interlace help

[edDV]

So if I set De Interlace to OFF in the dropdown list it will take my Interlaced VOB file and just pass it thought so my output will be Interlaced?

Does anyone know for sure?

Sorry, I was mistaken about Handbreak. The x264 codec supports interlace (using MBAFF mode) but the Handbreak GUI defaults to a weave deinterlace when all filters are turned off. I'll search for another free x264 GUI. I normally use Sony or Mainconcept AVC encoders that do support h.264 interlace.

The common consumer GUI's over x264 will first deinterlace to progressive, then compress, then offer a re-interlace at the end. This is not what you want to do with a show like "Land of the Lost".

[edDV]

Without getting over technical, let's review your options for a mixed format SD interlace show like "Land of the Lost". This type show format was typical for effects intensive 70's-90's scifi shows like "Star Trek, Next Generation", "Max Headroom" and "Stargate". Similar issues are encountered with animated series and transcoded PAL series (e.g. SD BBC shows).

Option 1: Compress it but keep it interlace.

The reason you would want to do this is to avoid encoding deinterlace artifacts into the file. By keeping the file interlace, you pass the deinterlace task to the player or HDTV. Over time, the quality of hardware deinterlacers (HDTV sets, media players or computer display cards) will continue to improve. An interlace file benefits from this future technology. You also speed encoding because a quality software deinterlace is compute intensive.

The downside is some media players don't have hardware deinterlacers or will not deinterlace an h.264 file. This may vary by the type of file container. So you should test your file on the players you intend to use before converting your full collection.

Some players will take interlace in and pass the stream to the display without deinterlace (e.g. 480i or 1080i out). In this case the task falls to the HDTV hardware deinterlacer. This will also provide the best playback on a classic interlace CRT or interlace video projector.

Another issue with interlace AVC is you will hit a compression limit at a higher bit rate vs. deinterlaced AVC. That limit will probably be in the 1000-2000 kbps range depending on noise or other source quality issues. I'm assuming you will want to watch this on a full size screen.


Option 2: Software deinterlace, then compress.

A simple blend deinterlace to 480 30p will show blurred motion over the full show and double frames during effects scenes that contain telecined film. A bob deinterlace to 480 60p will show field expansion artifacts that will be compounded with low bit rate compression. To get to 500 Kbps you may need to accept blend deinterlace artifacts. A high quality deinterlace will add considerably to encode time. Also any deinterlace artifacts will be permanently encoded into the file.


Option 3: Software decomb (Handbreak), then compress.

Decomb only applies deinterlace to the frames that need it most. It leaves the rest in weave mode. It is a quick and dirty alternative to full deinterlace.
https://trac.handbrake.fr/wiki/Decomb

[nymph4444]

So I would gess I sould pick say one of the optins in the De Interlace dropdown list?
Because I would not want these artifacts like you just showed me.

Now just 2. more things.

I looked up what Telacene is and google say it is the process of making Film into TV shows or something like this.
I may have miss understood it but what is this in Handbrake?

And I know what De Interlace is what is Decome I think in Handbrake?

[edDV]

I explained telecine serveral times above and provided refernece links. Did you read them?

In order to inverse telecine, the file must be telecine (i.e. shot on film and 59.94 fields per second). "Land of the Lost" is not telecine. It was shot mostly with TV cameras. Run media info on your "Buck Rogers" and see if it is telecine or progressive. Post the media info tree view here.

In handbrake, the inverse telecine filter is called "Detelecine". If works very well on digital source. Set on "default".
https://trac.handbrake.fr/wiki/Telecine

Decomb is explained in the link I provided.
https://trac.handbrake.fr/wiki/Decomb

In Handbrake set "Decomb" to "Default".

[nymph4444]

I whent to the link you gave to Hanbrake and read about Decomb

It says that if a video need De Interlace it will do it.
So I think I will leave it on all the time.

And they do tell you what the diferance it between De Interlace and Decomb.

But I could not get it.
It says something about Decomb only does De Interlace if it needs it but the De Interlaceer will do it to every frame and loos picture Q.

Or do I have this mixd up can you explane it?

[edDV]

I whent to the link you gave to Hanbrake and read about Decomb

It says that if a video need De Interlace it will do it.
So I think I will leave it on all the time.

And they do tell you what the diferance it between De Interlace and Decomb.

But I could not get it.
It says something about Decomb only does De Interlace if it needs it but the De Interlaceer will do it to every frame and loos picture Q.

Or do I have this mixd up can you explane it?

That is what they say. It looks like a crude way to go about it. It may be good enough for you but to do it correctly you need to examine the source for telecine pattern. If yes, use "Detelecine", if no you have three choices in Handbrake.

Weave - all filters set off. It will also apply a weave to hard telecine or progressive source.

Deinterlace - choice of fast, slow, slower

Decomb - see manual

Missing in handbrake is the output interlace option that I hoped was there. I'm looking for an alternate x264 GUI that passes interlace from source (aka x264 MBAFF mode).

[jagabo]

If you deinterlace or decomb telecined film you will end up with jerky video. Every 5th frame will be a duplicate.

[nymph4444]

One more thing.

After the Top Field is drawn then the Bottom Field is drawn does the screen go BLCK then start all over again?

[edDV]

One more thing.

After the Top Field is drawn then the Bottom Field is drawn does the screen go BLCK then start all over again?

On an interlace CRT the past field is fading while the next is scanned. It never goes completely black unless the video goes black.

Progressive LCD monitors attempt to fade to black before each frame refresh. Progressive plasma monitors actually reach black before each frame refresh.

[jagabo]

After the Top Field is drawn then the Bottom Field is drawn does the screen go BLCK then start all over again?

It works like the animation I posted earlier:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/334839-interlace-help?p=2083644&viewfull=1#post2083644

When the electron beam strikes a phosphor it starts glowing and immediately starts to fade. By the time the electron beam comes around again (the next field) the phosphor has faded away.

[edDV]

Above I said

On an interlace CRT the past field is fading while the next is scanned. It never goes completely black unless the video goes black.

What I meant was the full picture doesn't go black unless the video goes to black. An individual phosphor dot may or may not fade completely to black during a two field scan but it comes close. This would depend on the properties of the phosphor and the scanning beam width. If the beam is wide, a particular phosphor dot may get some spill from the opposite field scan. This is more likely to happen with slot mask or Trinitron striped aperture grille screens.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aperture_grille
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinitron
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_mask

[Smithcraft]

You are a good man edDV!

SC

[edDV]

I'm just dumping my brain while I still remember this stuff. Not much other use for video history.


PS: If this was computer tech, there would be several museums.

[nymph4444]

I just read you reply to me about if I set de interlace to OFF and you told me it will then do a weave deinterlace

What is this?

[edDV]

I just read you reply to me about if I set de interlace to OFF and you told me it will then do a weave deinterlace

What is this?

Weave is a simple combination of field 1 and field 2 like Jagabo showed. If the source is interlace like "Land of the Lost" you will get line split during motion like this...

...

Telecine video would show three progressive frames followed by two split field frames (double image) like this



Notice the difference? Split lines vs. double vision fields?

This is how you tell if your source is standard 59.94 field per second interlace (line split) vs. telecine (field split on two frames followed by three progressive frames).

You can encode either permanently into your 480 29.97p or deal with them before encoding. You fix line split with deinterlace. You fix split fields with inverse telecine. Deinterlace results in 480 29.97p, inverse telecine results in 480 23.976p suitable for progressive DVD.

[nymph4444]

OK so it will do me better to pick a De Interlace option from the dropdown list then set it to OFF.
What would be a good option to pick SLOW?
I mean for a show like Land Of The Lost that is Interlaced.

And I re Read about Detelecene and I get it now if they take Film at 24 fps and put it on TV at 29.97 fps the frame rate will not match so they have to ad frames.
If it is Hard Telecene they Copy frames and put them in.
If it is Soft Telecene they just use Flags that tell the DVD or Video or whatever to show a frame longer.

I would like Soft but Handbrake just has Costum Default OFF
What do I use?

I know this is just used if I have something that is Filmed.

[nymph4444]

OK now one thing about Prograsive CRT screens?

They draw the image

Top Field
Bottom Field
Top Field
Bottom Field

And keep going like this all the way down the screen.

Now when you draw the image like this you are mixing some of the Od Field with some of the Even Field at the same time.

With interlace the Top Field starts to fade away then the Bottom Field is drawn.

But Prograsive the two Fields are mixed togather all the way down the screen.
Why does it not look like a Dabble Image?

[edDV]

OK so it will do me better to pick a De Interlace option from the dropdown list then set it to OFF.
What would be a good option to pick SLOW?
I mean for a show like Land Of The Lost that is Interlaced.

It would be better to keep it interlaced but Handbreak can't do that. I'm looking for other free alternatives. Sony Vegas Movie Studio 10 Platinum (~$70) offers two AVC codecs that will do interlace h.264.
http://www.amazon.com/Sony-Vegas-Movie-Studio-Platinum/dp/B003L51CZ8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF...7561682&sr=8-1

Best you can do in Handbreak is deinterlace for "Land of the Lost". "Slower" would be the highest quality setting but also take the longest time. Test slow and slower on a scene with action.

You will also be testing bit rate. I suggest you start with constant quality=20, then try 500Kbps that you want and compare on your computer, media player and TV.

So in summary, your 720x480 60i MPeg2 VOB will be converted to 720x480 30p (29.97p actually) h.264.

back later on telecine...

[nymph4444]

I do have VLC and it has a converter I used it before.
And it lets me comvert to MP4 H264 but one thing I did not know is the this?

It has in the video Bit Rate and Frame Rate and Audio and things like this to set it has De Interlace check Box.
If I leave this with no Check in the Box am I right it will not de interlace it and just keep it as is?

[edDV]

I do have VLC and it has a converter I used it before.
And it lets me comvert to MP4 H264 but one thing I did not know is the this?

It has in the video Bit Rate and Frame Rate and Audio and things like this to set it has De Interlace check Box.
If I leave this with no Check in the Box am I right it will not de interlace it and just keep it as is?

I use VLC as a player and streamer but am less familiar with its conversion options. I suspect Handbreak is better for this task.

Need to know what encoder VLC is using. Sounds like it has less control than Handbrake. The good thing about Handbrake is it is well documented so you know what the controls do. Most h.264 GUIs sit on top of x264 but with various deinterlace or inverse telecine methods.

[nymph4444]

Well Handbrake is good for converting interlaced videos.

What if I use videos like Buck Rogers 1970's TV show they are Prograsive I checked in Media Info.

I can set Decomb to Auto and it will ony De Interlace if it see it has to. So with this type of show it will see it does not have to and wont.

But the other De Interlace dropdown box you can't turn off so what do I do?

Do you get me now?

[edDV]

Well Handbrake is good for converting interlaced videos.

What if I use videos like Buck Rogers 1970's TV show they are Prograsive I checked in Media Info.

I can set Decomb to Auto and it will ony De Interlace if it see it has to. So with this type of show it will see it does not have to and wont.

But the other De Interlace dropdown box you can't turn off so what do I do?

Do you get me now?

OK good to know you ran mediainfo on Buck Rogers. Can you post results here?

I'll return with a telecine (hard/soft) discussion later this evening. No time now.

Meanwhile I suggest you encode "Land of the Lost" with Handbrake and test deinterlace and various bit rate results on your displays. Learn one program. Then you can transfer your experience to others.

[edDV]

I can set Decomb to Auto and it will ony De Interlace if it see it has to. So with this type of show it will see it does not have to and wont.

But the other De Interlace dropdown box you can't turn off so what do I do?

Do you get me now?

Yes you can turn it off.

If you want to test Decomb first go ahead. Then you can compare that to Deinterlace later.

[nymph4444]

Buck Rogers in mediainfo tells me

Container mpeg-ps
Video 720x480 4:3
Frame Rate 29.97

it did not tell me if it was Prograsive or Interlace I thought it did.
But one thing if it says frame rate 29.97 does this meen it was already Teleceneed?

And if you can never turn OFF De Interlace in Handbrake does this meen it is only to be used with Interlaced Video Files?

And what did you meen when you told me first learn one program before another?

[edDV]

So, did you try to decomb or deinterlace "Land of the Lost"?

That is before we proceed to telecine?

Decomb


Deinterlace

[edDV]

Buck Rogers in mediainfo tells me

Container mpeg-ps
Video 720x480 4:3
Frame Rate 29.97

it did not tell me if it was Prograsive or Interlace I thought it did.
But one thing if it says frame rate 29.97 does this meen it was already Teleceneed?

And if you can never turn OFF De Interlace in Handbrake does this meen it is only to be used with Interlaced Video Files?

And what did you meen when you told me first learn one program before another?

That matches Lordsmurf's prediction that the "Buck Rogers" DVD is encoded interlace rather than progressive even though it was shot on film. That means it is hard telecined like a TV broadcast.

It would help if you posted all the General and Video information from Media Info. You can cut and paste from the View - Text summary. For example, this is the info from an SD digital TV broadcast of "Stargate" on the SyFy cable channel.

General
ID : 1
Complete name : E:\110609015645.ts
Format : MPEG-TS
File size : 69.7 MiB
Duration : 3mn 5s
Overall bit rate : 3 150 Kbps

Video
ID : 2241 (0x8C1)
Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
Format : MPEG Video
Format version : Version 2
Format profile : Main@Main
Format settings, BVOP : Yes
Format settings, Matrix : Default
Codec ID : 2
Duration : 3mn 5s
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 2 865 Kbps
Nominal bit rate : 15.0 Mbps
Width : 528 pixels
Height : 480 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 4:3
Frame rate : 29.970 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.377
Stream size : 63.2 MiB (91%)

You can turn off deinterlace in Handbrake. Are you referring to the weave? Weave is the result of showing field 1 and field 2 as a progressive frame. They normally are sent sequentially.

I'm suggesting you learn and test Handbreak before trying conversion in other programs like VLC. The experience you gain with Handbrake will help you understand a less documented program like VLC.

[edDV]

...
And I re Read about Detelecene and I get it now if they take Film at 24 fps and put it on TV at 29.97 fps the frame rate will not match so they have to ad frames.

They add fields as I showed above. As Jagabo has said, if you simply duplicate every forth film frame, playback will be very jerky.

Remember this? You need to understand this chart. This is how 4 film frames are converted to 10 "hard telecined" video fields (5 video frames).

[Attachment 7279 - Click to enlarge]

[edDV]

If it is Hard Telecene they Copy frames and put them in.
If it is Soft Telecene they just use Flags that tell the DVD or Video or whatever to show a frame longer.

Hard telecine means the video is stored on the DVD as interlace video with the repeat fields present. If you advance the video one frame at a time (say in Virtualdub*) during a scene with motion, you will see a sequence of three complete film frames then two mixed frames where the two fields are from different film frames.

Soft telecine means the film frames are split into fields and stored on the DVD disc as two fields per film frame. This type of DVD is called "progressive" because when the two film fields are weaved, the result is a progressive frame. When a progressive DVD is played with the player set to 480i (composite, S-Video analog component or HDMI out), the fields are read off the DVD as a telecine field sequence at 59.94 fields per second (29.97 fps). When a progressive DVD is played with the player set to 480p (analog component or HDMI out), the film frames are played in a two then three frame repeat sequence at 59.94 frames per second. If you advance the video one frame at a time (say in Virtualdub*), you will see a sequence of progressive frames with no split fields.


*Virtualdub must have access to an MPeg2 codec. You can also play a VOB directly in VLC with single frame advance using the frame advance button (see this thread https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/335478-VLC-how-to-view-final-frame). You might think you could inspect telecine fields on your DVD player but instead most DVD players will inverse telecine to prevent you from seeing the split fields.


The VLC frame advance button allows stepping through hard telecine patterns. The frame shown is from Stargate.

[edDV]

I would like Soft but Handbrake just has Costum Default OFF
What do I use?

I know this is just used if I have something that is Filmed.

Since both "Land of the Lost" and "Buck Rogers" are hard telecined you don't get to do that.

Instead you would have to attempt "Detelecine" (inverse telecine) but that won't work with "Land of the Lost" since it is mostly shot with TV cameras. It may or may not work with "Buck Rogers" depending on how it was edited. Most likely, the telecine pattern is broken at most edit points.


PS: I tested the Handbrake "Detelecine" on my hard telecine "Stargate" clip and it worked well. You might want to try it on "Buck Rogers". Note that Constant Quality 20 resulted in a bit rate of 608 kbps for this clip.

General
Complete name : P:\0p - move\SG-110609015645-1.m4v
Format : MPEG-4
Format profile : Base Media / Version 2
Codec ID : mp42
File size : 17.2 MiB
Duration : 3mn 7s
Overall bit rate : 772 Kbps
Encoded date : UTC 2011-06-09 13:58:27
Tagged date : UTC 2011-06-09 14:03:42
Writing application : HandBrake 0.9.5 2011010300

Video
ID : 1
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : Main@L3.0
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 4 frames
Codec ID : avc1
Codec ID/Info : Advanced Video Coding
Duration : 3mn 7s
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 608 Kbps
Width : 528 pixels
Height : 480 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 4:3
Frame rate mode : Variable
Frame rate : 24.825 fps
Minimum frame rate : 0.934 fps
Maximum frame rate : 29.970 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.097
Stream size : 13.6 MiB (79%)
Writing library : x264 core 112
Encoding settings : cabac=1 / ref=2 / deblock=1:0:0 / analyse=0x1:0x111 / me=hex / subme=6 / psy=1 / psy_rd=1.00:0.00 / mixed_ref=0 / me_range=16 / chroma_me=1 / trellis=0 / 8x8dct=0 / cqm=0 / deadzone=21,11 / fast_pskip=1 / chroma_qp_offset=-2 / threads=3 / sliced_threads=0 / nr=0 / decimate=1 / interlaced=0 / constrained_intra=0 / bframes=2 / b_pyramid=2 / b_adapt=1 / b_bias=0 / direct=1 / weightb=0 / open_gop=0 / weightp=2 / keyint=240 / keyint_min=23 / scenecut=40 / intra_refresh=0 / rc_lookahead=40 / rc=crf / mbtree=1 / crf=20.0 / qcomp=0.60 / qpmin=3 / qpmax=51 / qpstep=4 / ip_ratio=1.40 / aq=1:1.00
Encoded date : UTC 2011-06-09 13:58:27
Tagged date : UTC 2011-06-09 14:03:42
Color primaries : BT.601-6 525, BT.1358 525, BT.1700 NTSC, SMPTE 170M
Transfer characteristics : BT.709-5, BT.1361
Matrix coefficients : BT.601-6 525, BT.1358 525, BT.1700 NTSC, SMPTE 170M

[jagabo]

Buck Rogers in mediainfo tells me

Container mpeg-ps
Video 720x480 4:3
Frame Rate 29.97

That matches Lordsmuf's prediction that the "Buck Rogers" DVD is encoded interlace rather than progressive

In my experience, when MediaInfo reports 29.97 fps without indicating interlaced and a field order, it means the video is encoded 23.976 fps progressive with pulldown flags.