Dar, sar...

[drgt]

Because 716x424 is the frame size.

By "frame size" you mean SAR right?
And according to DAR=SAR x PAR, and because....

Neither of those AVI files has PAR/DAR flags (note where GSpot says "par 1.000 (1:1)". The two files have the same frame size so they should play back the same on the TV.

... PAR=1 => DAR = SAR. (In these 2 files).

Divx Converter is telling you the frame size after adjusting for PAR/DAR flags.

So, I am confused:
What is to adjust, if PAR=1?

Your 716x424 AVI files with square pixels should still both have displayed identically and come close to filling the 16:9 screen. But the aspect ratio of the picture contents should be wrong -- everything should look too tall.

Only the DivX file fills the screen and that is because I did not let converter do 718x300 like it wanted to do by default and changed it manually to 716x424.
The point here is that only this DivX file is telling the truth about its size. The avi file as well as the mkv file LIE about their dimensions!

[jagabo]

None of the files or programs is lying to you.

The image you posted from Divx Converter is showing the original MKV file. It says the frame size (SAR) is 716x424 and the DAR is 1016x424 (~2.35:1). If you could watch that video on your TV it should give a very wide picture with large letterbox bars top and bottom. That is the way the video is meant to be seen. IMDB indicates The Devil's Advocate was shot at 2.35:1. Note how Divx Converter wants to convert to 718x300 with square pixels (~2.35:1 SAR and DAR). My guess is this was originally from an anamorphic 16:9 PAL DVD with a 720x576 frame and whoever converted it removed all black borders (4 pixels from the width and 152 from the height).

Original DVD 720x576 SAR (all images half size):

Note the circles aren't perfectly round.

The way it's supposed to be displayed on a 16:9 HDTV (1024x576):

Note the circles are now perfectly round.

The MKV file (black bars from the DVD removed):


The MKV file corrected for PAR/DAR:


But the HDTV screen is 16:9 so the image on the TV screen should be letterboxed just like in the DVD 1024x576 case.

When you converted to AVI you kept the frame size 716x424, but flagged the videos as square pixel. If the picture in those videos fills the frame they should come close to filling the 16:9 TV's screen but the picture should look stretched vertically. Unless the program cropped the left and right edges of the frame from the source and resized back to 716x424, leaving a 16:9 picture. In that case the picture should nearly fill your 16:9 TV with no distortion. It's also possible the programs letterboxed the 2.35:1 picture into the 716x424 frame (~716x304 picture with letterbox bars to fill out the frame). But you seem to indicate that isn't the case.

[drgt]

I see what happened now:

If you recall, I could not open the converted mkv avi file in VD due to that error, but, although I could not get the exact frame, I took snapshots via VLC.

OJOSoft converted the mkv to avi keeping the SAR of 716/424. However, this size SAR INCLUDES black bars it added to top and bottom. So, it correctly reports PAR=1, and that is why GSpot reports DAR=SAR.

Correct me if I am wrong here: My player sees this 716x424 box and of course as far as it is concerned, the black bars are picture too.

So far so good. Now 716/424= 1.68 which is close but not exactly to 16/9 that my TV is (82.3x46.3). So logically, there should be some uncovered area, right?

But with the player set at 16/9 the entire screen is covered and the black bars have 7 cm thickness, exactly as it was measured in the attached picture. (That is an actual measurement, it was not filled by me).
With the player set at 4:3, the black bars become 10 cm thick and the picture looses slightly from its sides. (No vertical bars added).
(Note: TV set at 16/9 for both of the above. There is a negletable 2mm vertical bar on the right side only in both of the above.)

[jagabo]

Correct me if I am wrong here: My player sees this 716x424 box and of course as far as it is concerned, the black bars are picture too.

Yes.

So far so good. Now 716/424= 1.68 which is close but not exactly to 16/9 that my TV is (82.3x46.3). So logically, there should be some uncovered area, right?

Not necessarily. Most TVs overscan the image so you don't see the outer edges of the frame. Typically by about 3 percent on each side. That would be just about the right amount to hide the letterbox bars from displaying a 1.68:1 video on a 1:78:1 TV. But the images you posted earlier make it look like your TV only overscans a tiny amount at the top and bottom.

[drgt]

But the images you posted earlier make it look like your TV only overscans a tiny amount at the top and bottom.

Yes, according to pictures in post 12 (4 lines on top and 3 on bottom). But that seems to change (see post 14 where we have overscanning to the left also).

Now with this 716x424 avi, the better picture is achieved with the player set at 16/9, while in post 12, at 4/3.
Why is that?






If it is not too much trouble, could you post 3 avi's with that measuring image at the following SAR?

• 720x576
• 768x432
• 716x424

(All at PAR=1)
or better yet tell me how you create them? Can I use the ones you send me to make any dimensions I like in VD for example, and how?

Thanks a lot.


P.S. I 'll try another run with DivX Converter. This time I will choose a HD profile. The program defaults to original mkv resolution 1016x424, but following your advise, I want to do a mod 16. Which of the following should I choose and why?

• 768x320
• 960x400
• 1152x480

(quality matters, file size does not, as long as it is necessary for quality).

[jagabo]

Yes, according to pictures in post 12 (4 lines on top and 3 on bottom). But that seems to change (see post 14 where we have overscanning to the left also).

My conclusion with that is that the player expects a 16:9 image to use a 720x576 frame (probably because that's the size DVDs use). In post 12 the frame size was 704x576 so the player was probably pillarboxing the frame with 8 pixel wide borders at the left and right. So the pillarbox bar was cut off by the overscan. In post 14, with a 720x576 frame, the player was not adding any borders. So now the picture runs all the way to the edges and the TV's overscan was cutting of part of the picture at the left. Note how the right border on the TV is smaller too (10 vs 18 mm).

Now with this 716x424 avi, the better picture is achieved with the player set at 16/9, while in post 12, at 4/3.
Why is that?

That appears to be a bug with your player.

If it is not too much trouble, could you post 3 avi's with that measuring image at the following SAR?

• 720x576
• 768x432
• 716x424

(All at PAR=1)
or better yet tell me how you create them?

You can make your own in VirtualDub. Just open one of mine, use the Resize filter to change the size, select Xvid to compress (the default PAR is square, 1:1), then Save as AVI.

That won't give you pixel for pixel mapping of the overscan reticles and the square box in the middle may not be square if you just resize to some random size. If you want to keep the reticles pixel-for-pixel you can grab a frame from one of my videos and export a frame to an image editor. Add borders to the frame, then cut/paste the reticles to the new edges of the frame. If you want a square box in the middle just make a square with the editor. Open the image in VirtualDub, set the source frame rate to 0.03, the output frame rate to 25 fps, and encode. That will give you a ~30 second video at 25 fps.

Most Divx/DVD players will not play video files with a width larger than 720 pixels, or a height larger than 576 pixels. So some of your proposed frame sizes probably won't work in your player.

[drgt]

You can make your own in VirtualDub. Just open one of mine, use the Resize filter to change the size, select Xvid to compress (the default PAR is square, 1:1), then Save as AVI.

Thanks

Most Divx/DVD players will not play video files with a width larger than 720 pixels, or a height larger than 576 pixels. So some of your proposed frame sizes probably won't work in your player.

Yep! Absolutely right.

Should I choose 576x240 then?
(You may have additional suggestions reading the attached.)


(I do not know if this info should be posted in the Player models section...)

[jagabo]

Should I choose 576x240 then?

For what purpose?

[drgt]

To make another run on the DivX Converter of that mkv video.

See end of post 35.

[jagabo]

I'd recommend 720x304 so you don't lose too much resolution.

[drgt]

That's Mod8 with 1.16% AR error.

So the general rule of thumb is to stay as close as possible to original resolution with mod16 or mod8 and AR error no more than plus or minus ___ ?

[jagabo]

That's Mod8 with 1.16% AR error.

720x304 is mod 16 on both axis:

16 * 45 = 720
16 * 19 = 304

The degree of the AR error is debatable. 720x304 is 2.368:1. The movie is listed as 2.35:1. That is a ~0.8 percent error. But with a DVD source you can't be sure whether the 16x9 image is contained in the full 720x576 frame or the inner 704x576. There seems to be some confusion over this. From what I've seen some movies use one, some the other, and some somewhere in between. Then you have the fact that someone converted that to a 716x424 MKV file. How did they come up with 716? Did they crop away part of the frame? Did they resize? And what about the 416 height? Did they simply crop away black borders? Probably. But they may also have cropped away a few scalines of the picture to get a more accurate AR.

So the general rule of thumb is to stay as close as possible to original resolution with mod16 or mod8 and AR error no more than plus or minus ___ ?

You have to fill that in yourself. Some programs will crop a little bit of the picture away, or add small borders, to keep the AR as close as possible with a mod 16 frame size. I don't worry about a 1 or 2 percent error. Some people do.

[drgt]

720x304 is mod 16 on both axis.

Opps, you 're right. I got distracted looking at perfect ratios.

The movie is listed as 2.35:1. That is a ~0.8 percent error.

I used the DivX Converter info.

[jagabo]

Divx Converter's aspect error report is based on their calculated 1016:424 DAR of the MKV file. Mine was based on the presumed 2.35:1 DAR of the movie.

[drgt]

I think we ... or better say YOU... have more than exhausted this issue! Very informative.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!!

Although, I think it is time to get away from burning disks and move to https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/329375-Media-Player

I would be more than interested to read your opinion.