Use Virtual Dub to edit / cut by frame numerically

[loninappleton]

" Use VirtualDub's Smart Rendering feature to re-encode only cut GOPs."

I've been meaning to ask about this.

Could not find smart rendering in Vdub. I do not know what a GOP is.

Please explain how to use smart rendering -- wherever it is.

[jagabo]

High compression codecs like MPEG 2, Divx and h.264 get a large part of their compression by not repeating parts of the picture that don't change from frame to frame. They will start with a frame that encodes an entire picture, a keyframe. Then for the next several frames will only encode the changes from frame to frame, called predicted frames. Eventually the codec will use another keyframe followed by more predicted frames based on that new keyframe.

For example, in a talking head shot, maybe on the speakers lips are moving. The codec will start by encoding frame 1 in its entirety (a keyframe) much like a JPEG image. Then in the next frame only the speakers lips have moved. So the codec says "frame 2 is exactly the same as frame 1, just change this small area (the lips)". Then at frame 3 it will say "this frame is the same as frame 2, just change this small area... (the lips again). It's actually much more complicated than this because predicted frames can reference both prior and later frames, can reference more than other frame, and can include motion vectors (move this bunch of pixels from location X,Y in frame N to location X',Y' in frame M).

A keyframe and all its predicted frames is called a Group Of Pictures, or GOP.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_of_pictures

A frame within the GOP cannot be reconstructed without first decompressing its I frame then decompressing all the frames between that I frame and desired frame. GOPs can range from a single frame to hundreds, even thousands of frames. If you remove the I frame from a GOP the rest of the frames of that GOP cannot be reconstructed.

Some editors only allow you to cut on keyframes (VirtualDub in Direct Stream Copy mode). Others will allow cuts on any frame but will reencode the entire video (VirtualDub in Fast Recompress, Normal Recompress, or Full Processing modes). "Smart" editors allow frame accurate cuts but will only reencode cut GOPs; uncut GOPs are just copied from the input file to the output file (VirtualDub with Smart Rendering enabled).

VirtualDubMod is based on a very old version of VirtualDub that does not have Smart Rendering.

[loninappleton]

If MediaInfo can properly read one of my edits but Auto Gordian Knot gives an unrecognized file type
when attempting to reduce the size, what audio type should I stick with? Or is it an audio file type that is the problem.

I've begun re-edit of the part two under discussion since it was apparently botched or unusable.

A big question for me is: when is it best to make an edit to simply cut a few minutes off of the
beginning of the file? Before audio processing or after within the smaller file size?

This part two is a stand alone file, not one edited on the fly.

I will give more details as I can. And I know working this way with old tools is not very smooth.

[jagabo]

when is it best to make an edit to simply cut a few minutes off of the
beginning of the file? Before audio processing or after within the smaller file size?

If you're making a smaller file you're probably using a long GOP codec. It's best to cut/paste edit before compressing.

[hello_hello]

If MediaInfo can properly read one of my edits but Auto Gordian Knot gives an unrecognized file type
when attempting to reduce the size, what audio type should I stick with? Or is it an audio file type that is the problem.

Is the output file an AVI after editing? What video format/codec are you using for the edited AVIs?
AutoGK needs to decode AVIs via directshow, so you need an appropriate directshow codec installed. If you have ffdshow installed you probably just need to enable the appropriate codec in the ffdshow video decoder configuration. That's the directshow decoder configuration and not the vfw decoder configuration. The shortcut to it in the start menu probably has a red icon.
If AutoGK can open the AVIs in question before you edit them, but not after, it's probably not a decoder problem.

[hello_hello]

If you don't use direct stream copy, you'll be re-encoding the video. Or outputting uncompressed video.
If you change encoder settings, ie to direct stream copy, you can make those settings the defaults. Switch to direct steam copy and use the File/Save Processing Settings menu. Save the file to the same folder as VirtualDub, and call it "default.vcf". Next time you open VirtualDub, direct stream copy should already be selected.

I'm just posting back to correct the above info a little for anyone who might read this thread. It applies to VirtualDub, not VirtualDubMod.

Saving your settings via a vcf file works as I described. Getting VirtualDub to automatically use it, doesn't. You need to tell it to use it, probably by modifying a shortcut that opens it. To save some typing, here's what a shortcut to open VirtualDub with the settings saved to a "default.vcf" file would look like. It shows the switch that needs to be added. I created this shortcut so long ago, I forgot it was required.

[loninappleton]

Thanks for the clarification.

I'm continuing on the project today. Using the original file I was better able to reduce the size.
It has to be snipped again.

AGK has made the usual temp file of demuxed audio. I will attempt to do my leveling and only then trim the beginning.

In between I should view the piece to make sure things are in sync as well.

[loninappleton]

A new mystery.

The sample edits I have made give video with no audio. This I can only trace to changing
the Direct Stream setting in VirtualDubMod 1.5.... etc.

I've checked my player. There's just no audio in these current samples.
Is there a setting that needs to be changed? If so I cannot find it.

Also I'm having difficulty just monitoring where I need to edit. A simple playback function that I can watch does not seem to be available on the various buttons.

In other words, Do I have to view the file in full motion in something else just to get an exact frame cut?

[jagabo]

Do I have to view the file in full motion in something else just to get an exact frame cut?

Left and Right arrow keys.

Why are you using VirtualDubMod? Its only advantage is that it can handle multiple audio tracks. Otherwise it's very old and outdated. Use VirtualDub instead.

[loninappleton]

Ok.

I have Vdub 1.7 on here. How do I set up the streamslist and so forth?

Maybe too early for that.

Yes I have played with the left and right arrow keys in VdubMod. Very herky jerky and only get still frame. I don't think it's a graphics problem with my hardware (which is old and uses on board video.)

I will run it through the other prog. and start over. I don't mind starting over. But there seems no cure for the hand motion problems etc that go with age.

As an example I had no problem tailoring my work in the editing function of the old DVD Shrink.
Yes, someone had to tell me about editing in that but once it was found it worked fine.

Could be this piece that is a screen cap has some unusual characteristics.


But I've not seen smooth playback. Also in some keystrokes in VdubMod the screen is blank. I don't know if something is trying 'catch up' or what. A layout like DVD Shrink would fix all this.

[jagabo]

It sounds like your trying to edit a video with long GOPs.

[loninappleton]

I'm going back through the thread again because my retention is not very good.

here is a quote from above about GOPs

In Direct Stream Copy mode you don't get frame accurate edits with inter-frame codecs. Some codecs may go 10 seconds or more between key frames. Use VirtualDub's Smart Rendering feature to re-encode only cut GOPs.

This is in Virtual Dbu current edition as I understand it, not Virtual Dub Mod.

Is this correct? It may be that I've been looking for Smart Rendering in the wrong program.

That's one question.

Another is my effort to use an editing function in DVD Shrink or the equivalent program layout. DVDShrink works with the TS vob file set from a disk. It can also load from an HD folder. Can this troublesome AVI (called Part Two here) be unpacked to a folder and loaded into DVD Shrink?

For the 'no sound problem' I'm going to do something quick as a test in Virtual Dub 1.7 and see if I can playback any video with audio in that.

[loninappleton]

If you don't use direct stream copy, you'll be re-encoding the video. Or outputting uncompressed video.
If you change encoder settings, ie to direct stream copy, you can make those settings the defaults. Switch to direct steam copy and use the File/Save Processing Settings menu. Save the file to the same folder as VirtualDub, and call it "default.vcf". Next time you open VirtualDub, direct stream copy should already be selected.

I'm just posting back to correct the above info a little for anyone who might read this thread. It applies to VirtualDub, not VirtualDubMod.

Saving your settings via a vcf file works as I described. Getting VirtualDub to automatically use it, doesn't. You need to tell it to use it, probably by modifying a shortcut that opens it. To save some typing, here's what a shortcut to open VirtualDub with the settings saved to a "default.vcf" file would look like. It shows the switch that needs to be added. I created this shortcut so long ago, I forgot it was required.


[Attachment 32894 - Click to enlarge]

I'm looking at the script now that we are on the same Virtual Dub program-- not Mod.
What is the "s" for in the script just after the slash going to default.vcf?

[loninappleton]

My best analysis is that any of the snipped versions of the file called Part Two playback no audio regardless of the Virtual Dub program version used. It's just not there for playback.

And I made a snip and test of an older AVI in Vdub 1.7, saved it and it played back in VLC. It also had no
delay gaps or anything I could detect as being out of sync.

Perhaps the curent file which is 25 Fps comes from PAL or some other incongruity.

A reminder that I do have a Part One where I did all the things I do to the audio and resized. Perhaps that second piece lacks a header of some sort?

I'm just guessing and looking for answers.

[hello_hello]

In Direct Stream Copy mode you don't get frame accurate edits with inter-frame codecs. Some codecs may go 10 seconds or more between key frames. Use VirtualDub's Smart Rendering feature to re-encode only cut GOPs.

This is in Virtual Dbu current edition as I understand it, not Virtual Dub Mod.

Is this correct? It may be that I've been looking for Smart Rendering in the wrong program.

Only VirtualDub has the smart rendering feature, but I've never used it myself. If it's accurate enough, it's better to set the edit points using the keyframe button on the navigation bar. If you cut on a keyframe you don't need smart rendering, but it'd depend if the keyframes are in the right places. If the original video is lossless (I can't remember the format it's in) then keyframes probably won't be an issue (every frame is a keyframe).

If you were to use another program for re-encoding, one that lets you modify the Avisynth scripts it creates (ie MeGUI) you could probably bypass the whole VirtualDub editing process. That's assuming after editing you'll definitely be re-encoding. Instead of editing an AVI, then re-encoding the edited version, you could create a script to re-encode it, but just re-encoding the frames you want. That way, it doesn't matter if you don't edit on a keyframe.
Although MeGUI has an editor with a preview that'll add edits to a script for you. Using it isn't any harder than using VirtualDub for editing. Depending on the file type MeGUI can extract the audio from the original file for you (or you can do it yourself) and the editor will save a "cuts file" for the Audio Cutter to use that'll edit the audio to match the video. Then you could run that through Levelator.

Can this troublesome AVI (called Part Two here) be unpacked to a folder and loaded into DVD Shrink?

No. DVDShrink will only open DVD video.

I'm looking at the script now that we are on the same Virtual Dub program-- not Mod.
What is the "s" for in the script just after the slash going to default.vcf?

s = script. It's the switch to tell VirtualDub to load a script when it opens, and in my previous example the script would be default.vcf
So you could create the default.vcf file, Save it to the VirtualDub folder, then modify the Target in the shortcut you use to open VirtualDub to look something like this:
"C:\Program Files\VirtualDub\VirtualDub.exe" /s"default.vcf"
Obviously you'd leave the path set to the actual location of VirtualDub if it's different. Just add the part in blue to the end of what's already in the Target box.

It's almost impossible to guess what's happening when it comes to your "missing" audio without seeing a sample.

[loninappleton]

I located one of the original Part Two in the largest size avi.
The file name tells me the leveling part is done.

I made what could be a final snip which is more accurate and it looks good.

But errors crop up in the attempt to reduce size. The original content is 1280x720 (in Media Info.)

That's hi def in my usage. The tools just aren't the same as working with mkv to which I'm trying to transition.

Am I wrong in thinking only AGK can reduce my file size?

And with that, how close to 50% can I get?

[loninappleton]

One other thing. Apparently the latest Virtual Dub at Videohelp is 1.10.5 and updated to 2014.

This 1.7 I'm using Virtual Dub modplus doesn't even show up on the Videohelp software list.

It's sounding like babble to me as well. Sometime back I got the 1.7. It was not called modplus on its header except in some file description.

If I go ahead and get rid of these "mods," what dependencies or codecs should be part of a new installation?

Here we are talking about Virtual Dub 1.10.4/1.10.5 portable circa 2014 as listed at Videohelp.

Looks like back to the future to me.

[jagabo]

(smart rendering) This is in Virtual Dbu current edition as I understand it, not Virtual Dub Mod.

Is this correct?

Yes, smart rendering was added to VirtualDub a few years ago. VirtualDubMod does not have the feature.


[Attachment 32949 - Click to enlarge]

Am I wrong in thinking only AGK can reduce my file size?

Yes, you are wrong. There are many programs that can reduce the size of video files by recompressing them to lower bitrates.

And with that, how close to 50% can I get?

You can go as low as you want. The issue is how much quality you will lose.

[loninappleton]

Ok for the news on what AGK can't do. What should I move to with the good but large usable file I have?

MeGUI or other free tools?

[loninappleton]

Today I have made some small progress but with a long way to go.

1.) I downloaded and installed the Virtual Dub 1.10.4 AMD-64.

2.) Made a shortcut on the desktop for that.

3.) I put the default.vcf in the program directory of this Virtual dub

4.) The string I have entered into the shortcut shows to be:

C:\Users\lon\Desktop\VirtualDub-1.10.4-AMD64\vdub64.exe+/s"default.vcf"

and produced an error. It could be the plus sign after .exe and I don't know where it came from.

Please clarify the syntax for the paths you see above and any errors noted in this install.

I also moved Huffy uv to the 'plugins directory' of this Virtual Dub 1.10.4 AMD64

[jagabo]

1.) I downloaded and installed the Virtual Dub 1.10.4 AMD-64.

Keep in mind that 64 bit VirtualDub will require 64 bit filters and many third party filters are not available in 64 bit versions. If your going to use AviSynth it will also require 64 bit AviSynth and 64 bit AviSynth filters. Again, many third party filter are not available in 64 bit versions. 64 bit AviSyth is also less stable than 32 bit AviSynth.

C:\Users\lon\Desktop\VirtualDub-1.10.4-AMD64\vdub64.exe+/s"default.vcf"

and produced an error. It could be the plus sign after .exe and I don't know where it came from.

Take the + out and replace it with a space. Installing VirtualDub on your desktop will work but it's an unusual place to put it. I don't have the most up to date 64 bit version -- is vdub64.exe the right program? On mine that's the command line version. The GUI version is veedub64.exe. I believe .VCF is the correct extension for 64 bit VirtualDub scripts, but with 32 bit VirtualDub it's .VDSCRIPT.

I also moved Huffy uv to the 'plugins directory' of this Virtual Dub 1.10.4 AMD64

That's not how you install VFW codecs. The codec should have come with an INF for installation. Try right clicking on the INF file and selecting Install. If that doesn't work (the codec doesn't appear in VirtualDub) you may have to use this procedure:

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/271712-Lame-MP3-Encoder-on-Vista-x64#1723154

As with filters, you need a 64 bit codecs for use with 64 bit VirtualDub.

[loninappleton]

@jagabo,

Well if I can't get there from here, I might as well unload this Virtual Dub 64 AMD,
I thought it would be a good fit with Win7 64 and the AMD Phenom processor which has had a bios upgrade a while back (for SSD compatibility-- I never got one yet though.)

And yes I caught the error of the .exe after writing. Incredible the amount of traps to fall into. The correct shortcut exe file is called Veedub.... with the two 'e's. I'll try it with the space.

Again, I've tried to construct these shortcut strings in the past and fallen into the same mysterious and unforgiving errors. What about the position of the quotation marks?

We can get into all the dependencies for Veedub x86 after this much is done.

I will review your Huffy instructions. It's all rote for me because I don't know the theory side of doing this.

The Virtual Dub folder is not on the desktop. The shortcut we are trying to edit is.

I can print the other (lower) file path in another message. For now my day is heading to watch some media rather than edit.

[loninappleton]

an Update on this Virtual Dub.

Today I got Virtual Dub 1.10.4 build 35491 downloaded as the zip file.

I put that zip file in the Programs x86 directory of Win7 and extracted it there.

I made a shortcut to the desktop.

Moved the default.vcf to the new 1.10.4 directory.

Edited the shortcut (with a space) as/s"default.vcf" from the previous instruction above.

[note]

With all this shortcut business the casual reader should note that the format is

" " space /s" "

It's highly confusing and hard to read to get right.

This finally seems to have defaulted to direct stream in the 1.10.4 as was my wish.

I also reread the part about codecs. Huffy uv is in its 2.1.1 folder in Vdub 1.10.4 directory. I don't know if it's files are in the right place yet re: plugins.

Also got the UT video codec suite 15.20.exe and ran that in the Vdub master folder.

Recall that Auto Gordian Knot installs a lot of it's own dependcies/codecs at setup. Why all this confusion multiple choice with the Virtual Dub late release?


Advise on any errors you see so far.

[loninappleton]

Today I did the install procedure described above by opening the .inf file for Huffy UV and selecting install
which appears on the drop down.

This was run from the desktop. No errors appeared. How do I check for the correct installation?

That's all I have. I've been working on some HD cleaning procedures.

[jagabo]

Today I did the install procedure described above by opening the .inf file for Huffy UV and selecting install
which appears on the drop down.

This was run from the desktop. No errors appeared. How do I check for the correct installation?

Start VirtualDub. Select Video -> Compression. Look through the list of filters. Do you see huffyuv?

[hello_hello]

If you have ffdshow installed, maybe use that for encoding instead of the official huffyuv codec. ffdshow will appear in the list of codecs as it does in jagabo's screenshot above. When you select it and click on configure, the window that opens looks something like this:



And you can choose the ffmpeg version of huffyuv as the encoder. It supports YV12 video, whereas the official huffyuv does not, as far as I know. The only downside is I don't think the official huffyuv codec can decode the ffmpeg version, so it needs to be decoded with ffdshow instead.



If you have ffdshow installed, there's probably no need to install the official huffyuv codec, unless there's a benefit to using it rather than the ffdshow version that I'm not aware of.

The ffdshow encoder also includes the FFV1 encoder, which is also lossless. It compresses more, but it's also much slower.

Edit: And apparently you need to be careful regarding which version of huffyuv you use if you want to compress RGB. Apparently version 2.2 is broken in respect to RGB. It's probably best to stick with version 2.1.1
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=67121
The ffdshow version of huff doesn't seem to support RGB compression.

[loninappleton]

It seems I have barrier after non- understandable barrier.

I'm looking at the screen shot to select compression but cannot get to it.

I have loaded my .avi and the Video> compression selection is greyed out. I also tried the control key combination which was not fooled-- still no result.

Does this compression window open only when you go to save or what action is required to reveal the option?

I did find something else though: Range wherein I think begins to answer the original question. In other words it indicates a numeric option to edit. I''m in the position of having to inspect the elephant without the other blind men.

[jagabo]

It seems I have barrier after non- understandable barrier.

I'm looking at the screen shot to select compression but cannot get to it.

I have loaded my .avi and the Video> compression selection is greyed out.

LOL. That's because you're in Video -> Direct Stream Copy mode. You have no choice of codecs in that mode because the compressed (or not) video from the source is copied directly to the output file.

I did find something else though: Range wherein I think begins to answer the original question. In other words it indicates a numeric option to edit.

You can use Video -> Range to select a range by frame numbers or times. But you can do the same visually using the slider and the Mark-in and Mark-out tools. Or Edit -> Set Selection Start/End.

[loninappleton]

I will always cop to being the source of the problem.
I'll check this 1.10.4 32bit with one of the other ones just to see what happens.

Is there an alternative site or direct link other than the Videohelp softwares?

[jagabo]

I'll check this 1.10.4 32bit with one of the other ones just to see what happens

You don't need to use 1.10.4. That's just he version I happen have installed on this computer. Those basic features haven't changed in eons. I darkened the background to make my added white text stand out better.