Sony Vegas movie project 4:3 ratio but it need to be 16:9 wide

[Limpsy]

Hi all.

To start with a little knowledge about what is behind the problem and sorry for not the best english.

I filmed a movie project 3-4 years ago and it is all filmed in 4:3 on DV tapes i did start the project back then but was stuck until know due to many things.
But i have now build a new editing desktop computer and looking for the right program which i belive is Sony Vegas 10 as i dont wanna use the money for premiere CS5 as i did that many years ago, so i will try Sony Vegas it has all i need from start to finish, I like it a lot but i doubt if it can hold my big project.

So the only thing holding me back to buy the editing software is because i would really love to change the aspect ratio in in my whole project from 4:3 to 16:9 to get rid of black bars on left and right side, if the bars were on top and bottom it would be ok but not at the sides as it totally ruins the setup and flow of the movie.

I have tried to edit old avi files in sony vegas that come from back when i used the premiere pro, though it was possible to change aspect ratio and get a good preview picture with right ratio then it is not the same after rendering, bars will still be there i tried to import the rendered clip to sony vegas and it has the bars so it is not my player, project is made to DV 4:3 widescreen and render settings is set to use the project settings, but still not possible for me to get rid of theese damn bars.

I really hope some have an idea about what can be done as it is really important to the projects succes i need to use it for DVD materiale entry/application for movie school.

have all the DV tapes and can capture all the materiale again if it helps

Best greetings

Limpsy

ps: i did read this thread about problems like mine but it is quite old and did not solve my problem - https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/265512-SONY-VEGAS-HELP!-Video-Aspect-Ratio-output

Output file: .avi

[aedipuss]

recapture the dv tapes and start a 4:3 project. it's that easy. the black bars are not on the tapes. do not try to make it into 16/9 - leave it as 4:3.

[Limpsy]

recapture the dv tapes and start a 4:3 project. it's that easy. the black bars are not on the tapes. do not try to make it into 16/9 - leave it as 4:3.

Ty for the quick answer, i am though a bit confused still and have a few questions if ok

I will do as you suggest but should it be a 4:3 widescreen (PAL DV Widescreen (720x576; 25,000 fps) project or just normal 4:3 (PAL DV (720x576; 25,000 fps)?

And i assume i will have to set the settings in capture as well?

Then after i have made the projects in all its form i will render output file (render as) it should be with the projects settings or do i not touch the custom setting? just default?

I am also not sure if i need to make the project NTSC or Pal?

Also i tried the dvd tool from Sony vegas I imported the file i rendered and seems the preview in the dvd tool played it in widescreen but with the two black bars one at the top on one at the bottom (which i dont mind as long as it dont ruin the picture) i just dont know if it would show like that on a widescreen tv were my dvd might be watched.

Greetings Limpsy

[edDV]

There is no need to recapture if the DV-AVI files are already on a hard disk.

Vegas and Premiere are similar in that there are three places where pixel aspect ratio (PAR) needs to be set correctly. Usually the default is 4:3 aspect ratio (PAR = 1.0926) for all three unless you change defaults.

Project Setting: DV choices are PAL DV (4:3) or PAL DV Widescreen (16:9)

Source Video Properties: Import your source video to a bin or to the timeline. Right click Properties.

If the project and source clip properties are 4:3 the clip will preview as 4:3. If the camera was set to wide but properties say 4:3, the picture will appear horizontally squeezed. In that case setting clip properties to wide will change the preview to letterbox 16:9. If your DV source was shot 4:3, both project and clip properties should show 4:3 with PAR = 1.0926.

Render as (export) settings: Most export templates are available as normal (4:3) or as "wide" (16:9). If your project and source clips are 4:3, a 4:3 export render is flagged as 4:3. If you choose a wide export template, the export is rendered with side pillars and flagged as 16:9.

[Limpsy]

There is no need to recapture if the DV-AVI files are already on a hard disk.

Vegas and Premiere are similar in that there are three places where pixel aspect ratio (PAR) needs to be set correctly. Usually the default is 4:3 aspect ratio (PAR = 1.0926) for all three unless you change defaults.

Project Setting: DV choices are PAL DV (4:3) or PAL DV Widescreen (16:9)

Source Video Properties: Import your source video to a bin or to the timeline. Right click Properties.

If the project and source clip properties are 4:3 the clip will preview as 4:3. If the camera was set to wide but properties say 4:3, the picture will appear horizontally squeezed. In that case setting clip properties to wide will change the preview to letterbox 16:9. If your DV source was shot 4:3, both project and clip properties should show 4:3 with PAR = 1.0926.

Render as (export) settings: Most export templates are available as normal (4:3) or as "wide" (16:9). If your project and source clips are 4:3, a 4:3 export render is flagged as 4:3. If you choose a wide export template, the export is rendered with side pillars and flagged as 16:9.

Thanks for the reply, extended explanation and time saver tip much appreciated I will use some time to try it out and to fully understand it. I did try to import one file to vegas and opened properties on the clip i made a image to show the details (gif.1)



The next image (jpeg) is from the preview option in vegas and also the same preview i get from DVD Architect when i import a rendered file changed in vegas, but i am not sure if the DVD will still show with black bars on the left and right side as well when showed on a widescreen tv and i cant really test it atm.



Best greetings

Limpsy

[edDV]

Let's understand your goal.

Do you want a 4:3 or 16x9 result?

Was your source shot 4:3 or 16:9 wide? Or is it a mix of both?

[aedipuss]

the source you pictured is 4:3 pal. if you render it to 4:3 pal mpeg-2 for dvd there will be no bars at all.

[Limpsy]

Let's understand your goal.

Do you want a 4:3 or 16x9 result?

Was your source shot 4:3 or 16:9 wide? Or is it a mix of both?

Your first question (no simple answer):
Optimal is 16:9 or 4:3 wide result (but no black bars on sides only at top or bottom or none at all)
The goal is to get it on a DVD so it can be shown at different film schools for admission on 16:9 lcd screens.
So the best option would be to make the final render file as 16:9 but if it is possible with these kind of DV files filmed in 4:3 i dont know, but all in all to make the project perfect it need to have no black bars at the left and right side when shown on the 16:9 screen black bars on top and bottom i can live with. If it is 4:3 wide or 16:9 really dont matter as long as the picture is still good and wide on thoose new screens.

To your second question: i am not 100% it is filmed in 4:3 but almost sure as the capture source was bought in year 1999 Panasonic.

I found this info about PAL and NTSC and as i can see my PAL data is with 576 linies i think might make a difference when talking wide screen vs letterbox as the resolution is better with 576 linies but i guess the capture had to have a certain reciever for the PAL data, dont know if this is usefull info.

"In Europe the PAL TV format, with its higher resolution than NTSC format means the quality issues of letterboxed or matted movies on TV is not as severe. There is also an extension to PAL, called PALplus, which allows specially equipped receivers to receive a PAL picture as true 16:9 with a full 576 lines of vertical resolution, provided the station employs the same system. Standard PAL receivers will receive such a broadcast as a 16:9 image letterboxed to 4:3, with a small amount of color noise in the black bars; this "noise" is actually the additional lines which are hidden inside the color signal. This system has no equivalent in analog NTSC broadcasting." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Widescreen)

[Limpsy]

the source you pictured is 4:3 pal. if you render it to 4:3 pal mpeg-2 for dvd there will be no bars at all.

Ok cool i will deffently try it out i am currently trying to make 4 preliminary test files for my brother to test on a Panasonic Plasma 52 inch with same DVD tool as vegas use as soon as the test results are in I will post them, if there are any additional test you all think i should try please let me know preliminary testing will start tonight (19/02-2011) at 2100 hours (GMT + 1:00) and also tomorrow at about 1200 hours (GMT + 1:00).

greetings Limpsy

[aedipuss]

on a 16/9 tv the 4:3 picture from the dvd should have black bars on the sides added by the tv, because there is no picture from the dvd there. there isn't any way to properly display any 4:3 picture in a 16/9 display without them.

[Limpsy]

on a 16/9 tv the 4:3 picture from the dvd should have black bars on the sides added by the tv, because there is no picture from the dvd there. there isn't any way to properly display any 4:3 picture in a 16/9 display without them.

Thanks for the answer but is it possible to move them to top and bottom to squeeze it to 4:3 wide?

I tried to render out a raw DV file i imported to vegas and the result was a MPG2 file for the that was only 5-10 mb size but i will still try it on the tv but doubt it works.

But if the PAL DV file has 576 lines (720x576x24) can that be used for widescreen as the resolution is higher then the NTSC version which is 480 lines (720x480; 29,970 fps) ?

[aedipuss]

you can't magically make anything 16/9 if it's filmed at 4:3.

your options to convert it to 16/9 are either to add black bars on the SIDES or crop off the top and bottom of the video which usually results in people losing their heads and feet.

[zoobie]

^ or just the bottom if they're losing their heads...

[edDV]

You aren't going to fool a film school into thinking your 4:3 material was shot 16:9. Unless you framed for 16:9 while shooting 4:3 (e.g. tape strip top and bottom on viewfinder LCD), "conversion to 16:9" is going to have obvious artifacts and framing problems. A film school will respect 4:3 with side bars on a wide display because that is how 4:3 is supposed to be presented*. They will consider a hacked or stretched 16:9 conversion to be an insult. A sudden change in pixel aspect ratio (horizontal stretch) is as unacceptable as a jump cut.


http://www.thelooniverse.com/movies/west/aspectratio/aspectratio.html


Note the tape masking a 16:9 frame on the director's 4:3 monitor.

4:3 aspect video is supposed to be shown with side pillars (aka "curtains" as used in a cinema).



Any effort to reframe 4:3 into 16:9 has immediate problems such as cropped heads and bodies and will affect the intended safe action area.

How would you crop the above image to 16:9 without destroying the intended framing by the field director/cameraman? You would either lose the cliff face and waterline, or you would lose the top of the lighthouse (especially on overscanned TV sets). Any attempt to crop this image destroys the director's intent and film schools take that very seriously, almost criminal.



There are also serious technical issues when cropping SD 4:3 video to 16:9. The frames must be deinterlaced and upscaled vertically. This seriously lowers the image quality especially when viewed on a large HD screen. Vegas can do it but other deinterlace and upscale solutions will result in better quality.

Let's stop here and ask are you trying to re-frame your 4:3 source material into 16:9?


* Have you ever seen a 4:3 film in a movie theater stretched wide to fill the screen? No you haven't.

[Limpsy]

Ty ED for explaining the problem about this 4:3 to 16:9 and i do understand what you are saying, i must admit i would love to convert it to 16:9 but i doubt it will be possible with this big project as it contains 100's of clips and they all need converting before the actual editing which in away is not a problem as i have not begun the editing yet but is it realistic?

Thanks a lot your answer, explanation and the time you used to explain this it is highly appreciated something i also feared.

Ye it was pretty much what i had done i changed settings and used the crop feature and reframed it for 16/9 inside vegas to match, but as you say i loose a lot of the image.

In this case i am the director as well as camara man but you are absolutly right and i do understand what you are saying it destroy the angle and aesthetics of how it was meant to be shown, though it is more a documentary movie so it would not have the biggest impact on certain test clips but overall i think it could be a big problem and gives a flat feeling to the picture.

The reason i wanted to do this is because i think the experience of the movie is better in 16:9 then in 4:3 unless it is showed on a 4:3 screen, but of course not if it means destroying the picture.

I would like to thank you for pointing the problem out with changing it from 4:3 to 16:9 when looking at it from a film school point of view, i must admit i had gone blind in trying to change this image that i did not really give it much thoughts, but i do understand what you are saying and i agree.

Regards you mentioning the deinterlace and upscale it sounds interesting but can you do this with the final rendered file or must it happend before editing?

I must admit my goal is to get this materiale to 16:9 if possible as it would have the best aesthetics and flow in the movie no doubt, but if it means destroying the picture i will agree almost criminal.

And no i never seen a 4:3 movie stretched in the teater

Just to make clear i am very happy for all this input it will makes a huge impact on my decision and i am glad for your advice, before i shoot my self in the foot

Regards test results i am still waiting for my brother.