Vhs/DVD clarity question

[jagabo]

Can you even get hard drives under 100 GB anymore? Big USB thumb drives run about 50 cents per gigabyte now. So a 128 GB drive will run you $60 or $70. I usually buy from Amazon, NewEgg or Rakuten. Or the local Fry's when something is on sale.

[Oldretiredguy]

Can you even get hard drives under 100 GB anymore? Big USB thumb drives run about 50 cents per gigabyte now. So a 128 GB drive will run you $60 or $70. I usually buy from Amazon, NewEgg or Rakuten. Or the local Fry's when something is on sale.

Thanks Jagabo, those would be my choices also. By the way, Fry's is a west coast store. Where are you located? Anywhere close to Orange Co.?

R

[jagabo]

About 50 miles south of you.

[sanlyn]

The typical 2.5" external; USB hard drive is similar to a laptop hard drive, but it's in a container that is, of course, portable and works with USB power. Brand names are Toshiba, Seagate, Western Digital, etc. The capacity range starts around 250GB and goes up to 2 or 3 TB. I suffe to think of losing 2 TB of data thru drive failure, so 500GB is the limit that I keep around, and some of it is backed up on a second drive. These portables are more reliable than they used to be a few years ago. They come as USB2 or USB 3 drives (USB 3 is compatible with USB 2 input jacks). Samples:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA0AJ10M4888
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822236190

Most people catch these drive on sale. Prices are about the same for all brands.

Another type of external drive setup would be used for rteal-time use and processing, using "regular" PC-type drives in fan-cooled enclosure on A.C. wall power. This is faster than small portables and with this type of rel-time constant use, a setup like this would be better:
Typical Hard Drive: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136798
Typical fan-cooled AC-powered HDD enclosure: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817173042

I use both types; the little portables for archiving, the fan-cooled faster guys for real-time and frequent work.

You might contact digitalfaq and inquire about the logistics of shipping a lossless captures. For the final delivery format that you request (DVD), they'll likely just use DVD disk.

[Oldretiredguy]

Along the coast? Or inland?

R

[jagabo]

San Marcos.

[Oldretiredguy]

San Marcos.

Nice area. I like it down there. One of my favorite places is the Antique Tractor Museum in Vista. Ever been there? It's a great place to shoot video.

R

[jagabo]

Antique Tractor Museum in Vista

Never heard of it. I'll check it out sometime.

[Oldretiredguy]

Antique Tractor Museum in Vista

Never heard of it. I'll check it out sometime.

I have always been fascinated by old machinery. They are open twice a year for open house and it runs two weekends. It's great and if you have kids or grandkids they will love it. Each day they have a parade of tractors that last about an hour. Also there are a ton of old steam engines and hit and miss single cylinder engines that were used to power many different things. I really do get a kick out of it. Hope you get to see it sometime.

R

[Brad]

The Diamond unit isn't well regarded. In particular, it captures to lossy MPEG and is no better than what you used before.

Except for its comb filter, it's excellent actually and you can capture lossless with it. The current generation of USB 2.0 capture sticks have opted to forgo hardware encoding -- obviously those pennies matter when you're selling devices for $25 and under.

[Oldretiredguy]

The Diamond unit isn't well regarded. In particular, it captures to lossy MPEG and is no better than what you used before.

Except for its comb filter, it's excellent actually and you can capture lossless with it. The current generation of USB 2.0 capture sticks have opted to forgo hardware encoding -- obviously those pennies matter when you're selling devices for $25 and under.

Ok folks, work with me here. I just rec'd this thing in the mail today. Great service from Amazon I must say. Anyway, for what's involved moneywise, should I or shouldn't I keep the Diamond unit? I want to try to do some of this stuff myself so I need some sort of capture device. This one was rated pretty high and was priced very cheap. For what's involved I lean toward keeping it and playing with it. What say you all?

Ray

[Brad]

If your neighbor really happens to have a JVC HR-S7500U, you can avoid the one blatant downside of this capture device by using an S-Video cable. You should be able to get a pretty nice TBC'd capture out of that VCR: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-capture/4780-preliminary-jvc-s7500u.html

I've already given my personal opinion on the Diamond device, but I should point out that I've compared six USB capture sticks, and the VC500 is at the top of those for me. It's well worth the price, and I guess you could probably still return it to Amazon if you find it's not for you. Just don't use the bundled software -- install the drivers and use VirtualDub. (Paying special attention to disable the retiming function in its Capture Timing settings.)

[sanlyn]

The Diamond unit isn't well regarded. In particular, it captures to lossy MPEG and is no better than what you used before.

Except for its comb filter, it's excellent actually and you can capture lossless with it. The current generation of USB 2.0 capture sticks have opted to forgo hardware encoding -- obviously those pennies matter when you're selling devices for $25 and under.

I don't understand what you mean by "excellent", unless indeed you mean that you do get an image and some audio. According to lordsmurf and other tech info I've seen on it, the VC500 is based on the Conexant chip that has poor definition at low and medium resolutions (I take 720x480 to be a 'medium" resolution, but others might differ on that and that rating might refer to MPEG2 capture, rather than to lossless AVI), and Conexant is infamous for audio sync problems. I also understand that the VC500 used software MPEG encoding, not hardware. But the latter is beside the point if you ignore its capture software and use VirtualDub for capture to YUY2 lossless AVI with Lagarith or huffyuv compression. To me, capturing along that line means XP + VirtualDub capture. Whether that works on a laptop, I don't know. 720x480 capture of that kind would be 30 to 40GB per hour, maybe a bit less for VHS with its lack of video data to begin with.

If anyone would care to answer oldretiredguy's questions about using the VC500 with VDub capture, it would be helpful. I've always used capture cards, not USB adapters. If nothing else, it beats capturing to MPEG2 with a lesser encoder or capturing to DV with its color problems. And the O.P. can start learning some really useful stuff about video, even if he gets a better capture device later.

You can try it out by installing the card's capture drivers, plug in the VC500, then open VirtualDub capture to see if VDub recognizes the device. This doesn't solve the shortcoming of not having a better VCR or a tbc pass-thru device, which is 50% of the original problem.

[Brad]

I don't understand what you mean by "excellent", unless indeed you mean that you do get an image and some audio. According to lordsmurf and other tech info I've seen on it, the VC500 is based on the Conexant chip that has poor definition at low and medium resolutions (I take 720x480 to be a 'medium" resolution

Where to begin... I guess to start with I will say that 720x480 isn't "medium" resolution for SD video; it's the max for 60Hz standard def.

The only lordsmurf post I can find that mentions the VC500 is a post from 2009 where he suggests a user buy one for video game capture but not use it for VHS. (It didn't use a Conexant chip back then; there was a silent revision -- so his offhanded comment on that version isn't relevant.)

By excellent I mean the typical definition of the word. The video quality is highly accurate to the source being fed into it, in terms of both resolution and color. The Proc Amp controls offer a wide range of brightness/contrast adjustment.

I also understand that the VC500 used software MPEG encoding, not hardware. But the latter is beside the point if you ignore its capture software and use VirtualDub for capture to YUY2 lossless AVI with Lagarith or huffyuv compression.

If you understood that it's compatible with lossless capture, why did you deride it as being lossy MPEG and no better than his existing file?

(I don't ebeliev the 7500 had tbc)

From the link: "Both VCRs have Video Calibration and Digital R3 OFF and the TBC/DNR switched ON."

Well, OK, as far as "USB devices go", all of which are pretty much alike,all of which use either of two capture chips, and none of which would be among the premium class until you get into the $500 range. In any case, it's worth a try. It would be better than what the owner used originally.

Could it be that someone who has spent hours testing multiple devices might possibly know more on the topic than a fellow who said just a few paragraphs up he's never touched one? There are plenty of chips in use. One consequence of this is that Linux users never know if there is a driver for a given device until they test and open it up. (The unlisted line changes I mentioned above are very common, especially among Hauppauge USB devices.)

How many $500 capture cards have you used? I haven't heard anything special about the pro gear, and even devices like the DPS-575 that cost over $8000 in 2000 used the same SAA7113 ADC chip that is in cheap-ass Dazzles.

[sanlyn]

Chill, man. Where to begin?

Where to begin... I guess to start with I will say that 720x480 isn't "medium" resolution for SD video; it's the max for 60Hz standard def.

Ever heard of capturing SD VHS output to something bigger than 720x480? I have. And saw it done by archivists at restoration shops. I know personally of one advanced amateur in nearby New Jersey who routinely captures old VHS to 1280x960. Will that ever be used around here?. Considering this forum's long standing prejudice against higher quality and more painstaking work, I very seriously doubt it.

The only lordsmurf post I can find that mentions the VC500 is a post from 2009 where he suggests a user buy one for video game capture but not use it for VHS. (It didn't use a Conexant chip back then; there was a silent revision -- so his offhanded comment on that version isn't relevant.)

What was "silent" about it? I recall seeing it mentioned in Newegg or Amazon user reviews somewhere, and on doom9, the doom9 capture guide, and AfterDawn, over the years. I don't ever recall anyone ever recommending cheap USB devices over anything better, anywhere, anytime, except on some source like everything-is-the-same-thing CNET or PCMag. Also, I beleive lordsmurf (and others) have mentioned this particular product as part of a "type" of capture device with certain characteristics that they don't recommend for high-quality use, but which they do concede will actually produce viewable results. In that case, I could go along with it as as a useful tool.

By excellent I mean the typical definition of the word. The video quality is highly accurate to the source being fed into it, in terms of both resolution and color. The Proc Amp controls offer a wide range of brightness/contrast adjustment.

When you're ready to bring your resolution charts and capture samples out and post them all over the thread, get to it. You compared 6 products that are all pretty much the same thing, some even made with the same input wire stock and molded plugs, some being even cheaper rip-offs of the other. As for using them, speak for yourself. What makes you think I haven't used any of this stuff or personally seen it in use by others?

If you understood that it's compatible with lossless capture, why did you deride it as being lossy MPEG and no better than his existing file?

I should probably re-word that post. Consider that the buyer in question would likely use it as most buyers would -- and would likely fall for the claims made by its typically over-hyped ads that say: "directly to DVD". with the typical intimation that not even Disney geniuses could do better. It didn't occur to me until afterward, that oldretiredguy could discover what lossless processing was. It appeared that like many newcomers the terms "copy", "capture" and "transfer" mean the same thing. When I first came to this stuff, I thought the same way, and the difference between those terms was simply a mystery back then.

It can indeed be used for lossless capture, and so can some other toys. Comparing it to something more sophisticated is another story. Comparing a group of $25 plastic gadgets with other $25 plastic gadgets all made in the same way from similar components, I guess you could easily demonstrate that among the $25 gadgets, one would be "better" than the others.

(I don't ebeliev the 7500 had tbc)

From the link: "Both VCRs have Video Calibration and Digital R3 OFF and the TBC/DNR switched ON."

Thanks for refreshing my memory on that. I've gone through three 7000-series VCR's myself, but that was a while back.

Could it be that someone who has spent hours testing multiple devices might possibly know more on the topic than a fellow who said just a few paragraphs up he's never touched one? There are plenty of chips in use. One consequence of this is that Linux users never know if there is a driver for a given device until they test and open it up. (The unlisted line changes I mentioned above are very common, especially among Hauppauge USB devices.)

I think we covered this earlier. If I could remember what the product's software looks like exactly, or that of similar devices, or how it was hooked up when I saw it in use by others, then those details escape me now. Granted, I haven't personally had my hands on that specific model, but I'm acquainted with those who have physically manipulated the thing and I've seen the results of its captures in this forum and others over the years. Based on that limited experience (which does not include my fingerprints on a sample of a product), I'd say you're absolutely correct: it does produce an image that moves and makes noise, and we'll take your word for it that among the similar $25 to $50 toys you compared it to, it's the best of the lot.

How many $500 capture cards have you used? I haven't heard anything special about the pro gear, and even devices like the DPS-575 that cost over $8000 in 2000 used the same SAA7113 ADC chip that is in cheap-ass Dazzles.

I'm not familiar with the DPS-575. I have personally used an ATI Fire-GL pro card quite a while back (didn't belong to me, though, and I didn't install it myself. I couldn't afford a $1500 card back then). How many have you used yourself? How many have you seen in use? How many times have you seen first-hand the results from other users of those products? I even hear complaints about the vaunted BlackMagic line, as far as premium-price gadgets go. I can vouch for a couple of industrial cards whose name and numbers I don't recall, having seen them used in a museum restoral shop in Carona, NY and listened to a pro discussing them. Most of my hands-on is limited to a couple of other $25 plastic sticks and several ATI ALL-In-Wonders that I own and use myself -- the latter being among the equipment used by some a/v engineer at the Museum of Modern Art, for what purpose I know not. (And did I see a difference between the mainstream AIW's and the plastic pretenders? You bet I did! And so did some testers on a few gaming sites back then).

I'm sure this is of great interest to oldretiredguy (seriously, not kidding), who might not be accustomed to this sort of debate. In any case, I think we agree to disagree on the exact level of quality. But the VC500 won't be the worst, is certainly better than many other methods, can be used for lossless capture if Ray wants to learn how much better it can be than other means. I'm sure he can handle it.

So far, we now have a workable capture device and method, a 7600U, and the basic software. I think that means Ray can start rockin' and rollin'.

[jagabo]

Where to begin?... I know personally of one advanced amateur in nearby New Jersey who routinely captures old VHS to 1280x960. Will that ever be used around here?

Not by anyone who knows what they're doing. SD analog video consists of 480 discreet scan lines (actually 485 lines in the active picture area, but only 480 are captured these days). You can't digitize 960 scan lines from that. Anyone who is capturing as 960 scan lines is simply resizing the incoming 480 line digital frames. Ie, you can do the exact same thing by capturing 480 lines then scaling to 960 lines later. That scaling will cause degredation (except with a point resize) whether it's done while capturing or later.

On the horizontal axis, indeed many capture cards capture at high resolution (for example, 1440 samples per scan line -- it's an continuous signal so you can capture with as many samples as you want), then downscale to 720 for output. But I'm not aware of any cards that output the full 1440 (or whatever) samples. So anyone that's capturing as 1280 pixels wide is probably digitally upscaling the capture devices 720 pixel wide picture. And if they do have a card that samples and delivers 960 pixels per scan line -- all they're doing with VHS is getting more noise. The underlying image only has the bandwidth for about 350 lines of resolution.

[sanlyn]

I don't remember what that guy was using. I don't even know why. That was some years ago. His final output after cleanup was vanilla DVD. It looked gorgeous (on a CRT, anyway). Met him in a photo club in Manhattan. He worked at the old 47th Street Photo's pro video shop. He's the one who convinced me to buy my first AIW, which at the time I feared like somebody on their first trip to the moon. But I was intrigued by its then-massive 16MB of video RAM ! As for that other user, he had enough a/v gear in his living room to provision a small TV station. Heaven knows what he paid for it.

[Oldretiredguy]

Ok guys, I have read and reread this entire thread. It is still all gibberish to me. How can I ever figure out what you all are talking about? It is all written is some kind of strange code. All the abbreviations and so on have got me totally confused and frustrated. Is there a quick basic explanation on all the terminology that you are using? I really want to understand but it is like me walking into a Chinese laundry and trying to understand what everybody is saying. Maybe after hanging out for a few years I would be able to speak Chinese but I don't have enough life left in me. It would really benefit me if I could just understand what you are talking about. I can sort of read between the lines but in most cases it is all going over my head. I'm lost. I'm drowning. Help.

Ray

[Oldretiredguy]

Well, once again I showed the world how ignorant I am. I just found the glossary up in the left corner of the screen. So, now I can maybe follow along with your conversation. Thanks for your patience. I guess maybe my ship has sailed.

Ray

[sanlyn]

Yep, I was about to suggest that the forum glossary is a handy source. When I first entered this insane video activity I had multiple screens open in my web browser, with the glossary on one page and the other windows switching back and forth between various sites.

Come to think of it, every time I searched for something like "Newbie Guide To All Things Video", I never found it here. Nothing. I found guides for specific software apps, etc., (and VirtualDub is NOT there, as far as I can see!). The opening pages of the Avisynth online help files are sort of essential, but you still have to know what the heck they're talking about.

The place I started was digitalfaq.com. Now, some of that is a bit outdated, like capturing VHS tape to MPEG2 using ATI's MMC software, which no one uses today and which has seen its time from the 1990's. But I did dig up a few articles in the digitalfaq guides that would be helpful. These are not overlong web pages, but are blessedly brief:

Introduction To DVD Video
Understanding Video sources, which explains stuff you really oughtta know. Don't worry about any numbers you see; they are there for completeness -- all you need now is the general idea.
Introduction To Video Restoration, which has images of typical problems with analog video, and what the problems are called.

There are also a few links in those pages to other sites that give more info.

As for stuff such as which processing chip is used by which copy device......I wouldn't worry about that. Honestly, I don't think most people care or know the difference. The thing either works or it doesn't.

[Brad]

Anyone know of a good VC500/VirtualDub capture guide?

Any VirtualDub capture guide should do; the only thing specific to this device that I can think of is a trick to access its Proc Amp controls if they aren't accessible the normal way. (They aren't for me, but another user says he can access them fine.)

Considering this forum's long standing prejudice against higher quality and more painstaking work

I haven't gotten that impression from longstanding members. The people who pop-on to ask a question and disappear, certainly, but that's not specific to this forum.

Jagabo already covered the thing about capturing SD at higher resolution, so I'll skip that.

What was "silent" about it?

That the manufacturer didn't change the model number to note the difference.

I recall seeing it mentioned in Newegg or Amazon user reviews somewhere, and on doom9, the doom9 capture guide

Seems the Doom9 capture guide hasn't been updated since 2004, so I'm not sure what you're referring to. I would like to see one of these user reviews if you come across it again, as it's a nice surprise to see random reviewers get into nitty-gritty tech specs.

When you're ready to bring your resolution charts and capture samples out and post them all over the thread, get to it.

While I would love to, I don't think this is the thread for it. I plan to post them soon in a thread specific to comparing the devices.

You compared 6 products that are all pretty much the same thing

I've also compared internal cards before. (Maybe I can whip up a basic version of my new thread just to hit the 3-year anniversary today.)

What makes you think I haven't used any of this stuff

Well, you said so.

I've seen the results of its captures in this forum and others over the years.

The results of people using the included software to capture to MPEG-2, likely using poor VCRs -- we agree that produces bad results. But so do samples posted by people who don't know what they're doing using All-in-Wonders and other cards.

I have personally used an ATI Fire-GL pro card quite a while back

Had to look it up. From what I'm gathering, they were graphics cards aimed at CAD & 3D artists. I'm failing to come up with a search term that shows one with video inputs. Wouldn't they just use the same Theater chips as ATI's other devices?

How many have you used yourself?

Just the one (the younger brother of the DPS-575 I mentioned), and I'm thoroughly unimpressed by it. Always looking for evidence that there's something better out there, though.

[sanlyn]

I don't remember the model numbers for a lot of the old capture cards. ATI made the Fire-GL line of cards for quite a few people, many of them rebranded, for various purposes. You're going back 14 years. "Fire-GL" as I saw it years ago referred to a product line, not to a speciific model. Think about it now, it was a card with another brand but had "Fire-GL" and ATI logos allover the user manual -- which was something like 150 pages.

I haven't used the specific VC500. If you say it works OK, sounds OK to me. How it differs from others that look and act like it and use the same innards is getting off track anyway, since it will apparently be good enough for the O.P. to work with and will be an improvement over what was used earlier. Looking up old reviews on the USB capture line will definitely get varied results. People who can't see interlace artifacts and macroblocks (not that they will necessarily be there) will say it's miraculous, advanced users will find something to complain about, hard-nosed pros won't go for it, and you'll get some weird remarks from Amazon reviews such as those from people who wonder why it won't convert VHS to high definition.

Sorry you took my initial critique so hard, but for our purposes the VC500 will more than pay for itself in helping the O.P. get started, and should be more than adequate. I do get picky about hardware at times. But not everyone is such a noodge or an equipment snob like yours truly.

There are problems that you mention about a lot of user guides and how certain devices match up with VirtualDub. There's often a problem of some kind there, but I think we (and experienced users like yourself) can help the O.P. work through it.

And they call this fun. Go figure.

[sanlyn]

If you are thinking of using the same script and plugins that were used in your video, they won't be suitable for the samples we've seen so far in this thread. You can't use the same filters and the same settings for everything.

Ok, but I'm not telling him to apply these filters in your project, I know that every case and a case, but can be useful in some instance, and so he already has the, either way it'll be already equipped with some well necessary things
My goal was not derail your design line, but rather answer a specific request by john on how to become familiar with everything, regarding AvspMod he was useful only to open the location of the source video and add the command lines and save as .avs (not run anything through it)

No problem, I understand that. I thought from oldretiredguy's comments that we might be rushing things. But thanks for the uploads. Sometime many plugins are a real headache to find.

Ray is doing well so far. He apologizes for making us be patient with him. I can only imagine how much patience he's using to put up with our nonsense!

[RWH]

Oldretiredguy


What condition is the original tape in? If it’s bad. Then you’ve got a lot of fancy book lernin’ ahead. Or have to ship it to a pro. If it’s a lot better, who’s to say you couldn’t make an acceptable copy with a decent VCR and your USB device. I would try some less valuable tapes first. Make sure the VCR isn’t a tape eater.


Why not try the software that comes with the device? The caveat is that if you don’t use VirtualDub and or avisyth you will be chastised and ridiculed if you ask questions about it.
You could use Windows built in Movie Maker. You can add titles and stuff super easy.


Your success really depends on the original. Good luck.



Here's a tip if you don't know. At least in Firefox if you highlight text and right click on it, a menu will appear allowing to search for the selected item.

[RWH]

There's a free pdf on virtualdub. It's from 2005. I think there's a lot of good info there. It seems that the actual download page is down. I have a copy. Would it be sick and wrong if I posted it here?

http://www.packtpub.com/virtualdub/book

This works. Google cached or something?

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&ved=0CDgQFjAB&u...57155469,d.aWM

[Oldretiredguy]

Here is a bit f new info. I took the tape over to my neighbor's home and played it in his JVC machine. I verified first that the machine was in good operating condition. They do use it quite often to play the Disney tapes for the grand kids. Anyway, my original tape is in pristine condition and much much better than the sample I put up here on the forum. That clip was from the dvd copy that I had tried to make. So, the original is great and actually, I'm not sure how much it can be improved but what I'm going to do is to capture it using that Diamond device to my laptop computer. At that point, stop me if I'm wrong, I will have something that I can play around with. I am also going to send the original to DigitalFAQ for processing and copying to dvd. Once I get my dvd back I will make copies of it for my kids. Does all that sound ok?

Ray

[Oldretiredguy]

There's a free pdf on virtualdub. It's from 2005. I think there's a lot of good info there. It seems that the actual download page is down. I have a copy. Would it be sick and wrong if I posted it here?

http://www.packtpub.com/virtualdub/book

This works. Google cached or something?

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&ved=0CDgQFjAB&u...57155469,d.aWM

I just downloaded the link to the pdf file for this ebook. There doesn't seem to be a way to save it. Is this correct or is it just for reading online? Thanks for your help too. I appreciate it. I would love to be able to save this to my computer.

Ray

[jagabo]

Ok guys, I have read and reread this entire thread. It is still all gibberish to me. How can I ever figure out what you all are talking about? It is all written is some kind of strange code. All the abbreviations and so on have got me totally confused and frustrated. Is there a quick basic explanation on all the terminology that you are using?

Beyond the glossary recommended earlier, ask about specific terms if you still don't understand them.

[Oldretiredguy]

Hey RWH, please disregard the post I just left. I did find a way to save the pdf so I don't have a clue what I did wrong but now I have it. Thanks again.

Ray

[RWH]

Awesome Ray.

The biggest issue I've had with inexpensive devices is keeping the audio in synch. Keep your fingers crossed.

I'm real anxious to see your results.

I'm getting sick of that darn green cat.