FILM9 - Restoration software for old films (8mm, Super8, 16mm) and video

[lollo]

Because Avisynth is a scripting tool. Loading an avs script into VirtualDub does not make Avisynth a WYSIWYG tool.

I did not say that AviSynth is a WYSIWYG tool. I said that working with AviSynth is possible "dial exactly the look they want and they can see the changes right away". If you want to play with words, do it yourself!

You can use avspmod

Thanks pdr, but our new expert and our NLE fan will reply that the frameserver AviSynth tool is not a WYSIWYG without an additional program like VirtualDub or AvsPmod

edit: I generally use VirtualDub because I can see in real time the effect of a change in complex scripts or DLLs just with a reload or through a side by side comparison with stackhorizontal, and with AvsPmod is not always possible.

[ConsumerDV]

I did not say that AviSynth is a WYSIWYG tool. I said that working with AviSynth is possible "dial exactly the look they want and they can see the changes right away". If you want to play with words, do it yourself!

To me, seeing changes right away should not involve re-running a script. This is getting boring.

[poisondeathray]

edit: I generally use VirtualDub because I can see in real time the effect of a change in complex scripts or DLLs just with a reload or through a side by side comparison with stackhorizontal, and with AvsPmod is not always possible.

Why wouldn't it be possible with avspmod? You can preview, stackhorizonal in avspmod. Or use interactive sliders that change the actual script values

But the *best* feature of avspmod is tabs. It's often difficult to see minor differences side by side. Having an image swapped and aligned is another way of comparing that you cannot do with vdub. Tabs gives you ability to compare multiple versions of scripts , or comparing them to original, and comparing them by toggling them with the number keys. It would be like "soloing" a specific layer in a NLE, except faster

avspmod is the closest thing to a GUI for avisynth (But resolve is still 10x better for color work)

[lollo]

To me, seeing changes right away should not involve re-running a script.

In a certain sense, there is nothing to re-run. AviSynth will "serve" the required frame to VDub. You change a parameter in the script and you hit F2 key in VDub and see the result in real time.

Now, if you stop acting like a troll, I have a ghosting problem to solve with AviSynth https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/405927-Ghost-on-analog-capture; maybe you can suggest to me a WYSIWYG NLE to solve my problem?

edit: typos corrected

[lollo]

Why wouldn't it be possible with avspmod? You can preview, stackhorizonal in avspmod. Or use interactive sliders that change the actual script values

I can stack, but I was unable to creade sliders for example to check QTGMC parameters, probably my limit and lack of longer investigation on my side.

It's often difficult to see minor differences side by side. Having an image swapped and aligned is another way of comparing that you cannot do with vdub.

I often use Interleave() and move through frames before and after filtering, to highlight differences when a side-by-side comparison does not give enough details

[ConsumerDV]

In a certain sense, there is nothing to re-run. AviSynth will "serve" the required frame to VDub. You change a parameter in the script and you hit F2 key in VDub and see the result in real time.

It is like 1970s all over again. I am backing out of this conversation.

Now, if you stop acting like a troll...

I beg your pardon?

Regarding VirtualDub/Avisynth: it would be nice if I could load avs script in VirtualDub not as a file, but as a filter along with other filters, so that I could see the original file on the left and the script result on the right pane. I understand that with Avisynth being a frameserver and representing a source file for VDub, this is not possible. Too bad. This why I prefer visual tools - I can compare the source and the target window.

But the *best* feature of avspmod is tabs. It's often difficult to see minor differences side by side. Having an image swapped and aligned is another way of comparing that you cannot do with vdub.

Thanks, I need to try that!

[lollo]

so that I could see the original file on the left and the script result on the right pane

Welcome to 2022! Practice a little bit more with AviSynth and VirtualDub, and you'll succeed

I am out of this conversation as well!

[poisondeathray]

Why wouldn't it be possible with avspmod? You can preview, stackhorizonal in avspmod. Or use interactive sliders that change the actual script values

I can stack, but I was unable to creade sliders for example to check QTGMC parameters, probably my limit and lack of longer investigation on my side.

QTGMC is like a mega function - having 143 sliders would be more clutter than not. All the QTGMC settings would be way too cluttered for a NLE dialog box too. But it should be possible to create user sliders for specific ones... but I'd argue that people that already use QTGMC would probably find it easier to write the text for QTGMC - I don't see a slider being helpful for that function

I think sliders could be more useful for some people coming from a NLE background, for some types of functions like levels, tweak etc... and you see real time update just like you would in a NLE .

It's often difficult to see minor differences side by side. Having an image swapped and aligned is another way of comparing that you cannot do with vdub.

I often use Interleave() and move through frames before and after filtering, to highlight differences when a side-by-side comparison does not give enough details

interleave is ok...but let's say you have 7 different versions to check. Each using different settings/filters

Lets say you have a defect on frame 4561 you want to check. How do you check it? Interleave changes the frame count. It's a nightmare finding specific frames with more than 2 versions. With avspmod, you go to frame 4561 and all 7 versions are aligned on the frame. Number keys instantly hot swap. What if you want to swap version 5 and compare to original in tab 1 ? Quite difficult with interleave - you have to juggle frames, maybe even label them with subtitle.

Another benefit of avspmod over vdub is the color picker in the status bar - you can read off YUV values, converted RGB values, hex values. 8-16bit even float now. Do you have a color cast? Hard to say with some sources in vdub... you can eyeball it in vdub, or measure the actual values in avspmod

[lollo]

having 143 sliders would be more clutter than not

Obviously nobody wants to have 143 sliders. I was only interested to have few parameters to change on the fly, for example a denoise strength in QTGCM or a temporal radius in TemporalDegrain2 and see their effects moving a slider. I failed and gave up, but did not invest that much; a specific customization of the scripts might have helped, but I find other ways to choose the optimal values.

I think sliders could be more useful for some people coming from a NLE background, for some types of functions like levels, tweak etc... and you see real time update just like you would in a NLE .

That's where the numbers that are present in my small script come from! Having a slider for ColorYUV, Levels and Tweakk to choose contrast, saturation, levels, etc is very easy and I used. It is just that now I do not do much "color" correction, because I equalize with GamMatch() plugin the wanted "look" to a reference.

but let's say you have 7 different versions to check... How do you check it? Interleave changes the frame count.

Never worked with amount of version at the same time, but I generally use ShowFrame() on each clip or manually calculate "number of frames x number of versions".
However, I agree that "the tabs" feature is more suitable for extensive activity.

Another benefit of avspmod over vdub is the color picker in the status bar... Do you have a color cast?

Sure, I really like the feature to have the hex, rgb, and yuv triplets at a specific (x,y) position. As I said I don't do much color manipulations, and as inferior alternative I (rarely) used CSamp for RGB numbers when needed.

And finally I did not want to give the impression to dislike AvsPmod, I apologize if I was not clear. It is an excellent piece of software, and I know our friend franceBB at doom9 uses extensively for his professional broadcast activity and is probably the bigger fan of it!
I meant that I do not use it that much and prefere the simpler VDub approach as viewer for my scripts because AvsPmod has not that "complex parameter slider" I whish it had in my usage.

Thanks for your contribution, useful as always!

[Alwyn]

This is the Film9 forum, everybody.

[Gelinox]

Thanks Alvin.

But it is interesting to read how easy Avisynth is to use. QTGCM, TemporalDegrain2, ColorYUV, Levels and Tweakk, GamMatch() plugin, ShowFrame(), hex, rgb, and yuv triplets at a specific (x,y) position, CSamp for RGB, AvsPmod, VDub, etc...
A beginner just has to dedicate a few years of his life to it to sort it all out.

And the movie in question that lollo is talking about has a duration of two hours, at a rate of 2.5 fps it just renders about 20 hours... unless Avisynth crashes before the end because you would have given up use WindowsXP or windows7 and you would have upgraded to Windows10 (what madness).

[lollo]

QTGCM

Does not your NLE ever need to deinterlace? Same in AviSynth

TemporalDegrain2

Does not your NLE ever need to denoise? Same in AviSynth

ColorYUV, Levels and Tweakk

Does not your NLE ever need to adjust the look? Same in AviSynth

GamMatch()

That's a nice AviSynth feature. Does your NLE have it?

hex, rgb, and yuv triplets at a specific (x,y) position, CSamp for RGB

Does not your NLE ever need to consider/change color space info? Same in AviSynth

A beginner just has to dedicate a few years of his life to it to sort it all out.

and you would have upgraded to Windows10 (what madness)

I am working inside Window10 for capturing and restoring since years without any problem. But maybe it takes few years to sort it all out

[lollo]

And finally, I thinks that this discussion should stop now, even because you are contaminating other posts with your comments: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/405927-Ghost-on-analog-capture#post2658274

You asked me a sample of raw capture and a sample of a basic restoration with AviSynth to compare its results with yours, and I was happy to contribute to what was supposed to be a constructive comparison.

You then had my comments (not important) and the comments from lordsmurf and johnmeyer, two of the most experienced and knowledgeable video restorers here and in other important forums, just read their post to understand with who you are talking. It is not the same as discussing with me or Alwin, with all due respect.
I sometimes disagree with them on specific points, but they are masters, same as jagabo or poisondeathray.

You did not accept that I prefere my results and did not adhere to your methodology, for both outcomes and facilitates in use, and this fight started. It was my fault as well, that's for sure!

It is now time, for me at least, to stop. Thanks for you samples and good luck with your NLEs and Tools.

[Gelinox]

Et enfin, je pense que cette discussion devrait s'arrêter maintenant, même parce que vous contaminez d'autres messages avec vos commentaires : https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/405927-Ghost-on-analog-capture#post2658274

I'm like you, is it hard to accept?

[johnmeyer]

Many posters on this forum are simply already biased toward avisynth. So no point in changing already formed minds.

You are very definitely missing the point of what AVISynth is all about.

First, I am not one of those people who always recommends AVISynth. In fact, just as often as not, I actually try to steer people away from AVISynth when it is the wrong tool. A good example is color correction. A good NLE is a FAR better tool for that, especially if the user has access to some good plugins, yet we often see requests here for how to use AVISynth for that job.

However, the reason AVISynth is recommended so often has nothing to do with bias and everything to do with selecting the correct tool for the job. AVISynth is one of the few tools which can analyze almost any aspect of a video (brightness & color, differences between frames, artifacts, etc.) and then take action based on what the analysis finds. Most other tools just apply the same correction to each frame, without regard to anything. And, even when a plugin does such a thing (like automatic color correction), it is "hard-wired" and provides no way to get at the internal workings of the plugin.

There really isn't anything like AVISynth anywhere else and, for someone who wants to improve the quality of video that is not optimal, there often are no substitutes.

[Gelinox]

This discussion is too long and useless, I will close it here.

Avisynth is an ageing tool, difficult to implement and slow.
It is also extremely sharp and devilishly efficient in correcting certain problems and I readily admit that.

Your description of the possibilities and characteristics of an NLE seems obsolete and does not correspond to my experience.
You reduce the use to a caricature of effects and corrections applied without nuance.
But then why do so many studios and professionals use this software which is not only dedicated to editing and colourimetry?

Currently, 90% of you use Avisynth and the remaining 10% use NLE.
Gradually this proportion will be reversed as people become more familiar with NLEs and Avisynth gets older.
My problem is probably that I was right a little too early.
But only time will tell.

This is also why we are no longer developing FILM9.
Why invest a lot of time in an application whose core (Avisynth DLL's) is not renewed or renewed very little and too slowly.
One can always argue that when it's good, there's no need to improve.

Anyway, good luck to all and a huge thank you to the people who supported us with their messages and donations.

[ConsumerDV]

Avisynth is a batch processor. NLE is a WYSIWYG tool. They have different, though sometimes itersecting, uses. Avid Media Composer was released in 1989, so you are definitely not too early. Good luck to you too.

[johnmeyer]

<snip>Your description of the possibilities and characteristics of an NLE seems obsolete and does not correspond to my experience.
You reduce the use to a caricature of effects and corrections applied without nuance.
But then why do so many studios and professionals use this software which is not only dedicated to editing and colourimetry?

Currently, 90% of you use Avisynth and the remaining 10% use NLE. <snip>

I realize we are dealing with some language issues here, but this response shows a complete and total misunderstanding of what I wrote. To help you understand, I had close to 10,000 posts on the old SonicFoundry/Sony Vegas forum (for those who don't know, Vegas is an NLE). I have used an NLE almost every day for 25 years. I wrote scripts to help automate some of the more tedious tasks, so I know how to use some of the very advanced features.

The point is, I know a tremendous amount about what an NLE can do, and use it far more often then AVISynth.

I said is much in my last post, but you missed it.

Also, I would guess that a huge percentage of people on this forum use an NLE, certainly far, far more than 10%.

Yes, AVISynth is difficult at times but, slow? No, if you use multi-threading AND if you consider what it is actually doing, it is NOT slow. Put another way, slow compared to what? An NLE? Unless all you do with your NLE is cuts-only editing, then once you try to composite a dozen tracks, apply motion blurring, and do other fX, you will be lucky -- even with a great GPU and dozens of cores -- to get more than a few fps/second rendering speed.

The point about having to rely on AVISynth DLLs also brings up another point: if you want to create a commercial software program, you need to do your own programming for the core functions. Relying on open source and expecting it to follow the path you need to take in order to be successful is folly.

I know this because I have run three software companies. We built all our own software and for the things we didn't program, we only used commercial libraries.

[lordsmurf]

Avisynth is an ageing tool, difficult to implement and slow.
A beginner just has to dedicate a few years of his life to it to sort it all out.

You started this thread in 2014. It's been evident to me since that first page that you simply lack skill at using Avisynth. It doesn't take years, it just takes some reading, some experimentation ("get your hands dirty"), and asking for help when you need it.

Gradually this proportion will be reversed as people become more familiar with NLEs

Wrong. NLEs edit. And NLEs are tools that do that task so very well.
But to filter (excluding color work), restore, correct? No.

This is also why we are no longer developing FILM9.
Why invest a lot of time in an application whose core (Avisynth DLL's) is not renewed or renewed very little and too slowly.

I call BS. It always had issues, including issues that (at first) you denied existed. It was a weak GUI, nothing more. AvsPmod was the actual GUI for Avisynth. More likely is the fact that Win10/11 are screwing up video tools. At least place blame where it's due.

I actually try to steer people away from AVISynth when it is the wrong tool.

That's all it is: a tool for video work. Not a religion, etc. Just a tool for tasks.
- For some tasks, this is the wrong tool.
- For others, the ideal tool, in a menu of tools.
- For some tasks, the ONLY tool that can do what is needed.

You know this, I know this ... why doesn't everybody understand this?

You bang nails with hammers, turn screws with screwdrivers. This isn't hard stuff. Tools.

[johnmeyer]

You bang nails with hammers, turn screws with screwdrivers. This isn't hard stuff. Tools.

Exactly!

[Gelinox]

...

[lordsmurf]

Anyway, good luck to all

...

I think this is a perfect way to end the thread. We've all said our piece now.

Good luck to you as well.

[mammo1789]

Gradually this proportion will be reversed as people become more familiar with NLEs
Wrong. NLEs edit. And NLEs are tools that do that task so very well.
But to filter (excluding color work), restore, correct? No.

That was maybe true couple of years back now I don't think so. For example there is group of plugins called Boris FX it is maintained for many years now(many using nle like premiere or vegas are familiar with it ) It has plugins like VHS dropout fixer or DV fixer among many others that address many of the problems avisynth used to only fix it with tons of settings and sliders which visually represent the changes on screen and it is damn good at par with many removedirt scripts without the nasty side effects of the sript ( or any similar approach) or even better you can isolate the drop outs and use frames as long as 20-30 frames back and forth and eliminate them ( not just mask it like remodirt is doing with out damaging the rest of the picture ( you can do something in avys with mask but much complicated and slow ) and it is fast very fast. Then you got the neat video for noise reduction and in recent vers scratch and lines and flicker removal (suitable for films and slides ) it is fixing many of the problems only avisynth did in the past and it is also fast with new hardware. Also may of the well known nles have scripting capabilities (Photoshop,Premiere for example) which extend the capabilities of the nle.
So far qtgmc is still tad "better" than some commercial deinterlaces but the gap is closing. Color correction in Avisynth is nightmare and many of the filters in Premiere are working in yuv space

Don't get me wrong avisynth is very good tool as you sad but time is passing by and some of the plugins are very hard to find or maintain, different versions and so one dependent on another plugin or script and so on so its getting harder and harder. Vaporsynth is also slowly preceding aviysynth in many fields and its much more "modern"

[ConsumerDV]

So far qtgmc is still tad "better" than some commercial deinterlaces but the gap is closing.

"better" or better?

One could argue that it was QTGMC that closed the gap with tools like Rhozet Carbon Coder, which I still remember as ProCoder

[mammo1789]

better (without ")for now that what I said the point was that many nles (especially with some plugins) can fix picture problems and not just edit

[johnmeyer]

What you are all missing is AVISynth's unique ability to analyze virtually any aspect of a video and then take action on what is found and do so within a frame, across several frames, or just on specific pixels.

Here is something I did which, to my knowledge, no one else has ever done. There is no NLE plugin, nor will there ever be an NLE plugin, that can do this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qx26T6WOZ_4

The people who are taking swipes at AVISynth come off, at least to me, as being pretty ignorant of how it works and what it can actually do.

[VoodooFX]

I think, they just rant for ranting's sake and most of them don't even understand what they are talking about.

From the last ranter I understood that time is passing by and "google" is getting very hard and harder... and Vaporsynth is also preceding aviysynth in all those "google" fields...

Only God knows what that means.

[Alwyn]

Cropped hackjob with a few clicks of Neat Video:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/14e5X3JaIb5rGMCtd-G0cF-NtGxuqFC0E/view?usp=sharing

[lordsmurf]

d Boris FX ... VHS dropout fixer or DV fixer

Interesting. Dropout fixer is very narrow in scope, and probably not capable of typical excessive comet corrections. But still, single dropouts, interlaced source, interesting. Thanks for the tip. Avisynth can be tedious for frame replacements like this. I've been sitting on a project for years, PITA. I'll look into this for it.

EDIT: Costly! And I'm not a fan of subscription models. Perhaps later.

[mammo1789]

Interesting. Dropout fixer is very narrow in scope, and probably not capable of typical excessive comet corrections. But still, single dropouts, interlaced source, interesting. Thanks for the tip. Avisynth can be tedious for frame replacements like this. I've been sitting on a project for years, PITA. I'll look into this for it.

EDIT: Costly! And I'm not a fan of subscription models. Perhaps later.

It can do comets to, head switch noise, it has parameters for spatial and temporal so it is very good I used the older version before it became very very expensive and subscription based so yeah I agree on the price. I stamp on it very randomly ( I got it with the magazine that I bought on vacation) and used for one of my projects where I couldn't make it successfully(without damaging and softening the picture) with the avisynth approaches even with the help of You and Jagabo ( the guys that I appreciate a lot, and learnt a lot from in the past) even on the equipment that I bought for the transfer of my tapes thanks.