Vegas Movie Studio 10 crash

[magillagorilla]

I think I already know what my issue is but maybe I could get some feedback.

When I edit SD (720x480 HUFFYUV) video I never have a problem in Vegas. When I am working on HD projectsm mixed media (AVCHD, AVI, MOV) I clip along for 20-30 minutes then Vegas crashes. This happens after I do any kind of file access activity, like adding a clip or previewing a clip. The application freezes, never to return.

My theory is that I don't have enough RAM or swap space. Does Vegas have its own swap file or does it use system virtual memory or does it rely totally on RAM?

System: Intel Core 2 Quad Q8300 2.4Ghz 4GB RAM 3x1TB SATA 3Gbps 7,200 RPM drives, Windows 7 x64

[Cauptain]

Questions...

For OS 64bits 4GB is low.

My old system has 8gb. My new have 16GB. No problem to edit any files (mixed or no) in 1080 on VEGAS.

But try use FFDSHOW to decode files.



Claudio

[edDV]

System: Intel Core 2 Quad Q8300 2.4Ghz 4GB RAM 3x1TB SATA 3Gbps 7,200 RPM drives, Windows 7 x64

You should add this to your VHelp profile.

When I edit SD (720x480 HUFFYUV) video I never have a problem in Vegas. When I am working on HD projectsm mixed media (AVCHD, AVI, MOV) I clip along for 20-30 minutes then Vegas crashes. This happens after I do any kind of file access activity, like adding a clip or previewing a clip. The application freezes, never to return.

It could be RAM (due to 64bit W7) but I suspect disk allocation issues.

First, your older SD (720x480 HUFFYUV) video could be easily handled on an upper P4 for CPU and RAM requirements. No stress for a Q8300.

AVCHD decode and "AVI, MOV" SD upscale? imply heavy CPU/RAM demand if the project is HD.

So to proceed we need more def of your source formats and your project settings. Please add this info.

My theory is that I don't have enough RAM or swap space. Does Vegas have its own swap file or does it use system virtual memory or does it rely totally on RAM?

I'll be back later to explain Vegas swap space (not the same as Windows swap space) but can point you to the setting. Vegas defines the temp storage space as "Prerendered files folder" spec'd in project setting. This should not be placed on the OS drive (some exception for limited laptops). Ideally, OS, video source files and swap (Ppf) are on separate physical drives and all should have free space.

I don't have access to a Vegas Movie Studio 10 here but this is where you set the "Prerendered files folder" in Vegas Pro. Adobe Premiere or Photoshop call this the "scratch disk". If possible, you don't want this on your OS drive.

[magillagorilla]

edDV thatns a ton. That's what I was looking for. I remember that from Adobe Photoshop but I didn't know the analagous in VMS. I assume my issue is disk I/O, disk space or RAM issue. Anywy I switched the "Prerendered" location to a non-OS drive. Any other tips would be appreciated.

[budwzr]

Do you use a codec pack? If so, try updating.

Also, have you scanned your disc for errors? Maybe parts of videos reside in bad sectors.

After a crash, try moving the active files to a different folder, then see if they crash again.

It sounds like a drive access problem. Maybe your HD is getting long in the tooth too

[magillagorilla]

I can check the drives but they are less than a year old and likely OK. I hope they are OK, it would be a pain in the ass to replace them.

[edDV]

Back to the original problem, it would help to know what "mixed formats" you are adding to an HD timeline. It should be no problem with supported camcorder formats like HDV or AVCHD but some digital camera formats may need conversion before Vegas can cope with them. Generally ps and ts files (except HDV) must be converted to mpg before import to Vegas.

...
When I am working on HD projectsm mixed media (AVCHD, AVI, MOV) I clip along for 20-30 minutes then Vegas crashes. This happens after I do any kind of file access activity, like adding a clip or previewing a clip. The application freezes, never to return.

I'll do a quick overview of Vegas timeline renders. Lets assume a project format of 1920x1080i. When you move a clip to the timeline it is not converted. It is read with Vegas of other system installed codecs. When transitions or other filters are added to the clip, Vegas converts affected frames of the input format clips to an RGB version of the project format with the filters applied. These frame become the files stored in the pre-rendered files folder. For supported formats and filters, Vegas will attempt to render in the background during a timeline preview. Depending on your CPU, Vegas may not be able to do the format conversion and filtering "on the fly" so will become sluggish or bog down to a stop. You can avoid this by selectively pre-rendering a marked region (under Tools or Shift+M). These pre-rendered frames will also be stored in the pre-rendered files folder so as you can see, these temp files can get large depending on the complexity of the project. Undo levels consume more temp file space. If your disk fills, rendering will stop so it is a good idea to monitor free space and leave plenty of buffer space.

When you export the timeline with "Render AS", all the timelne frames including the RGB temp files will be converted to the export format. In smart render projects, unfiltered frames will be copied to the output file. Only the filtered frames will be rendered.

[magillagorilla]

I was at a wedding out of town and used several cameras. There is a receptopn in a week and with any lock I can produce a video for the family. My underwater camera, Pentax P&S, shoots 1280x720 30p MJPEG AVI. My Nikon D7000 shoots 1920x1080 24p h.264 MOV. My Canon HF100 shoots 1920x1080 24p (I set it there to match the Nikon frame rate) AVCHD (h.264 in an M2TS wrapper).

The original plan for a 2 camera shoot with the Canon in the back with a wide shot on a tripod. I was going to get in close with the Nikon (camera 2). It was a beach wedding and my Nikon lens fogged up, on the inside and became useless. I had no other lens and limited spare gear because I was also in charge of my 2, 8, and 9 year old kids (the three reasons I was late). My wife was in the wedding party. I was smart enough to stash my Zoom H2 recorder next to the action or I would have had no usable audio. So I have a 1 camera shot and some OK audio.

After the wedding, back in the airconditioning, my Nikon lens un-fogged. So for the reception dinner I was able to run both cameras. The underwater camera was used to get the kids and other relatives swimming in the pool over the wedding weekend. Crappy Pentax camera but very fun shots.

So those are my 3 sources MJPEG and h.264, various wrappers.

I am going to crank it all down to DVD.

Maybe I should mass convert all clips to MPEG2 720x480 29.97i, then pull the clips in to my NLE. This would ease the processing stress on the PC. This is my last resort strategy. I would like to produce an SD DVD and a HD version (x264/h264 for computer playback). But if I can't get Vegas and my PC to cooperate I may have to stick with an SD version.

[budwzr]

That sounds like a fun project. I like those multicam shoots.

[magillagorilla]

Ya, multi cam is really fun. I've done it before. I was really upset when I realized the Nikon would not work for the shoot. It blew my whole game plan. I didn't set the Canon camcorder in the best spot for a single cam shoot. I have to do a boaring 1 cam shot of the wedding ceremony. I had 2 other lenses in the hotel room, but there was no time to get them.

Here is a diagram of the shoot. I had to position CAM1 off center to avoid lens flare. The subjects were backlit. The planned cam2 positions are marked, but the camera was not functional.

[poisondeathray]

I'll bet it's quicktime causing the problem

Try using an old version like 7.5.x , or transcoding the MOV clips to something else

The newer versions have been documented to cause crashes in vegas

[magillagorilla]

You may be on to something PDR. If I recall I had some lag and freezing problems on the last 2 CAM production which was AVCHD and MOV. Maybe I should just dump it all to MPEG2. I don't have enough HDD to dup it to RAW AVI, I tried, it didn't work out so well. RAW HD AVI is appearently very big.

[edDV]

I was at a wedding out of town and used several cameras. There is a receptopn in a week and with any lock I can produce a video for the family. My underwater camera, Pentax P&S, shoots 1280x720 30p MJPEG AVI. My Nikon D7000 shoots 1920x1080 24p h.264 MOV. My Canon HF100 shoots 1920x1080 24p (I set it there to match the Nikon frame rate) AVCHD (h.264 in an M2TS wrapper).

OK, complex timeline all needing re-render even for simple cuts. This can be attempted in Vegas or source can be pre-processed.

1. Canon HF100 shoots 1920x1080 24p, h.264 M2TS
2. Nikon D7000 shoots 1920x1080 24p h.264 MOV
3. Pentax P&S, shoots 1280x720 30p MJPEG AVI

First, I'd test to see if Vegas (and your computer) can handle it. Do some test edits with the HF100 clips on a Vegas 1920x1080 24p project setting. Do some simple cuts and dissolves. Render the timeline and export.

If that works add some clips from the Nikon. If Vegas won't take the MOV container, externally convert container to mpg or mp4. If these clips are short you may want to recode to 35 Mbps MPeg2.

After that you can test some Pentax 1280x720 30p clips. For these shots you might want to redefine 30p as 24p for 80% speed. Later you can speed up or slow down with a Vegas velocity envelope.

Overall this project calls for a pre-conversion to uncompressed (with pro RAID rig) or pre-conversion to Cineform or other digital intermediate for ease of single disk editing. You may want to try the Cineform Neoscene demo and a 1920x1080 24p Vegas project.


PS: Your HF100 and Nikon clips are most likely not real 24p but some form of telecine 60i so if Vegas isn't handling a 24p project with these sources, you can try a 60i project setting instead. Vegas should be able to handle 30p MJPEG in a 60i project... By the way, Neoscene also does a good 60i -> 24p inverse telecine from AVCHD to 24p Cineform digital intermediate so it may be your 24p solution as well.

[magillagorilla]

I think PDR is on to something with the MOV files. The crashes seem to happen most often when I am working with the MOV files from the Nikon. I'll transcode a batch of them to MP4 and see if that makes a difference. Also, I'm sure there are updates to Vegas 10 I haven't installed. Hopefully it's just that simple, a new machine build is not in the cards for me right now, though I'd really like to.

[poisondeathray]

edDV is correct => HF100 is definitely not native progressive 24p (it has hard pulldown 3:2) , and I'm fairly certain Vegas won't IVTC correctly . But I'm fairly certain the Nikon shoots 24p Native

magilla - If transcoding to an intermediate , I would use something other than MP4, because I think MP4 gets routed through quicktime API in vegas (I think they changed this in the newer versions, maybe part of the reason was because QT is so unstable on PC's, even Adobe has moved away from QT)

[budwzr]

When I import an .MP4, Vegas always opens with the Sony AVC codecs. That's Pro10.

The Nikon .MOV files are NOT going to be Apple flavored H.264. Only a Mac or Quicktime can create those.

[poisondeathray]

When I import an .MP4, Vegas always opens with the Sony AVC codecs. That's Pro10.

Exactly , but Pro 10 changed a few things around - AVC in MP4 is no longer routed through QT - but it's "equivalent" release was Vegas Movie Studio 11

Pro 9's "eqivalent" is VMS10 , and I think Pro 9 still routed things through QT, so I'm assuming VMS10 also still uses QT - which is the version he is using

[budwzr]

When I import an .MP4, Vegas always opens with the Sony AVC codecs. That's Pro10.

Exactly , but Pro 10 changed a few things around - AVC in MP4 is no longer routed through QT - but it's "equivalent" release was Vegas Movie Studio 11

Pro 9's "eqivalent" is VMS10 , and I think Pro 9 still routed things through QT, so I'm assuming VMS10 also still uses QT - which is the version he is using

I see what you're saying. Yeah, they upgrade MS before Pro so MS always is a version number ahead.

[poisondeathray]

The Nikon .MOV files are NOT going to be Apple flavored H.264. Only a Mac or Quicktime can create those.

Everything .mov is "apple" flavored . mov by definition is quicktime

The hardware is licensed from them, and Canon DSLR's use the exact same compression module

[budwzr]

Well, from what I read, only Quicktime can produce an Apple compliant .MOV. Vegas cannot. So I assume a camera cannot either, they are just using the container.

I could be wrong though.

Hey, glad to be reading your posts again. Seems you went on hiatus recently.

[edDV]

With these formats, the first thing you should do is upgrade to the latest Vegas version*. There have been vast improvements handling AVCHD and other h.264. 24p isn't directly supported in the Movie Studio versions, but in Platinum v10/11 you can fudge the project setting to 24p using the preview window project properties arrow. You really should be using Pro 10e for a complex project.

Your chosen project is on the bleeding cutting edge.


*Alternative is to use the money to buy Cineform Neoscene which will handle format conversions to the digital intermediate including a very good inverse telecine to 24p.

[budwzr]

I'll go out on a limb, and say that you can probably just remux those .mov's to .mp4 and Vegas will use it's own AVC codec to open them.

[magillagorilla]

The reason I used 24p on the HF100 was an attempt to match the highest frame rate of the Nikon in 1080. The Nikon will do 30p in 720 but the HF100 will not do 720. I suspected that the HF100 was recording in 60i and just flagging it as pulldown or 30p. One clue is when you shuttle one of the HF100's 24p AVCHD files forward during playback on PC, it beraks up and you can see interlaced blocks in the image.

I have great distain for interlaceing. It just a shotty way to increase temporal smoothness and is cumbersome to scale and edit. I thought I had sworn it off until I realized my HF100 was in fact not true progressive but merely trickery performed on a 60i capture. There is really nothing I can do about that. My next camcorder must do real 60p.

Seeing that my HF100 is 60i, is there any advantage in switching it to a progressive mode? The progressive footage "looks" progressive when played back. Is it just all flagging tricks in the video wrapper?

Vegas pro 10 is not an option for me. This is a hobby and I am cash poor. $600 would be better spent upgrading my PC. But... $45 for Vegas Home 11 is closer to reality. Since I already have CD architect and Sound Forge, I just need Vegas. Neoscene looks neat but I'm not sure my crappy videography would benefit from it.

I have been setting my project to 1080 24p. Everything looks good in preview, well, when it's not crashing. I'm pretty convenced that MOV is my gremlin.

"Your chosen project is on the bleeding cutting edge." Yes I am pushing my hardware and software a bit too hard. I think I can get results though. I have to produce this thing before next Friday, so I'll press forward. This is my lot in life. I have the knowhow to do things but no money to procure the right tools.

I used to do contract work integrating 3D models in to 3D laser scanned plots for a survey company. I would place objects within 3D plots then skin and animate scenes. All on a P4 2.4Ghz machine with 1GB of RAM. Except the rendering, for that I built a rendering farm with borrowed machines. It took infinate time and patients. As I get older I am running out of both of those things.

[edDV]

...
Seeing that my HF100 is 60i, is there any advantage in switching it to a progressive mode? The progressive footage "looks" progressive when played back. Is it just all flagging tricks in the video wrapper?

You seem to lack an understanding of interlace, telecine and inverse telecine. I covered it in some depth in this thread also explaining the "whys". Most consumer and most pro camcorders telecine 24p (23.976p) to 60i (59.94i) because native 24p editing is relatively new and not generally available to consumers or classic broadcast workflow. Telecined 60i is well supported and goes back to the beginnings of monochrome broadcast and has continued through VHS, DVD and Blu-Ray.
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/334839-interlace-help/page3

I have been setting my project to 1080 24p. Everything looks good in preview, well, when it's not crashing. I'm pretty convenced that MOV is my gremlin.

"Your chosen project is on the bleeding cutting edge." Yes I am pushing my hardware and software a bit too hard. I think I can get results though. I have to produce this thing before next Friday, so I'll press forward. This is my lot in life. I have the knowhow to do things but no money to procure the right tools.

First update Vegas to the latest version for your product, or get Platinum 11 and update that.

If you are on a deadline, I'd first run through the tests I outlined above in 23.976p project mode. Be aware Vegas is tricky for inverse telecine and I thought those features were lacking in the Movie Studio version. How are you setting your project to 23.976p?

If you have any problems change project to AVCHD* 60i (59.94i) upper field first mode. In 60i mode the HF100 will be native telecine. The Nikon file needs to be examined with Mediainfo to see if it is telecine or flagged 24p. Either way it can be handled by Vegas if the clip properties match the clip format. MJPeg 30p should be accepted into a 60i project so long as the cilp properties show 29.97p.

If you lack patience, proceed directly to a 60i project setting. "24p" is not supposed to be supported in the $49 version of Movie Studio and needs some user hacks in Platinum 11.

How are you planning to distribute this? Blu-Ray? As a file?


* Version 11 Platinum has the AVCHD 60i project preset.

[magillagorilla]

In VMS, if you go to the project settings, I believe 23.97 is an option. That is how I set it. However, all the other settings like frame size and progressive/interlaced need to be manyally set. There just is not a template for 1080 23.97p. I am also a bit ignorant on why the project settings matter anyway. I can "Render As" to anything I want. All the project settings seem to do is display the footage in the preview properly and I guess it helps with "frame" editing on the timeline.

I'll run media info on all the clip types. I get the general concept of telcine. In fact, I'm pretty sure it was your post that educated me. I was referring to some cameras that cheat and record "24p" in 60i. So basically the image is 60i with a bunch of repeated frames "telcine" and not real 24p.

I very much understand interlace. I've been restoring VHS footage as another project. I am well versed in fields, frames, interlac, de-interlace. I am restoring my VHS to 60p using a smart bober. The target playback device being computer displays.

My lack of patients is caused by my poor tools. I'm no pro but my skills exceed my tools. It's like turning a standard bolt with a metric wrench. It'll work, eventually.

My target formats are SD DVD (not AVCHD DVD) and a HD mp4 version for computer playback.

[poisondeathray]

Vegas definitely doesn't handle "24p in 60i" AVCHD correctly

What you could do is use batch scripts to IVTC your HF100 footage to an intermediate, something like high bitrate I-frame MPEG2 in a transport stream. There are avisynth batch script generators available, and batch intermediate tools , some based on ffmpeg. "khaver" made some GUI's a while back for this purpose. I think there might be some newer versions available at the end of that thread:

http://www.hv20.com/showthread.php?25044-Batch-Intermediate-Creation-Utilities


While you are at it you could process the MOV footage as well (without the IVTC)

[budwzr]

Hey Magill, that interlace crap dates back to the invention of television. Not worth learning all about except just to learn to avoid it or get rid of it.

[edDV]

In VMS, if you go to the project settings, I believe 23.97 is an option. That is how I set it. However, all the other settings like frame size and progressive/interlaced need to be manyally set. There just is not a template for 1080 23.97p. I am also a bit ignorant on why the project settings matter anyway. I can "Render As" to anything I want. All the project settings seem to do is display the footage in the preview properly and I guess it helps with "frame" editing on the timeline.

I'm unfamiliar with your version. Most early Vegas Movie Studio versions started with an export format spec such as DVD and that was your project setting. Everything imported was prepared for DVD export. HDV and AVCHD were not directly supported then.

Vegas Movie Studio Platinum 10 includes a limited set of project settings including AVCHD 60i or 50i but no 24p or 30p. The way you get to 24p is by editing project settings from the timeline window. The frame rate pull down window does not include 23.976 but you can type it in and save as a user template. It helps to have Vegas Pro so you can compare the missing choices.

The project setting defines the timeline format. All other formats are rendered to the project format during preview. This is the way to get IWSIWYG preview. Export can be at the project format or other. During "render as" export you will see an approximate export preview in the preview window. This helps ID 4:3 letterbox or other issues without having to wait for the full render.

In your case, I wouldn't trust preview. You should test small clips and judge the final "render as" result. I'd first render at project format (e.g. 1920x1080 23.976p or 59.94i) to minimize variables.

I'll run media info on all the clip types. I get the general concept of telcine. In fact, I'm pretty sure it was your post that educated me. I was referring to some cameras that cheat and record "24p" in 60i. So basically the image is 60i with a bunch of repeated frames "telcine" and not real 24p.

Telecine has repeated fields that are removed in the inverse telecine process to restore the original 23.976p.

Normal telecine - inverse telecine looks like this. It is a lossless process if done correctly. There are variations such as so called 24F and 24pA.


60i and 30i are the same thing. Actual field rate is 59.94.

The white left half of this drawing is what your HF100 outputs in 24p mode.

I very much understand interlace. I've been restoring VHS footage as another project. I am well versed in fields, frames, interlac, de-interlace. I am restoring my VHS to 60p using a smart bober. The target playback device being computer displays.

That only works for native interlace source. That doesn't work for film (24 fps) based telecine source unless you insert a 2:3:2:3 frame repeat pattern. To do that you must first inverse telecine to 23.976. Separate subject... but you will need to do the same for a progressive DVD.

My lack of patients is caused by my poor tools. I'm no pro but my skills exceed my tools. It's like turning a standard bolt with a metric wrench. It'll work, eventually.

You use the method intended for your editor version which is most likely limited to 60i for AVCHD. If you force the editor into 24p mode, expect trouble. Test every step.

My target formats are SD DVD (not AVCHD DVD) and a HD mp4 version for computer playback.

A 23.976 project can be downsized for progressive DVD with good results. It can also be encoded directly to h.264 in mp4 container but probably not in your version of Vegas.

A 60i project is converted to a 480i DVD. Vegas uses a simple deinterlace/downscale which is not the best for telecine source. Extenally you could inverse telecine before downscale for a better Progressive DVD result.

If you spec a progressive DVD in Vegas, all frames will be interpolated 60i to 23.976p causing more quality loss.

[edDV]

Hey Magill, that interlace crap dates back to the invention of television. Not worth learning all about except just to learn to avoid it or get rid of it.

There is no getting rid of it. You need to deal with it.

[edDV]

Vegas definitely doesn't handle "24p in 60i" AVCHD correctly

Fortunately, I've only had to deal with 60i AVCHD so far. Also 30p AVCHD Lite.