Editing without Recoding

[criggs]

I did a search through the forum for this topic, but I was unable to find anything. Perhaps that's due to the fact that I don't know the correct terminology for which to search. Anyway, here goes.

I'm interesting in taking videos and doing simple editing with them, such as deleting portions of a file, cutting and pasting portions into a different part of the file, copying and pasting portions for the purpose of repeating certain sections, etc. etc. And I want to be able to do this without subjecting the material to any re-coding and/or reprocessing. Somewhere in the dim hinterlands of my memory I think I recall that such a process is called native editing, but I'm not sure about that.

Anyway, I have found one editor that can do that with H.264 videos: Total Recorder. Total Recorder is somewhat inflexible, however, for two reasons. First, the file format that seems to be the overwhelming standard these days is mp4. But if I pull any mp4 H.264 video into Total Recorder and attempt some of the editing I described in the previous paragraph, and then re-save the file, the result is not right; the playback is jerky; it looks as if the video has been drained of every other frame. For example, a 30 frames per video movie looks like it's playing back at 15 frames a second. No, it's not slowed down; no, it's not speeded up. It's playing at the right speed, it's just that half the frames are missing.

I did solve that issue. If I use XMedia Recode to do a copy of the original movie into an flv container, then all is well. I can edit, without re-coding or reprocessing, with the flv file in Total Recorder to my heart's content, save and re-save as many times as I like, and the video and audio will remain pristine, first-generation, and will continue to play back properly.

Obviously, however, that effectively means that in most cases I will have to prep the file in XMedia Recode into an flv container before getting down to work. Not a deal-killer, but still an extra step it would be nice to avoid.

Another annoyance which may be unavoidable with first-generation editing of the sort I'm describing (and here's where my ignorance will be showing) is the fact that in Total Recorder, at least, I can only make edits on keyframes, not on every frame. (Once again, my shakiness with the terminology may be leading me astray. As I understand it, most modern video has a true video frame only every few seconds, with the other frames all recorded merely as stripped-down data consisting solely of information on the difference between the current frame and the last true video frame. I've heard these non-video frames sometimes referred to as Delta frames. I've also heard key frames referred to synonymously as i-frames.) This obviously impacts the precision and cleanliness of my edits. In many cases, the edits I can make are so wide of the mark that I'm forced to go down a generation by editing in some standard ap, like Premiere Elements.

A friend of mine told me that there is another editor that can edit first-generation without re-coding or reprocessing with Mpeg-2 material, and that editor is called Mpeg2schnitt.

So my questions are as follows:

1) Are there first-generation edit applications out there that you would recommend?
2) Are there first-generation edit applications out there that can handle a number of different codecs, not just H.264 and/or mpeg-2 or whatever?
3) Are there first-generation edit applications out there that can make edits on any frame and still maintain the original data without re-coding or reprocessing? Or is that a physical impossibility with first-generation editing? Is one always limited, in such cases, to editing on the keyframes or i-frames? (Obviously if your original clip generated video where every video frame is a key frame that would be one solution, but it would mean dealing with humongous video files, and no one makes video files like that anyway.)

I'm confident that, due to my ignorance, particularly in terms of the terminology, much of what I wrote above may be unintelligible to many people. So, in addition to answering any of the questions I asked above, I would appreciate it if folks could also set me straight about the correct terminology for some of the above.

Thanks muchly, and I look forward to reading your feedback very soon!

[godai]

without recoding, videoredo, smart cutter they are very good. frame accurate.

[Cornucopia]

That is not what my understanding of "native editing" is: Native editing refers to being able to directly edit the format of the source without requiring an intermediate "edit-ready" importing/converting stage. It doesn't specify what it does with the OUTPUT.

For that, you have 3* choices:

1. Intraframe-based/GOP-level editors (these include "cutters & joiners") which only cut on Key frames ("I" or "IDR" frames), meaning the cut will only have a specificity precision of 1 GOP (usually ~ 1/2 second), but this outputs quite fast, because it returns the cut frames in their original format (no re-encoding at ALL), so it's really just a regulated, scripted CUT+PASTE of sections of files. HOWEVER, it does require that all the various segments are really using the identical (or very nearly identical) format specs: codec, resolution, framerate, etc (except probably GOP length & bitrate).
2. Smart-rendering" editors, which allow cutting at any point in the clip(s). If those point(s) are not on an I/IDR frame (aka not on the GOP boundary), it will have to render (aka re-encode) the frames UP TO the nearest GOP boundary. The rest, it can do the same as #1. So it is almost as fast as #1, but gives you the flexibility of cutting anywhere. Format requirements are the same, EXCEPT you should know that only certain COMMON (and usually professional or semi-pro) formats are natively supported for smart-rendering (such as DV, MPEG2/HDV, AVC-in-MP4, AVCHD, possibly ProRes, DNxHD, Cineform). Other formats will act like #3 below.
3. Standard rendering ("dumb") editors, which allow cutting at any point in the clip(s). It doesn't care. WHY? Because it RENDERS EVERYTHING to the chosen output format (and/or to the single supported preview format). Render times will be MUCH longer.

Scott

*(There could be a 4th choice: VERY SMART rendering - only the affected delta frames in the affected GOP)

[Selur]

Frame accurate cutting MPEG based files is not possible unless:
a. you only cut on gop boundaries
or
b. your file only consists of key frames
without reencoding (and thus quality degradation unless your target format supports loss-less compression).

Tools like Mpeg2schnitt, Cuttermaran, VideoRedo, TsDoctor, SmartCutter, MKVCutter, Avi Demux, Virtual Dub,.. all support 'smart rendering' (for one or multiple formats) which basically means that they do reencode, but only the GOPs which absolutely need to be reencoded.

Cu Selur

Ps.: Cornucopia was faster.

[netmask56]

Don't forget Womble https://www.videohelp.com/software/MPEG-Video-Wizard-DVD it's frame accurate and easy to use.

[criggs]

Wow! You guys have been busy! Thank you so very, very much. Yes, my head's on overload, but making the choice as to which editor to go with is now the challenge.

And let me say I had no idea that such an animal as smart rendering even existed. Sounds ingenious and the solution to my problems. In all cases, my goal will be to end up with an output that not been re-coded or reprocessed at all (with the exception of material between the keyframes, of course, now that I have the option of frame-accurate editing with smart rendering).

And you guys have now furnished me with a voluminous list of such smart-rendering editors: VideoRedo, Smart Cutter, Mpeg2Schnitt, Cuttermaran, TsDoctor, MKVCutter, AVI Demux, Virtual Dub and Womble.

Now I have to figure out how to somehow pare down that list of nine choices to the one that's best for me. If it helps, while I would like software that handles any and all codecs, my primary need is H.264 editing and my secondary need is Mpeg-2 editing. Does that help narrow down which of the nine options listed would work best for me? Or do they all do both?

[smrpix]

It won't take very long to download and try them. You can eliminate certain options quickly because they won't fulfill one or more of your needs.

Depending on the complexity of your re-arranging you may find all of them fall short and it's worth going down a generation which in HD does not necessarily entail much loss.

You can also add TMPGenc Smart Renderer to your list, like videoredo it is a commercial product.

[criggs]

The option of going down a generation is not permitted me unless absolutely necessary. It's a function of the client for whom I'm doing this stuff, who is a stickler for the highest-possible quality. And the editing is so simple, in most cases, that a more advanced editor, like Premiere Elements, which is currently my edit program of choice for more elaborate stuff, is really not necessary.

Thank you very much for pointing out TMPGenc Smart Renderer as well. Now I have to sit down and do some homework, unless someone has a suggestion regarding some of these ten options that I can probably eliminate.

[criggs]

Well, my need disappeared for several months, so I never followed through on this.

Now, however, my need has re-emerged. I am cutting the cord, so I will be using the Channel Master DVR+ to record TV programs that I want to save. I want to be able to pull in the DVR+'s recordings into my computer and edit them down. The DVR+ makes .ts files and utilizes the mpeg 1/2 video codec.

So I am looking for the best Smart Rendering-capable editor that can handle the largest possible number of video codecs (since I also have a frequent need to do similar editing with h.264 videos). While my primary need is to smart-render-edit h.264 and mpeg 1/2, I'd like a smart render edit ap that can handle a wide-range of video codecs, just so I don't have to start hunting and pecking for new software every time I come across a video that doesn't fit neatly into the h.264 or mpeg 1/2 category.

After a lot of reading and research, I've concluded that the preponderance of consensus out there is that the two best smart render editors are VideoReDo and Smart Renderer 5. First, do most here agree that those are the two best smart render edit aps out there? And, secondly, which do most of you prefer between the two aps, and for what reasons?

Thank you very much. I'm looking forward to making this decision very soon, as my DVR+ is scheduled to be delivered in two days, and I'm eager to get started.

[poisondeathray]

Another option is solveigmm video splitter. It handles more formats than videoredo. I haven't tried tmpg smart renderer so I can't comment on the latter. They all have free trials so play with them before you buy

[criggs]

Another option is solveigmm video splitter. It handles more formats than videoredo. I haven't tried tmpg smart renderer so I can't comment on the latter. They all have free trials so play with them before you buy

Thanks very much for the suggestion. I'm adding that to my option list.

[johnmeyer]

I use VideoRedo and it works well. Also, it has a feature (Quickfix) that can fix files, without re-encoding. My Hauppauge capture device often creates files that have glitches and this little utility often saves the day.

I also use ffmpeg which works well, although is cannot do frame accurate cuts and instead cuts only on GOP boundaries. This is plenty good enough for getting rid of stuff you don't want to keep and for rearranging video into the order you want. I created a little utility that lets me do all my cuts in my NLE, which gives me the ultimate in speed and control, and then transfer this EDL to ffmpeg which does the actual lossless cuts.

So, I use both, and between them I do not feel any need for something else.

[criggs]

I use VideoRedo and it works well.

Thanks for the additional vote of confidence.

I admit that one of my frustrations in my researches has been the discovery that almost no one, it seems, has used more than one or two of these. For example, I did a google search for discussions which analyzed and reported on both Smart Renderer 5 and VideoReDo and, somewhat to my disappointment, it does not appear to exist. Apparently those who have achieved good results with VideoReDo have not tried Smart Renderer 5, and those who have achieved good results with Smart Renderer 5 have not tried VideoReDo. So there's almost no comparative lit focusing on those two aps. Hard to believe, but it seems everyone has tried or uses only one but not the other. So the comparative evaluation that I'm looking for may be impossible to obtain.

Obviously I'm hoping that someone will step up in the next few hours to prove me wrong and report on their experiences with BOTH aps.

[qz3fwd]

Another option is solveigmm video splitter. It handles more formats than videoredo. I haven't tried tmpg smart renderer so I can't comment on the latter. They all have free trials so play with them before you buy

Thanks very much for the suggestion. I'm adding that to my option list.

1. VideoReDo is basically king in this regards.
2. TMPGEnc MPEG Smart Renderer 5 is very good and also has a commercial candidate detector optional plugin
3. SolveigMM Pro is comparable to VRD with additional codec capabilities and less stability.
I have all 3 and VRD is my workhorse.

[criggs]

[QUOTE=qz3fwd;2467832]

1. VideoReDo is basically king in this regards.
2. TMPGEnc MPEG Smart Renderer 5 is very good and also has a commercial candidate detector optional plugin
3. SolveigMM Pro is comparable to VRD with additional codec capabilities and less stability.
I have all 3 and VRD is my workhorse.

If I understand you correctly, you prefer VRD to Smart Renderer 5. Could you elaborate on why that is, please?

I also gather that you view Solveig as a promising and ambitious attempt but, because of its lesser stability, basically an also-ran in comparison to the other two.

[qz3fwd]

I use VideoRedo and it works well.

Thanks for the additional vote of confidence.

I admit that one of my frustrations in my researches has been the discovery that almost no one, it seems, has used more than one or two of these. For example, I did a google search for discussions which analyzed and reported on both Smart Renderer 5 and VideoReDo and, somewhat to my disappointment, it does not appear to exist. Apparently those who have achieved good results with VideoReDo have not tried Smart Renderer 5, and those who have achieved good results with Smart Renderer 5 have not tried VideoReDo. So there's almost no comparative lit focusing on those two aps. Hard to believe, but it seems everyone has tried or uses only one but not the other. So the comparative evaluation that I'm looking for may be impossible to obtain.

Obviously I'm hoping that someone will step up in the next few hours to prove me wrong and report on their experiences with BOTH aps.

Well-YOU could install the trials for both and make your own determination as to which suits your needs best by actually using them both with the same source material. Both are fairly straightforward to use.

[criggs]

Well-YOU could install the trials for both and make your own determination as to which suits your needs best by actually using them both with the same source material. Both are fairly straightforward to use.

I think that makes sense, yes, and thanks for the suggestion; I may do that. I'd still be curious, however, why you appear to have a slight preference for VRD over Smart Renderer; thanks!!

[usually_quiet]

VideoReDo TV Suite 5 and Cypheros TSDoctor have features that make them better choices for cutting transport stream recordings from over-the-air DVRs, PC TV tuners, and some capture devices which hardware encode. OTA recordings in particular often contain timing errors and transmission errors that other smart-rendering editors are are unable to deal with. I use VideoReDo TV Suite 5. It corrects timing errors in the stream and can add or remove frames to keep audio and video in sync when some of the frames in the recording are missing/corrupted. I haven't tried Cypheros TSDoctor, but it is supposed to work similarly.

[criggs]

VideoReDo TV Suite 5...[has] features that make [it a] better choice...for cutting transport stream recordings from over-the-air DVRs, PC TV tuners, and some capture devices which hardware encode. OTA recordings in particular often contain timing errors and transmission errors that other smart-rendering editors are are unable to deal with. I use VideoReDo TV Suite 5. It corrects timing errors in the stream and can add or remove frames to keep audio and video in sync when some of the frames in the recording are missing/corrupted.

Thanks for this info; very pertinent to the reasons why I need software like this, so I appreciate it.

What about Smart Renderer 5? Does it have a similar capability of dealing with timing errors and transmission errors?

[qz3fwd]

VideoReDo TV Suite 5...[has] features that make [it a] better choice...for cutting transport stream recordings from over-the-air DVRs, PC TV tuners, and some capture devices which hardware encode. OTA recordings in particular often contain timing errors and transmission errors that other smart-rendering editors are are unable to deal with. I use VideoReDo TV Suite 5. It corrects timing errors in the stream and can add or remove frames to keep audio and video in sync when some of the frames in the recording are missing/corrupted.

Thanks for this info; very pertinent to the reasons why I need software like this, so I appreciate it.

What about Smart Renderer 5? Does it have a similar capability of dealing with timing errors and transmission errors?

Yes-SM5 works perfectly fine with TS's. I prefer VRD because (1) I have been using it for ~8 years, and (2) SM5 is laid out in multiple dialogs, and seems a bit cluttered compared to VRD.

[criggs]

SM5 works perfectly fine with TS's. I prefer VRD because (1) I have been using it for ~8 years, and (2) SM5 is laid out in multiple dialogs, and seems a bit cluttered compared to VRD.

Thank you very much for the specificity in the above. This is precisely the kind of comparative statements I'm looking, so I appreciate that!

I also get the feeling that VideoReDo, because of the fact that it's been around for a longer time than Smart Renderer 5, is a more mature product, that it has been more meticulously modified and improved over the years, in no small part due to user input, than Smart Renderer 5. Or would my impression in that regard be erroneous?

Which sort of raises the question as to why Smart Renderer 5 entered this particular marketplace. Clearly they have a good product; since it is not clearly an improvement over VideoReDo, that begs the question as to who their target customer is. That is probably a multi-layered question that requires a rather complex answer admittedly.

[criggs]

1. VideoReDo is basically king in this regards.
2. TMPGEnc MPEG Smart Renderer 5 is very good and also has a commercial candidate detector optional plugin

I just went to the VideoReDo 90% convinced I would be trying that out first on a free trial basis.

Which is when I discovered that the version that can handle both h.264 and mpeg 1/2 is not $50, as I first thought, but actually $96.

So I probably owe it to myself to try the cheaper $70 Smart Renderer 5 ap first. Who knows? If I'm happy with the cheaper SR 5, there may be no need for me to try the VideoReDo ap. So I think that's what I'll do.

[johnmeyer]

Everyone's budget is different, but the $26 doesn't seem like enough of an increase to settle for a lesser application. If I were you, I'd try both free trials.

I don't know Smart Renderer (never heard of it until this thread), but VideoRedo has been around for years and has been revised many times. I've dealt with their tech support quite a bit since I first bought it in January 2012, and they are very responsive and quite good. For me, that counts for a lot, and I'll gladly pay more money to get help from people who care.

I'm not saying that the other people don't care, only that I know for sure that the VideoRedo people do.

[criggs]

I don't know Smart Renderer (never heard of it until this thread), but VideoRedo has been around for years and has been revised many times. I've dealt with their tech support quite a bit since I first bought it in January 2012, and they are very responsive and quite good. For me, that counts for a lot, and I'll gladly pay more money to get help from people who care. I'm not saying that the other people don't care, only that I know for sure that the VideoRedo people do.

You make an excellent point. However the fact remains that those who know both aps, both VRD and SR 5, apparently feel that the cheaper Smart Renderer is pretty much as good as the more expensive VRD. The only person who's posted here who knows both aps, qz3fwd, reports that, while VRD has a slight edge, the two are comparable. So, barring specific reports to the contrary, such as SR 5's support folks being really poor or something like that, I see the arguments as still weighing slightly more heavily on the SR 5 side.

Don't misunderstand me however; if someone were to weigh in with some significant and disturbing information about SR 5, such as that their support is terrible or that their ap frequently hangs or crashes, I am certainly open to changing my mind, since I'm largely ignorant in this area and significantly lack education in that regard. However, for now, SR 5 seems to have a slight edge in terms of performance-per-dollar. (Obviously, if I start bumping into problems with SR 5's free trial, I would take a second look at VRD's free trial.)

[qz3fwd]

Another thread which may be of interest comparing VRD and SVS:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/368997-SolveigMM-Video-Splitter-vs-VideoRedo-TVSuit...ect-H264-MPEG2

BTW-Dan from VRD is very active on their forum, the TivoCommunity forum, and I think the HdHomeRun forum. He is a programmer working on VRD and is very responsive to customer requests....

[qz3fwd]

1 nice feature added in SVS6 is the ability to add multiple video tracks onto the timeline from the bin.

[usually_quiet]

I just went to the VideoReDo 90% convinced I would be trying that out first on a free trial basis.

Which is when I discovered that the version that can handle both h.264 and mpeg 1/2 is not $50, as I first thought, but actually $96.

So I probably owe it to myself to try the cheaper $70 Smart Renderer 5 ap first. Who knows? If I'm happy with the cheaper SR 5, there may be no need for me to try the VideoReDo ap. So I think that's what I'll do.

VideoReDo Plus ($50) works well enough for over-the-air. I used it for several years before upgrading to VideoReDo TV Suite, which I did primarily because I needed to edit H.264 transport streams from a capture device as well. Now I need it for editing H.264 TS files from a CableCARD tuner. (My cable service provider has switched most HD channels from MPEG-2 to H.264.)

[criggs]

VideoReDo Plus ($50) works well enough for over-the-air.

Oh, I don't doubt it. But, while my need is not so immediate, I've been meaning to get a frame-accurate smart-render editor for h.264 for some time now. Since I now have this immediate need for an mpeg 1/2 editor, I see no reason not to kill two birds with one stone and address my h.264 need as well. If I go with the $50 version, that still leaves me unprotected on h.264 videos, other than my one GOP editor, Total Recorder, which does not do smart-render or frame-accurate editing. Which is why I've figured I might as well cover both my needs with the cheaper alternative and see how that free trial works out.

[johns0]

criggs-I deleted your other post,just continue here.

[usually_quiet]

VideoReDo Plus ($50) works well enough for over-the-air.

Oh, I don't doubt it. But, while my need is not so immediate, I've been meaning to get a frame-accurate smart-render editor for h.264 for some time now. Since I now have this immediate need for an mpeg 1/2 editor, I see no reason not to kill two birds with one stone and address my h.264 need as well. If I go with the $50 version, that still leaves me unprotected on h.264 videos, other than my one GOP editor, Total Recorder, which does not do smart-render or frame-accurate editing. Which is why I've figured I might as well cover both my needs with the cheaper alternative and see how that free trial works out.

If possible you should test TMPGEnc MPEG Smart Renderer for editing a recording with obvious glitches before making a decision.

I tried a few smart-rendering editors, including TMPGEnc MPEG Smart Renderer, before settling on VideoReDo Plus for editing recordings from over-the-air sources. With the other editors I tried, one small glitch in the recording either caused the audio and video to go out of sync in the edited file, or caused the editor to stop exporting the file at the glitch.