subtitles to 3D - Can someone confirm this is right please

[mattyninegrand]

Hi

I have read many posts about adding subs to 3d films, i believe i'm doing right but want to confirm.

I have an .MKV file and an .SRT file, I can play the film in 3D and it places the subs from the .SRT in fine but they appear hanging off the right hand side of the screen and appearing on the left hand side of the screen. I have gone into the .srt file and put lots of spaces in front of each line of text and can move the subs across to the centre of the screen.

I have tried mkvmerge and it puts the subs in but they are over to the left, i follow the instructions which isnt exactly hard, click "add" then click "add" then click muxing, all reports back fine.

The subs are also a bit wierd to look at I suppose its the 2d subs over the 3d image thats doing it.

Is the only benefit of running it through mkvmerge is that the subs are in the .mkv file? and not a seperate .srt file

Ultimately, I would like to see 3d subs in the centre of the screen, do i take it that this is not achievable?

Thanks

M9G

[Cornucopia]

It is achievable, just not in any automated way. (Assuming this is a SbS Mkv) you should look at what I suggested to do manually in THIS post...

Scott

[mattyninegrand]

Hi thanks, yeah SBS and was reading that thread earlier but got a little confused as there is so much back and forth of trying stuff, I have created files in 3dsubtitler fine and when played back through VLC yep i'm getting subs on both sides, i ran it through mkvmerge but when the film plays on my tv, its trying to put the subs up but they are not letters just a mess of lines. I even tried the .mkv with the 3dsubtitler files through a media player and it wont even play them. If all fails then i know they work with the .srt file just need to get the spacing right on each line of text, being 2d subs they are not nice to look at in 3d but can read them.

I'm trying this route below at the mo but the last part of it takes hours, approx 8 for the size of the .mkv i'm doing.

How to make 3d Subtitle to work on all equipments ( 3d TV, PC, ...)
Step 1:
Use 3D Subtitler
Create 3d subtitle *.sup file
Duration ~ 5 minutes (depends cpu)

Step 2:
USE Tsmuxer
Transform movie *.mkv to *.ts
Duration ~ 15 minutes (depends cpu)

Step 3:
USE RipBot264
Transform movie *.ts to *.mkv again
Now in option use "Permanent subtitle" and use *.sup file from first step.
CQ = 18 (Best quality)
Duration ~ 4 hours (depends cpu)

The final result is 1 file movie .mkv with 3d permanent subtitle who works on every equipment

[Cornucopia]

Oh, so you're buning in the subtitle. Well, you lose some visual quality, but it will at least overcome the subs support issue.

Scott

[mattyninegrand]

I'm only burning it in as it was in the instructions, not bothered if its in or not I just want them to appear in the middle of the screen and be able to read them

[mattyninegrand]

I have tried output in 3dsubtitler to vobsub and then tried using subResync to convert back to .srt but when i run the conversion it asks me to identify each letter and to type in what its ment to be but i cant recognise what the images are

I have tried putting the .mkv with .sub/.idx/.xml onto a flash drive and the film freezes so that doesnt work.

[mattyninegrand]

Well the process finished, the last bit with ripbot264 took 8 hours, I play it with vlc and I'm getting the sbs pictures and each side has the subtitles in but when played back on 3dtv the pictures fine but yet again the subs go off the right side of the screen and back on the left side and the letters in the words arent there just alot of little messy lines.

Thanks for your input scott, looks like the route of manually doubling up on every sub and getting spacing right, for obvious reasons wanted to avoid this, i'll let you know how i get on

Before I start, I can if i get the spacing right get the .srt subs to appear in 2d on the screen when played in 3d, not pleasent on the eyes but readable, will doubling up make any improvement?

[mattyninegrand]

Right well i tried this ..... http://www.networkedmediatank.com/showthread.php?tid=47904

When the subs appear on the screen they look really good and no effect on the eyes. Only problem is like i've been getting with other conversions is in 2d they appear in both SBS videos when played on my pc and when i play on the tv in 2d i get the SBS video and the subs are joined and in the middle so look fine but when switch to 3d they do appear as one which is good but they start on the right side of the screen and go off the screen and wrap around and the tail end of the subs appears on the left side of the screen.

I have spent hours and hours on this just for a few nuvi speaking subs on avatar.

[mattyninegrand]

So now i have tried entering the text twice in the srt file as recommended and when played in 3D the subs appear twice, one on left and one on right - ggrrrrrrr

[adultmike]

regarding the "How to make 3d Subtitle to work on all equipments ( 3d TV, PC, ...)" message by mattyninegrand

see below!

[adultmike]

regarding the "How to make 3d Subtitle to work on all equipments ( 3d TV, PC, ...)" message by mattyninegrand

It is a long time I have troubles in making 3d movies with hard-wired subtitles.
I read your post and tried it. It works fine with one "tiny" -unexplained to me- problem.
when play the mkv with external subtitles on VLC or GOM player, all seems fine.
But when I hardwired them to the mkv, it seems that while the audio is synchronised with the subtitles, they both are gradually desynchronised with the images. The same phenomenon exists when I play it on my Panasonic TX42 plasma tv set.
I have an Acer Aspire 5738G with Windows 7 and 4GB Ram which I think is enough for such work loads and the movies play without jumping bugs! Has anybody have a clue? I have spend hundreds of hours trying to find a viable solution.
thanks
mike

[Cornucopia]

Yes, I have a clue. Many, in fact. But you folks (those needing 3D + non-BD3D-backup+ 3D subtitles onto 3DTV) don't seem to want to hear them.

Scott

[adultmike]

Thank you Scott. I would like to hear some of your clues anmd possible solutions regarding the use of RipBot264 in attaching permanent subtitles on .mkv container. There are so many other users having this problem.

[Cornucopia]

"Permanent" subtitles are only truly permanent when they are pixels of the video. All other variations aren't really permanent at all - they are either muxed into the container or sitting side-by-side with the container in a folder.
Which one are YOU referring to?

Scott

[netmask56]

Have a look at this post http://www.networkedmediatank.com/showthread.php?tid=47904

[TOOL] Convert .srt to 3D Half-SBS/TAB compatible .ass [UPDATED 30/09/2012] srt23Dass

This tool will convert a standard .srt subtitle file into a 3D Half-SBS or Half-TAB compatible .ass subtitle file. This is only useful for .mkv or .mk3d movie files.

For the converted subtitles to work, the player must understand and obey POS tags in the .ass file and use internal fonts in .mkv files. This is the case with the Popcorn Hour 200 and 300 series of players. Most PC software players will also work, but many hardware players and most TVs won’t. Although many players claim to support the .ass subtitle format, they will not understand most of the special tags that are part of the format. If that is your case, then you’re out of luck….

Just for reference, this is what you should see on your TV, depending on the movie type and TV mode:

Works quite well as long as your media player does ass. You may have to reduce the font size depending on your TV. I have a Samsung 65" ES 8000 and had to reduce the font size a tad

[Cornucopia]

BTW, @netmask56,
Looking at the link, that method seems flawed in that Half T/B is inverted. According to most industry specs, the Top view should be the LEFT view, not the RIGHT. So for things to work correctly, you will ALWAYS need to use Negative Depth for it to work correctly. Otherwise, it looks like a good tool (stick that one in my arsenal)!

@adultmike, Using this tool may or may not work with your system depending upon whether your system likes muxed subtitles, accepts .ass format text subs, etc. Since it is not clear what your files actually contain, nor the process you used to get them there, nor the system your are attempting to play them from (and to...), there's no realistic way to pin this down from a troubleshooting perspective. When you and mattyninegrand are ready to give up the full info, maybe we can finally get to the bottom of this. Otherwise, I have other things to do...

Scott

[adultmike]

Hi Scott,

I use this way to do the job.
Step 1:
Use 3D Subtitler
Create 3d subtitle *.sup file
Duration ~ 5 minutes (depends cpu)

Step 2:
USE Tsmuxer
Transform movie *.mkv to *.ts
Duration ~ 15 minutes (depends cpu)

Step 3:
USE RipBot264
Transform movie *.ts to *.mkv again
Now in option use "Permanent subtitle" and use *.sup file from first step.
CQ = 18 (Best quality)
Duration ~ 4 hours (depends cpu)

At the end, the subs are really become hardwired to the mkv file and can view them on any player or TVset. The problem is that both audio and subs are desynchronized with the video (audio is synchronised with the subs, but both not with the video). The strange thing is that when I played the source mkv movie with VLC player using the same external subtitles all things works fine. I can' find why I got this problem. My first hypothesis was that something happened wrong with the framerate. Using mkvinfo I found that the framerate was not defined but loading the source mkv in Ripbot264, I found that using 25 frames per second the calculated video duration matches to the actual video duration.
regards
mike

[adultmike]

Scott, here is more info about the source

Format : Matroska
Format version : Version 1
File size : 1.50 GiB
Duration : 1h 27mn
Overall bit rate : 2 461 Kbps
Encoded date : UTC 2012-08-24 11:48:35
Writing application : MKVMaker.exe
Writing library : Haali DirectShow Matroska Muxer 1.11.288.0

Video
ID : 1
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L4.0
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 5 frames
Codec ID : V_MPEG4/ISO/AVC
Duration : 1h 27mn
Nominal bit rate : 2 362 Kbps
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 800 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 2.40:1
Frame rate mode : Constant
Frame rate : 23.962 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.064
Writing library : x264 core 120 r2120 0c7dab9
Encoding settings : cabac=1 / ref=5 / deblock=1:0:0 / analyse=0x3:0x133 / me=umh / subme=9 / psy=1 / psy_rd=1.00:0.00 / mixed_ref=1 / me_range=16 / chroma_me=1 / trellis=2 / 8x8dct=1 / cqm=0 / deadzone=21,11 / fast_pskip=1 / chroma_qp_offset=-2 / threads=6 / sliced_threads=0 / nr=0 / decimate=1 / interlaced=0 / bluray_compat=0 / constrained_intra=0 / bframes=3 / b_pyramid=0 / b_adapt=2 / b_bias=0 / direct=3 / weightb=1 / open_gop=0 / weightp=2 / keyint=240 / keyint_min=24 / scenecut=40 / intra_refresh=0 / rc_lookahead=60 / rc=2pass / mbtree=1 / bitrate=2362 / ratetol=1.0 / qcomp=0.60 / qpmin=0 / qpmax=69 / qpstep=4 / cplxblur=20.0 / qblur=0.5 / vbv_maxrate=25000 / vbv_bufsize=25000 / nal_hrd=vbr / ip_ratio=1.40 / aq=1:1.00
Language : English
Default : No
Forced : No

Audio
ID : 2
Format : AAC
Format/Info : Advanced Audio Codec
Format profile : LC
Codec ID : A_AAC
Duration : 1h 27mn
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Channel positions : Front: L R
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Compression mode : Lossy
Delay relative to video : -83ms
Language : English
Default : No
Forced : No

[Cornucopia]

That's still incomplete info (last post wasn't posted when I started this), but I'll have a go at it anyway...

Have you checked before and after each step to see synchronization (check both on multiple apps on PC and via hardware/settop if you can). If everything is ok up until the RipBot264, it's probably a setting in an AVISynth script that it uses. BTW, by "hardwired" I'm now guessing that you mean the subtitle has been burned into the pixels of the movie. In that case, it is of course impossible for synchronization to change after-the-fact (because how can the video not be synchronized with itself?), so that must be due to something mis-applied during the combining stage.
For viewing, you don't need to actually "process" the V+Sub, you just need a sub editor that allows them to be seen simultaneously, so you have a few more choices to work with.
Note that Picture-based subs (which is what is output from 3Dsubtitler) often do NOT have any timing info inherent in the file format. That makes them easy to be misunderstood.
Will get back to you with more options later...

Scott

[adultmike]

Thank you Scott for the useful info you let me know. Actually yes, things are fine before using Ripbot264. I will try to check Avisynch just trying to find out the reason. I did not get your saying "you just need a sub editor that allows them to be seen simultaneously, so you have a few more choices to work with". I used Subtitle Edit but things become worst as long as trying to save the subtitles in MicroDvd or Subrio format).
However let approace the subject from another point of you... I can connect my Pc to 3DTv set. The problrm is that the TV does not recognise the 3dmovies when iit is played by VLC or Gom player, so instead of compining the two halfs of the screen, it makes a mess by doubling the whole screen. Is there any way (eg in preferences/settings of the players) to overcome this problem? On the other hand, using Stereoscopic player is ok but this software does not support subtitles at all....
am

[adultmike]

Also the same problem exists when trying to combine all in one using mkvmerge-gui 5.8!

[netmask56]

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/346523-subtitles-to-3D-Can-someone-confirm-this-is-...=1#post2197059

Using this tool the important steps in mkvmergegui is to add the subtitle and "attach" the font before muxing.

[adultmike]

thank you
netmask65

I will give a try...could you explain "...to add the subtitle and "attach" the font before muxing"...you mean to use mkvextract-gui and then to remux them using the tsmuxer?

[netmask56]

thank you
netmask65

I will give a try...could you explain "...to add the subtitle and "attach" the font before muxing"...you mean to use mkvextract-gui and then to remux them using the tsmuxer?

No no no!!! The whole thing is done in mkvmergegui (MKVMERGEGUI)you don't use tsmuxer. Just add the files into mkvmerge and then on the next tab called Attachments add the font and then hit the "start muxing" button down the bottom

[adultmike]

thanks netmask56, it works perfect on my Pc, no desyncrhonisation, 3d subtitles are there. On a TVset however, in 3D mode the subtitle has the usual problem whenever one tries to watch 2D subtitle on a 3D video. Obviously the telly become confused trying to play such a file....
Is there anyway the 3dTV set to detect the 3d effect played on a particular pc player (connected with HDMI) or it is impossible?

[adultmike]

I have persuade myself that only the RipBot264 works ok with imprinted subtitles. I dob't know if other users have been confronted with such problems of desynchronisation as those I mention in earlier messages. Please, let me know about, just to know that it is my fault of utilitity's bug...
regards,
am

[Cornucopia]

Look, if you are going the burned-in subs route, ANY app or combination of apps that burn-in subs will work, assuming you: 1. can accept the video & subs filetypes, and 2. have prepared the subs' 3D layout to match the videos' 3D layout.

This includes AVISynth, FFMPEG, Virtualdub, many NLE's, etc.

I will create some "example" 2D and "3D" subs later this evening (while I'm watching the US Election returns) to maybe help clear the air. Unfortunately, I believe you are still confused about all this.

There are ways to avoid burning in the subs as well, though much here is player-dependent, but a lot can be worked out by correctly visually pre-processing the subs for the specific 3D layout.

Scott

[adultmike]

The truth is that I'm not familiar with video editing, however i can follow the instructions given here from the most experienced folks. I choose burned-in subs because I realised that the problem is context (tv-player) depended and until now the method with Ripbot264 gave me the most promised results...
While I will be waiting for your examples, I will do some more attemps and post a detailed protocol of what i did, hoping that finally the problem will be solved with your help. If you need some particular info about, please Scott, let me know.
cheers,
mike

[adultmike]

Maybe I have put the problem in wrong base. Maybe is better to ask for the options while using TsMuxer. Do I have to checck the general track info (add change fps, picture timing info, insert SPS/PPS) and those for Ripbot264, both using to produced burned-in subtitles to mkv files. I little bit explanation should be useful for every noobie user and would be appreciated !!

[Cornucopia]

So here's the samples I was working on...

This image shows a normal 2D sub (in front of a WHITE video) as seen on a 2DTV screen (or 3DTV in 2D mode):


This image shows a normal 2D sub as seen on a 3DTV in 3D mode (SbS layout):


This image shows what you should do to a 2D sub to process it to make it a "3D sub", even though it is still a standard sub as far as the file format goes. If you view it on a 2DTV (or 3DTV in 2D mode) it looks like this:


This image shows what that "3D-processed" 2D sub will look like on a 3DTV when in 3D mode (SbS layout). This example has the subs existing on the plane of the stereo window (not in front or behind):


As you can see, all of these subs are REALLY 2D subs, so if your media player (even the one in the TV itself) can accept a 2D sub WHILE in 3D mode, all it takes is some processing of the subs to the correct layout to enable it being shown correctly while in 3D mode (using that same layout).

Note: you can ONLY use it for the one layout, and you CANNOT use the same sub for both 2D and 3D modes.

Scott

edit: whoops! swapped images there for a minute. OK, fixed now.

P.s. The main problem is with the formatting tools, including the use of condensed-pitch fonts, and the precise horizontal & vertical alignments necessary. If you go with bitmapped-based subs instead of text-based subs, the processing job is easier, but you have to get it exactly right the first time since you can't easily go back and re-edit & re-render, like you could in text-based fonts. Depends alot on whether your media player app(s) prefer text-based or bitmap-based subs...