Premiere to HCencoder workflow and Avisynth script?

[kieranvyas]

I have a large project in Premiere Pro CC that I would like to burn to DVD. I have been watching Jeff Bellune's HD2SD tutorial and wanted some extra advice. In Jeff's video his workflow is:

Premiere Pro > Debugmode Frameserver > AVS into Virtualdub > Save using lagarith codec > Back into NLE for mpeg2-DVD export

1) I want to use HCencoder, so my first question is - can I cut out the virtualdub steps and simply frameserve from PP and then import directly into HCencoder using my avisynth script?

2) Secondly, this is the script I'm currently using:

AviSource("signpost.avi")
Spline36Resize(720,576)
Blur(0,0.5)
ColorMatrix(mode="Rec.709->Rec.601",clamp=0)

Should I replace 'Spline35Resize' with Dan Isaac's 'HD2SD' plugin that Jeff Bellune uses in his video? Which is better?

3) Is there anything else I should add or change in my script to prepare my footage for DVD?

Thank you!

[UPDATE]
Premiere is RGB but I selected YUY2 output when using Debugmode Frameserver. My project is 1080p, with a mixture of 25fps and 50fps clips that are mainly progressive but a few are interlaced and therefore de-interlaced within Premiere. The source of all clips is from a camera.

[Skiller]

1) I want to use HCencoder, so my first question is - can I cut out the virtualdub steps and simply frameserve from PP and then import directly into HCencoder using my avisynth script?

Technically, yes, you can. I would not recommend it however because you're most likely going to do a 2-pass encode in HCenc so the whole timeline would have to be rendered twice. Rendering to an intermediate lossless is safer also.

2) Secondly, this is the script I'm currently using:

Script is OK for 1080p25 sources, but for anything else you need additional stuff (!). What are your project's properties?

I don't know what color space Premiere delivers but if it's RGB you will need to add ConvertToYV12().

Should I replace 'Spline35Resize' with Dan Isaac's 'HD2SD' plugin that Jeff Bellune uses in his video? Which is better?

That HD2SD script is quite smart und universal. It's perfect for people who just want to have a good quality conversion without having to learn about every single aspect involved. That being said it uses Spline36Resize at it's core so no, it's not necessarily better.

3) Is there anything else I should add or change in my script to prepare my footage for DVD?

Possibly, depends on the source properties.

[kieranvyas]

I don't know what color space Premiere delivers but if it's RGB you will need to add ConvertToYV12().

Thank you for your response! Premiere is RGB but I selected YUY2 output when using Debugmode Frameserver. My project is 1080p, with a mixture of 25fps and 50fps clips that are mainly progressive but a few are interlaced and therefore de-interlaced within Premiere. The source of all clips is from a camera. Do these properties warrant any changes to my script?

[LMotlow]

I would second skiller's request: what is your source? Is it 25p? What are you using Premiere Pro for? Is the source from a camera? Is it originally a commercial BluRay (commercial PAL BluRay is either 25fps interlaced or 23.976/24fps progressive, and many PAL cameras shoot 25i). I suppose you know that PAL DVD is usually -- I said "usually" -- 25fps interlaced.

Personally I haven't always been too happy with HD2SD results, but almost always do this sort of thing manually in Avisynth. It all depends on the original video. But you haven't given much information about it.

[newpball]

I have a large project in Premiere Pro CC that I would like to burn to DVD. I have been watching Jeff Bellune's HD2SD tutorial and wanted some extra advice. In Jeff's video his workflow is:

Premiere Pro > Debugmode Frameserver > AVS into Virtualdub > Save using lagarith codec > Back into NLE for mpeg2-DVD export

1) I want to use HCencoder, so my first question is - can I cut out the virtualdub steps and simply frameserve from PP and then import directly into HCencoder using my avisynth script?

2) Secondly, this is the script I'm currently using:

AviSource("signpost.avi")
Spline36Resize(720,576)
Blur(0,0.5)
ColorMatrix(mode="Rec.709->Rec.601",clamp=0)

Should I replace 'Spline35Resize' with Dan Isaac's 'HD2SD' plugin that Jeff Bellune uses in his video? Which is better?

3) Is there anything else I should add or change in my script to prepare my footage for DVD?

Thank you!

[UPDATE]
Premiere is RGB but I selected YUY2 output when using Debugmode Frameserver. My project is 1080p, with a mixture of 25fps and 50fps clips that are mainly progressive but a few are interlaced and therefore de-interlaced within Premiere. The source of all clips is from a camera.

First question is do you actually need it?

Why not simply resize in Premiere, premiere does a good job resizing. Color matrix should be handled automatically as well and if not use AE to explicitly go from 709 to 601. Also is there a quality problem you are worried about having Premiere render to MPEG-2? If you use normal bitrates the output should be fine.

By the way Debugmode Frameserver does not seem to work under CC after you installed and used it once you never get the export screen anymore.

Only thing I would recommend to do outside of PP is the deinterlacing, deinterlace with QTGMC using avisynth.

And I assume you ensure your DVD is anamorphic widescreen.

[LMotlow]

Premiere is RGB but I selected YUY2 output when using Debugmode Frameserver. My project is 1080p, with a mixture of 25fps and 50fps clips that are mainly progressive but a few are interlaced and therefore de-interlaced within Premiere. The source of all clips is from a camera. Do these properties warrant any changes to my script?

Certainly.

Your HD source is probably YV12, but you'll have to be more specific about that. What camera was used? Not all cameras encode using the same color matrix.

Once you allow your YUV original to be haphazardly converted to RGB, you start blowing out highlights and have other problems. You should be working with lossless media anyway, which PP can do -- never resize lossy encoded material, and never never never resize interlaced. What are you doing in RGB? If it's color correction, that should be done losslessly as well.

You can't mix progressive and interlaced in the same video. If you make your 25i progressive, the frame rate becomes 50p. You can't mix 25p abd 50p together, and 50p won't work for DVD. You got a problem, dude. There's a way to combine progressive/interlaced in the authoring stage, but it's tricky. But in usual join/edit, you can't mix different structures.

You can work in YUY2 if you want, but DVD is YV12.

Why not simply resize in Premiere, premiere does a good job resizing.

In this case, no. It doesn't. Likely as not, sharp 1080 video needs some form of low pass for downsizing to SD. C'mon, you've been around here long enough to know that.

Only thing I would recommend to do outside of PP is the deinterlacing, deinterlace with QTGMC using avisynth.

For sure. And for DVD it'll have to be re-interlaced.

Also is there a quality problem you are worried about having Premiere render to MPEG-2? If you use normal bitrates the output should be fine.

It'll do, but HCenc is a better MPEG encoder.

And I assume you ensure your DVD is anamorphic widescreen.

Right on. 720x480, 16:9 DAR.

[kieranvyas]

Your HD source is probably YV12, but you'll have to be more specific about that. What camera was used? Not all cameras encode using the same color matrix.

Once you allow your YUV original to be haphazardly converted to RGB, you start blowing out highlights and have other problems. You should be working with lossless media anyway, which PP can do -- never resize lossy encoded material, and never never never resize interlaced. What are you doing in RGB? If it's color correction, that should be done losslessly as well.

You can't mix progressive and interlaced in the same video. If you make your 25i progressive, the frame rate becomes 50p. You can't mix 25p abd 50p together, and 50p won't work for DVD. You got a problem, dude. There's a way to combine progressive/interlaced in the authoring stage, but it's tricky. But in usual join/edit, you can't mix different structures.

You can work in YUY2 if you want, but DVD is YV12.

The DVD is a documentary-style collection of lots of different footage. I know the main camera used was a Canon XA20, but there is also footage from a Panasonic GH3, a Panasonic consumer grade camera and a couple of other professional grade cameras. This is why I have such a mix of footage (unfortunately!). Premiere Pro CC can handle mixed frame rates and interlaced and progressive clips in the same sequence which is why I haven't converted any of my footage beforehand. (Although I have deinterlaced the interlaced clips.) However, exporting from Premiere is simply out of the question.

So I can add a line to my script to convert to YV12?

AviSource("signpost.avi")
ConvertToYV12()
Spline36Resize(720,576)
Blur(0,0.5)
ColorMatrix(mode="Rec.709->Rec.601",clamp=0

How else should I proceed? The majority of footage is probably 50fps but as I say it's mixed (as Premiere can handle mixed frame rates), do I need to address this in my AVS script or can I leave it to be converted to 25p during the encode in HCencoder to mpeg2-DVD?

[Skiller]

The majority of footage is probably 50fps but as I say it's mixed (as Premiere can handle mixed frame rates), do I need to address this in my AVS script or can I leave it to be converted to 25p during the encode in HCencoder to mpeg2-DVD?

So if the majority of the footage was shot in 50p your project properties within Premiere should match that frame rate (does it?), so that the frameserved video out of Premiere is 1920x1080 YUY2 (4:2:2) at 50 fps progressive.

Then you just add the following at the end of your script:

AssumeTFF()
SeparateFields().SelectEvery(4,0,3).Weave()

This takes your 50p frameserved timeline and makes it 25i for DVD (since the majority of the footage is 50p you should avoid 25p and prefer 25i for the smooth motion). Be sure to encode interlaced in HCenc with TFF (Top Field First).

[newpball]

In this case, no. It doesn't. Likely as not, sharp 1080 video needs some form of low pass for downsizing to SD. C'mon, you've been around here long enough to know that.

To know what?

I repeat, Premiere does a good job resizing video!

For sure. And for DVD it'll have to be re-interlaced.

Nope, progressive is fully supported for DVDs!

See this topic where I was completely proven wrong in asserting DVDs do not support progressive:

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/370581-Self-made-DVD-s-from-DVD-recorder-showing-in...es-on-HDTV-why

It'll do, but HCenc is a better MPEG encoder.

It won't make any noticeable difference unless you would take ridiculously low bitrates but that's something quality conscious people would obviously never do.

[Skiller]

Nope, progressive is fully supported for DVDs!

But not at 50 fps, which is what have here, so it has to be re-interlaced (unless, of course, you consider dropping every other frame an option).

It won't make any noticeable difference unless you would take ridiculously low bitrates

I disagree. The crippled version of the Mainconcept encoder that comes with Premiere is easily beaten by HCenc at pretty much any bitrate, although it proably "does the job good enough" for most people.
Isn't it you who is always after the best quality? So I wonder why you're so keen on disregarding the excellent HCenc.

[newpball]

I disagree. The crippled version of the Mainconcept encoder that comes with Premiere is easily beaten by HCenc at pretty much any bitrate.

Would you care to point me to some comparisons using good bitrates that you undoubtedly must have that shows the clear differences?

I have no problem to stand corrected when I am wrong.

[Skiller]

Would you care to point me to some comparisons using good bitrates that you undoubtedly must have that shows the clear differences?

There is a thread where this was an issue not long ago:

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/371163-Very-poor-quality-export-from-Premiere-Pro-u...mpeg2-DVD-HELP!!

[newpball]

Would you care to point me to some comparisons using good bitrates that you undoubtedly must have that shows the clear differences?

There is a thread where this was an issue not long ago:

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/371163-Very-poor-quality-export-from-Premiere-Pro-u...mpeg2-DVD-HELP!!

I know but it was hardly conclusive.

[smrpix]

However, exporting from Premiere is simply out of the question.

You may want to re-think that.

So I can add a line to my script to convert to YV12?

AviSource("signpost.avi")
ConvertToYV12()
Spline36Resize(720,576)
Blur(0,0.5)
ColorMatrix(mode="Rec.709->Rec.601",clamp=0

How else should I proceed? The majority of footage is probably 50fps but as I say it's mixed (as Premiere can handle mixed frame rates), do I need to address this in my AVS script or can I leave it to be converted to 25p during the encode in HCencoder to mpeg2-DVD?

In this case, you are still effectively exporting from Premiere. Premiere is still doing much of the resizing and frame rate changes.

For "best" results you need to treat each non-1080/50p shot separately outside of Premiere and then replace it in your timeline.

At that point you can decide whether HCEnc is "better enough" to be worth the hassle.

[kieranvyas]

Would you care to point me to some comparisons using good bitrates that you undoubtedly must have that shows the clear differences?

There is a thread where this was an issue not long ago:

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/371163-Very-poor-quality-export-from-Premiere-Pro-u...mpeg2-DVD-HELP!!

I have to agree, the quality I have been getting out of HCencoder is vastly superior to Premiere Pro.

However, I have been advised before that if my footage is progressive (which MOST of it is) that I should stick to progressive for the DVD? Would you advise against this then?

You may want to re-think that.

In this case, you are still effectively exporting from Premiere. Premiere is still doing much of the resizing and frame rate changes.

I understand that Premiere is still handling the frame rate changes, but avisynth is surely handling the resizing here?

[newpball]

I understand that Premiere is still handling the frame rate changes, but avisynth is surely handling the resizing here?

I would turn that around, resizing in Premiere is just fine (obviously you would check "Render at Maximum Depth" and "Use Maximum Render Quality") but framerate conversions (unless it is trivial I would leave for AE or avisynth and deinterlacing I would leave for avisynth as well.

[poisondeathray]

Premiere doesn't handle interlace resizing very well (this has been conclusively established and is well known, including on the adobe forums). It does ok for progressive resizing

I recommend the digital intermediate route as well. Frameserving is hit and miss now with PP - sometimes it works, sometimes doesn't work at all, sometimes you get glitches, sometimes audio problems. Advanced frameserver works better for some people than DMFS. The *not knowing* is the killer part IMO. Do you go frame by frame to double check ? Forget about it, it's not worth the headache - just do it the 100% sure method

Other reasons - using a DI is faster overall for multipass encoding (especially if you have slow filters) ; utility - from that 1 intermediate "master", you can generate other destination formats like BD, for web, for specific devices etc... without having to render it again from premiere. You can archive that edited "master"

[smrpix]

I understand that Premiere is still handling the frame rate changes, but avisynth is surely handling the resizing here?

Sorry, bit of a brain-freeze here. When I saw your list of cameras I mistook one for SD. As long as everything's 1080 you are correct, Premiere is not resizing.

[newpball]

Frameserving is hit and miss now with PP - sometimes it works, sometimes doesn't work at all, sometimes you get glitches, sometimes audio problems. Advanced frameserver works better for some people than DMFS.

Can't get either to work for PP CC 2014.

So can we confirm that people have this actually working for the current PP version?

[kieranvyas]

So can we confirm that people have this actually working for the current PP version?

Frameserver is seemingly working fine for me in Premiere Pro CC 2014. The export window doesn't reopen once I've used it, but then I exit Premiere and open it again and everything works fine!

Premiere doesn't handle interlace resizing very well (this has been conclusively established and is well known, including on the adobe forums). It does ok for progressive resizing

I recommend the digital intermediate route as well. Frameserving is hit and miss now with PP - sometimes it works, sometimes doesn't work at all, sometimes you get glitches, sometimes audio problems. Advanced frameserver works better for some people than DMFS. The *not knowing* is the killer part IMO. Do you go frame by frame to double check ? Forget about it, it's not worth the headache - just do it the 100% sure method

Ok this sounds like a winner! Please could you tell me a little more about what workflow I might use on a 'digital intermediate route', I am not familiar with it?

[poisondeathray]

Some people reportedly have it working for CC, some people have it working with advanced frameserver but not DMFS. Many people have glitches or doesn't work at all, some people cant' get it to work with either frameserver

I think the OP has DMFS working, or did some tests at least, so it appears he is one of the few that has it working at least partially

Ok this sounds like a winner! Please could you tell me a little more about what workflow I might use on a 'digital intermediate route', I am not familiar with it?

It' s just an exported intermediate file, either lossless (e.g. lagarith, ut video, magic yuv) , or near lossless (e.g. cineform, dnxhd, or prores - since you were originally on a mac). The "negative" is lots of HDD space required, because of the high bitrates. But if you were going to keep an "edited master" anyways, that point is moot.

[kieranvyas]

It' s just an exported intermediate file, either lossless (e.g. lagarith, ut video, magic yuv) , or near lossless (e.g. cineform, dnxhd, or prores - since you were originally on a mac). The "negative" is lots of HDD space required, because of the high bitrates

Oh I see!!! Ok, well if that's the better option... any approximation on just how much space we are talking.. my project is 1hr25 long? I have about 1.7TB free

[poisondeathray]

Step back for a second - I don't know if you missed Skiller's comment, but you should be using a 1080p50 sequence setting and export. The reason is you can always "dumb it down" for other destination formats later (like resizing, reducing the frame rate, interlacing for SD DVD or SD BD), but you cannot get back that information later if you 've already discarded it . Since at least some (you said most) of the data is 1080p50, that's what you should be using. That makes even more sense since you said this was "documentary" style. The general rule of thumb is to keep everything as highest quality as possible all the way through until you have to "dumb it down" for various destination formats

The HDD space required depends on the content. Both lossless and lossy compression will vary. If you have high complexity content, then filesizes will be larger. But rough ballpark 1080p50 typical bitrates for cineform "medium" , or prores HQ might be ~200-300 Mbit/s. So about 120-180 GB for 1hr25m . Lossless will roughly double that (within lossless compression, there are higher and lower compression alternatives, eg. lagarith is intraframe and produces results higher in compression, ut video would be lower in compression but faster especially for decoding)

[Skiller]

However, I have been advised before that if my footage is progressive (which MOST of it is) that I should stick to progressive for the DVD? Would you advise against this then?

Yes, I do. See, your exported (or frameserved) timeline is 50p. You cannot put 50p on a DVD, so your only option to keep the fluid motion of the 50p original is to interlace it into 25 interlaced frames per second (containing 50 fields per second). It'll look perfectly fine – deinterlacers in TVs and DVD/BD players these days are good and you get to keep the smooth motion which is a huge plus.
The only other option would be to drop every other frame of the 50p original and be left with 25p which can indeed be put on DVD, but trust me it would most likely be uncomfortable to watch unless the video was shot in very specific ways such as a 180 degree shutter angle and avoiding of pans and fast motion.

[kieranvyas]

Step back for a second - I don't know if you missed Skiller's comment, but you should be using a 1080p50 sequence setting and export.

OK that's fine! And thanks for that info on HDD space! My sequence is 1080p50 anyway, so that's fine, I think I am going to export using the lagalith codec and then bring it straight into HCencoder with my AVS script.

Yes, I do. See, your exported (or frameserved) timeline is 50p. You cannot put 50p on a DVD, so your only option to keep the fluid motion of the 50p original is to interlace it into 25 interlaced frames per second (containing 50 fields per second). It'll look perfectly fine – deinterlacers in TVs and DVD/BD players these days are good and you get to keep the smooth motion which is a huge plus.

That makes a lot of sense. I'll add the interlace code to my script then!

Premiere Pro > Lossless export (lagarith) >

AviSource("signpost.avi")
ConvertToYV12()
Spline36Resize(720,576)
Blur(0,0.5)
ColorMatrix(mode="Rec.709->Rec.601",clamp=0)
AssumeTFF().SeparateFields().SelectEvery(4, 0, 3).Weave()

> HCencoder

[_Al_]

one thing about frame server, ..., as soon as you have different formats on timeline, frame serving in this case is not 100% effective, because Premiere has to fix certain clips before export, but you know about that,

the thing is to batch convert those clips before editing to desired properties in lossless format and load it on Premiere's timeline. But I understand, it could be very chaotic and one has to sort things very carefully, it is quite annoying. So you do it as you do now. It would be interesting to actually know what is Premiere doing changing interlace to double frame rate, like in your case, during frame serving, is it using Yadif or something else? Or what it is doing changing 25p to 50p, does it duplicate frames ot does it blend? It might let you choose if it is like in Vegas...

[kieranvyas]

Yes, I do. See, your exported (or frameserved) timeline is 50p. You cannot put 50p on a DVD, so your only option to keep the fluid motion of the 50p original is to interlace it into 25 interlaced frames per second (containing 50 fields per second). It'll look perfectly fine – deinterlacers in TVs and DVD/BD players these days are good and you get to keep the smooth motion which is a huge plus.
The only other option would be to drop every other frame of the 50p original and be left with 25p which can indeed be put on DVD, but trust me it would most likely be uncomfortable to watch unless the video was shot in very specific ways such as a 180 degree shutter angle and avoiding of pans and fast motion.

Right I am SO CLOSE! After taking everyone's advice, I burnt a disc and the quality is amazing!! However, I am getting scan lines on the subject in my scenes during motion when I play it back on my TV. Any ideas why the interlace might be showing like this? I'm using my Xbox to play the DVD, I would assume it might be an issue with the Xbox de interlacing but thought I'd ask you guys in case in case I have made an error somewhere? Thanks!

Footage exported with Lagarith codec - 1080p50 progressive

My final script:
AviSource("finished.avi")
ConvertToYV12()
Spline36Resize(720,576)
Blur(0,0.5)
ColorMatrix(mode="Rec.709->Rec.601",clamp=0)
AssumeTFF().SeparateFields().SelectEvery(4, 0, 3).Weave()

HCencoder settings:
Avg bitrate - 4000
Max bitrate - 8000
Profile - Best
Matrix - Manono3
Interlacing options - Auto detect; TFF