdict on the HVR-1975. Thanks.

[video8pal]

So after all your experiments whats your verdict on the HVR-1975. Thanks.

So after much deliberation, I'm going to try the Canopus (Grasss Valley) ADVC110. I have it ordered but the wait will be about 10 days from today. When I have it tested, I'll go through what I find in comparison to the dvd quality I had done previously.

[VHSRules]

So after all your experiments whats your verdict on the HVR-1975. Thanks.

So after much deliberation, I'm going to try the Canopus (Grasss Valley) ADVC110. I have it ordered but the wait will be about 10 days from today. When I have it tested, I'll go through what I find in comparison to the dvd quality I had done previously.

Ah, very good. The Canopus 110 seems a popular choice.

[VideoDoc]

I have also just gone through the process of deciding how to convert my home Video8 tapes. I compared lossless capture using Hauppauge USB-Live 2 with a Canopus ADVC100 and a Sony MiniDV in pass through mode. You can read the details here. I don't claim to be an expert and I certainly didn't use expensive equipment, but I decided that DV AVI capture using my Sony MiniDV produced the best results. The Canopus produced a yellow color cast which I really didn't like. I don't know if the Canopus 110 produces a similar output. Lossless capture preserved the most detail and had the best color but at the expense of a lot of noise which made the viewing experience difficult to enjoy. Just my two cents.

[Cornucopia]

It would be expected (here at least) that if you did a lossless capture, your intention was to do a good deal of "tweaking", wherein you would reduce the noise (hopefully without reducing as much of the detail). At the expense of time & energy. Rarely would that be the end of it immediately after capture.

Sounds like the ADVC-110 needed readjustment (probably some internal pots).

Scott