HDCP strippers

[oldfart13]

Found some video for those cheap capture cards on Ebay that ignore HDCP:

HD72A


HD72B
[/QUOTE]

[arielbp]

I am new to this forum, and after reading this thread I have ordered from Amazon a CVID BG-520 HDMI splitter.

I did not connect it yet, but assuming it does work and will strip DHCP as forum members have testified, will I be able to connect its output to the new Hauppauge Rocket (see link below), and record on SD card without DHCP artifacts ?


The Rocket ( http://www.engadget.com/2013/11/01/haupppauge-pvr-rocket/ ) is not available yet, but has been announced, and if I read the specifications from the photo of the box on the Hauppauge web site, I can see the following description of inputs:


HDMI from Xbox, PC Game sysems or other
HDMI sources without HDCP
Composite video in from PS3 with stereo audio


I know this is far from an exact spec, from from the HDMI specifications coming out of those game consoles, do you think it will also be able to record the output of the BG-520 when connected to a HD or non-HD cable box ?


Thanks
Arielbp

[oldfart13]

I was looking at the Rocket too but it's description is too sketchy at this point to tell much of anything. Best to wait until I can see an actual unit before replying...

[jagabo]

will I be able to connect its output to the new Hauppauge Rocket (see link below), and record on SD card without DHCP artifacts ?

Yes. (BTW, it's HDCP, not DHCP).

fill a 16GB thumb drive with about four hours of 1080p footage.

I hope that's not the max quality. That's only about 8 Mb/s.

[oldfart13]

Well, it's the 17th and still no data on this thing?

Okay, unboxing and specs here:

http://gotgame.com/2013/11/15/hauppauge-hd-pvr-rocket-unboxing-specs/

Looks like it can do up to 18 MBps which is higher than the HDPVR2! Wonder if there is going to be a fix then for the HDPVR2 to also go that high?

[jagabo]

Hauppauge has information at their site:
http://hauppauge.com/site/products/data_hdpvr_rocket.html

Newegg now shows Dec. 1 as the expected due date.

They claim up to 18 Mb/s. They really need to bump that up to 30 Mb/s or more when using a cheap hardware encoder. And they're still stuck at 1080p30 max.

[oldfart13]

Amazon says the device will be available on Monday the 18th. Why 30 MBps? Seems like overkill or it would be for recording TV if the source is satellite at 10 MBps or less. Dunno about gameplay. Never tried that. How long will a 16 GB stick last at MP4 18 MBps I wonder?

[jagabo]

Amazon says the device will be available on Monday the 18th. Why 30 MBps?

There's a noticeable difference in quality between ~15 and 30 Mb/s with the cheap encoder chips used in these devices. Even when recording lower bitrate cable/satellite sources.

How long will a 16 GB stick last at MP4 18 MBps I wonder?

About 2 hours.

[vhelp]

assuming 16g storage is the limit for the Rocket, that may not be enough for gamers lasting much longer, like 8+ hours. i wonder what games they are targeting for this 16g limit.

Why 30 MBps? Seems like overkill or it would be for recording TV if the source is satellite at 10 MBps or less.

from the Rocket's encoder point of view, the capturing is lossless and then encoded to lossy, h264. it does not "copy" the tv streams, it still captures it in realtime, thus capturing from a lossless point of view. thats why, what jagabo stated is true, that 13.5/15/18 Mbps is not enough, 30 Mbps (though even higher) would be better.

[Brad]

They list the thumb drive compatibility as 1GB to 32GB and then under the same heading say it supports "any self powered external storage drive with at least 2.5Mbytes/sec transfer rate".

Have you guys actually seen low bitrate H.264 satellite sources, or are you just basing it on bad cable channels? The satellite providers think a smeared 4Mbps image is HD.

[jagabo]

Maybe FAT32 only up to 32 GB? Larger sizes with NTFS?

[vhelp]

Have you guys actually seen low bitrate H.264 satellite sources, or are you just basing it on bad cable channels? The satellite providers think a smeared 4Mbps image is HD

i agree. but there is no such thing as an artifact-free video source from cable providers. they are all heavily compressed. the days of analog is over and now digital and the consequence is digital compression. i even tried testing this by searching around for lossless video sources to d/l and encode to see how compressions fair but i haven't found anything yet. actaully, i found one HD source that close to near lossless but i believe it was a leaked out source from the providers. i'm still looking for that link in my notes somewhere. anyway. another source, but lossless is buckbunny, the only source i could find (png) but it is mostly bright/white content. so it is not something i would want to test under that issue. but tears of steel is a perfect source but is no longer avail in png, only mov ogg and avc. i wold prefer a 720x480 if it were avail in png.

[jagabo]

Sita Sings the Blues is available as 1080p uncompressed:
https://archive.org/details/Sita_Sings_the_Blues

[SHS]

Amazon says the device will be available on Monday the 18th. Why 30 MBps?

There's a noticeable difference in quality between ~15 and 30 Mb/s with the cheap encoder chips used in these devices. Even when recording lower bitrate cable/satellite sources.

How long will a 16 GB stick last at MP4 18 MBps I wonder?

About 2 hours.

More like 4 Hours
Beside I made post right here
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/359964-HD-PVR-Rocket-Portable-Video-Recorder

[SHS]

Maybe FAT32 only up to 32 GB? Larger sizes with NTFS?

Nope FAT32 can go up to 127GB it just format utility in 2000/XP/Vista/7 and 8 only allow up to 32GB.
Beside you be better with NTFS over FAT32 limitations file size which can't exceed 4GB any way

[jagabo]

Maybe FAT32 only up to 32 GB? Larger sizes with NTFS?

Nope FAT32 can go up to 127GB it just format utility in 2000/XP/Vista/7 and 8 only allow up to 32GB.

Yes, I know. But they may have said 32 GB because of that. I can't imagine any other reason why they would claim a 32 GB limit for thumb drives.

[SHS]

Maybe FAT32 only up to 32 GB? Larger sizes with NTFS?

Nope FAT32 can go up to 127GB it just format utility in 2000/XP/Vista/7 and 8 only allow up to 32GB.

Yes, I know. But they may have said 32 GB because of that. I can't imagine any other reason why they would claim a 32 GB limit for thumb drives.

That not what it said did you ever think that Size: from 1GB to 32GB Flash Drives is all they have tested so far and you can hook up a external hard disc as long as it is self powered external storage drive.

[oldfart13]

Yeah, I think the 64GB or larger flash drives may need to draw more power than the device is capable of outputting. I ran into this problem with USB 2.0 unpowered hubs running my 64GB USB 3.0 flash drive. In some cases, the drive fails to recognize, especially if another drive is also drawing power from the same hub. With a power source attached though I have no problems at all. I wonder if this device also has the delay that all the other HDPVRs suffer from? Well, might be worth buying if they get these in stores here.

I can understand the need to cap at really high bit rates but especially for TV or other sources like VHS tape, there must be a limitation. You can't make it look any better so why bother? The source is just too poor IMO. Capping in 11 MBps from a source that is 4 - 10 MBps looks fine. Capping at 14 MBps doesn't look any better to these tired old eyes at regular viewing distances (8 -10 feet from a 40" Sony Bravia). Maybe your sources are different than mine though...

[jagabo]

I can understand the need to cap at really high bit rates but especially for TV or other sources like VHS tape, there must be a limitation. You can't make it look any better so why bother?

Their competitors are capable of 30 to 60 Mb/s now for essentially the same price.

http://www.amazon.com/AVerMedia-Portable-Capture-Xbox360-60Mbps/dp/B00B2IZ3B0/
http://www.amazon.com/Elgato-Capture-PlayStation-Recorder-10025010/dp/B00840353W

There are definitely cases where you need more than 18 Mb/s.

[Brad]

You're sitting close to double the recommended THX viewing distance for a HDTV that size. Of course THX and SMPTE didn't base their recommendations on overcompressed signals; their distances are good for Blu-ray. I think anyone would have a tough time seeing a difference at that viewing angle.

[vhelp]

although i could be wrong, due to the nature of the hardware h264 encoder, it has to buffer and analize enough frames for the idr/gop length to process those frames without it dropping any and continue from that point onward, or something like that. so there is that intial delay. the other delay, which adds to the delay, i believe is related to remuxing from the original .ts source to the other m2ts or mp4 formats. due to the fact that i can't use the hauppauge suite on my desktop pc, i created my own custom hdpvr capture app (using the graphedit or graphstudio .grf file) which captures to the original .ts format, the initial startup delay is < 6 seconds at the hdpvr's load up (when you turn it on and feed it the first recording) and subsequent recording from that point on (if i stop and start another recording) are < 1 second delay. i also believe that the software suites are performing a reset every time, clearing the buffer and starting over, thus you get that < 6 second delay every time you start a new recording. i verified this on my netbook pc since i could install the hauppauge device and suite on that and have preview, etc. to my surprise and maybe a little coensidense, the app i made only gives < 1 second delay, every recording.

[jagabo]

although i could be wrong, due to the nature of the hardware h264 encoder, it has to buffer and analize enough frames for the idr/gop length to process those frames without it dropping any and continue from that point onward, or something like that. so there is that intial delay.

The Hauppauge Rocket (and the Avermedia Live Gamer Portable) are used as passthrough recorders. You watch the passthrough signal (with essentially no delay). You don't see the delayed capture.

[oldfart13]

I notice there is very little info on capturing TV or other video sources, only gameplay which is not my field of interest. The Elgato apparently still can't do Dolby Digital AC-3 as it down mixes everything to 2 channel. For me, that isn't good enough. And it doesn't do good with 480i sources which eliminates it as a recorder for my archive tape collection. However, it and the Avermedia do record in these ultra high bit rates so you have to wonder if the Hauppage devices are limited by software or hardware. Anyone tried the other capture software on the Hauppage?

Was looking at this device:

http://avertv.avermedia.com/AVerMediaPVR/products.asp

http://www.amazon.com/AVermedia-MTVGCAPHD-Game-Capture-XBOX360/dp/B00FMKWQUA/ref=sr_1_...rds=Aver+media

But there are no reviews. Amazon skirts the issue by saying it is for game capture but Aver Media says its for TV. Would like to be able to try this out as well but no in town source.

Also noticed this comment in the Aver Media portable device Q&A

"Could I use this to record TV shows; will it work if I use it with my cable box?
This device isn't meant to do that, but with a bit of tweaking it works fine. But if that's your main concern, I'd buy a different device."

So, maybe not so hot for my purposes...

[oldfart13]

You're sitting close to double the recommended THX viewing distance for a HDTV that size. Of course THX and SMPTE didn't base their recommendations on overcompressed signals; their distances are good for Blu-ray. I think anyone would have a tough time seeing a difference at that viewing angle.

According to the chart here:

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/Article/How-Far-Should-I-Sit.php

I should be sitting about 8 feet away from the screen for 720p material. I went back and took a measurement and it looks like I was off by a couple feet. My couch is 8 feet from my source. Most of the stuff I watch is either overly compressed satellite signals in SD or HD or downloaded content in 720p, so this distance is fine. I also have visual impairment so, sitting closer won't make the picture look any better...in fact it looks worse since I cannot focus on close up objects, TV included...

[Brad]

Detail-wise yes; in terms of viewing angle no (SMPTE in particular seems to stress the importance of filling a large portion of your vision for "immersion"). But my point wasn't that your distance is bad for you, just that many of us sit closer so we may see losses between the original and the recording.

This Rocket discussion is an odd tangent for the HDCP stripper thread. I keep getting confused when my email subscription pops up.

[oldfart13]

assuming 16g storage is the limit for the Rocket, that may not be enough for gamers lasting much longer, like 8+ hours. i wonder what games they are targeting for this 16g limit.

Why 30 MBps? Seems like overkill or it would be for recording TV if the source is satellite at 10 MBps or less.

from the Rocket's encoder point of view, the capturing is lossless and then encoded to lossy, h264. it does not "copy" the tv streams, it still captures it in realtime, thus capturing from a lossless point of view. thats why, what jagabo stated is true, that 13.5/15/18 Mbps is not enough, 30 Mbps (though even higher) would be better.

So, what is going on then when we are recording from the satellite receiver? From the analogue outputs I can understand a conversion process going on but from the receiver signal (h264 on high def channels) out through the HDMI? It's all digital, so why would it need to convert again? 1's and 0's is all it's going to see. Some channels are better than others of course. Some of the movie channels are so bad, nothing will really improve them, higher bitrates or no... or maybe I am thinking of the HDPVR 2 which I have rather than the Rocket...

[chupaka]

assuming 16g storage is the limit for the Rocket, that may not be enough for gamers lasting much longer, like 8+ hours. i wonder what games they are targeting for this 16g limit.

I wonder who the heck is playing 8 hours continuously without a break ? My head would be If thats a 16GB card then one can change the thing for a new one and take a break for a change
We doing that and changing cards on our cameras and that doesn't bother anyone or are gamers so different ?

[Brad]

It's all digital, so why would it need to convert again?

HDMI is an uncompressed display standard; compressed bitstreams aren't supported like they are with Firewire. The satellite receiver decodes the video and then the Hauppauge has to take that giant Gbps stream and try to squeeze it back down again.

Compare:

• VirtualDub open file, direct stream copy
• VirtualDub open file, save uncompressed
• VirtualDub open file, save lossless
• VirtualDub open file, save MSU lossless with the option checked for "this went through a lossy MPEG step" (only small compression gains)
• VirtualDub open file, save x264 with various different parameters <--- Hauppauge goes somewhere in here

[oldfart13]

It's all digital, so why would it need to convert again?

HDMI is an uncompressed display standard; compressed bitstreams aren't supported like they are with Firewire. The satellite receiver decodes the video and then the Hauppauge has to take that giant Gbps stream and try to squeeze it back down again.

Compare:

• VirtualDub open file, direct stream copy
• VirtualDub open file, save uncompressed
• VirtualDub open file, save lossless
• VirtualDub open file, save MSU lossless with the option checked for "this went through a lossy MPEG step" (only small compression gains)
• VirtualDub open file, save x264 with various different parameters <--- Hauppauge goes somewhere in here

So, the Hauppage is still recording an analog stream from the HDMI is what you are saying? But what is being recorded to the satellite receiver hard drive? I remember ripping content from hard drives back in the day and keeping the resultant files (though they were Mpeg 2 and standard definition). Files sizes were actually quite small, 33 minutes was typically about 600 MB. The caps I did today at 14 MBps were about 6.5 GB per hour. Wish I knew the actual size of the files on the hard drive but I don't have a receiver with files that can be read by a computer so I'll never know. Sure wish I knew more about how the signal is being presented to the capture device. Still a lot better than captures from the component cables.

[jagabo]

So, the Hauppage is still recording an analog stream from the HDMI is what you are saying?

No, he's saying the HDMI capture device is recording uncompressed digital video frames. Compressing them again will add another round of compression artifacts.

But what is being recorded to the satellite receiver hard drive?

The "downloaded" compressed stream from the satellite.

PVR recorded HD channels from our digital cable service run about 5 GB per hour (MPEG 2 + AC3). Ie, they are sending about 12 Mb/s.